Pilot Skills - Chute Vent/Hydrogen

[RearAdmiralZill]

That's just the nature of gun arcs, which is most likely why Hydrogen is more costly then Chute.

[HamsterIV]

I miss my crazy dancing pyramidion, dodging manticore volleys was awesome. The only thing I want mass to affect is the outcome of rams, vertical movement tools should scale up or down with the ship.

[Thomas]

Drag is the resistance of motion. Ultimately if affects the top speed a ship can reach. Reducing the drag increases the top speed, while increasing the drag reduces it. So my statement about the drogue chute slowing the acceleration is incorrect, it actually reduces the maximum falling speed.
http://gunsoficarus.com/community/forumarchive/discussion/1069/questions-on-thrust-drag-the-affects-of-speed-and-more/p1


Ship mass does not affect balloon damage from the tools, that is static. (Did some testing just to triple check). Although the testing revealed that the items do more balloon damage than I originally thought. It took 8 spanner hits to fully repair a split second of chute vent; which means it did between 280 and 320 damage. And 9 spanner hits to repair a split second of hydrogen (320-360 damage). This could be that the item activates for a minimum of 1 second, plus an additional 3 seconds after it's turned off. Although that still comes to 260 and 300 damage for chute vent and hydro respectively, so somethings not adding up. Maybe those are old numbers in the tool description and they've been updated? Kerosene and moonshine won't even damage the engines if they're only turned on for a split second (at least not enough for the damage meter to show up, which can happen on occasion).


Ship Stats

Ship	Armor	Health	Speed (m/s)	Acceleration (m/s2)	Turn Speed (degrees/s)	Turn Accel. (degrees/s2)	Vertical Speed (m/s)	Vertical Accel. (m/s2)	Mass (tonnes)
Goldfish	400	1100	40.11	3.5	13.99	7.99	16.99	3.25	150
Junker	700	500	26.01	4.3	16.18	15.24	17.06	3.00	125
Squid	230	850	47.00	5.50	18.95	20.00	17.00	4.00	115
Pyramidion	650	700	32.00	2.50	11.00	6.25	16.97	2.75	200
Galleon	800	1400	30.02	2.10	8.02	5.06	17.01	2.25	320
Spire	400	750	25.99	3.00	11.99	15.02	17.00	3.75	150
Mobula	600	700	28.00	4.25	14.02	3.5	17.01	7.5	120

Here's the ship stats just for reference (commandeered from my Squidsassin Guide). Green is top in that category, Red is worst. Blue is 2nd best, Orange is 2nd worst.


The big thing to note is the vertical speed and more importantly the acceleration. All the ships have roughly the same vertical speed, but their accelerations vary dramatically. This means the tool has a harder time showing noticeable results for the larger ships, but very noticeable results for the lighter ships. Not every ship is going to skyrocket upwards like the squid and mobula. I'm not asking for the tools to be powered up, just less destructive. You can use them for all the uppercutting, fleeing, and shooting above your enemies all you want currently. The reason players don't do that as much is because it's not very effective on most ships. I use hydro on my pyramidion occasionally, and the ship feels only slightly improved. Where if I use it on my squid, I rise and fall quite rapidly.

Long story short is that only some ships shoot up and down rapidly, while the other ships will experience a much less dramatic change in altitude. It's the ships that need to change altitude rapidly and frequently that suffer the most; as the other ships tend not to use these tools. There should be no reason to punish ships and playstyles that focus on vertical motion.


There is a high risk/high reward concept in a lot of aspects of this game; but then you have to turn your attention back to the other tools on the list. The risk/reward just isn't there in any of them but moonshine, who's damage is about on par with the balloon items, except it's under a lot more control (I see no reason that you shouldn't be able to use the balloon tools precisely). Kerosene can pretty much be left on all the time, and the same is almost true for the phoenix claw. Ships that turn slowly can keep up with even the squid if they use phoenix claw; I use it all the time when taking out maneuverable ships that try to slip around me. Kerosene on the other hand can also be used for ramming far more effectively than bumpers. It increases your speed -and- keeps you from rotating. I've used it to great effect, sometimes even flipping enemy ships 180 degrees if they weren't also using kerosene. It's become standard.


I realize I'm biased in my desire for chute vent and hydrogen to get some love, but there's also a lot of valid points in doing so. I'm also aware that there is a strong bias against such a change, as a lot of current builds and playstyles focus on naval ship combat, where players want their enemies to stay at roughly the same altitude as them. (Which I will henceforth refer to as a Khanian mentality)


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkhuWD9S73Q
 ((Actually quite an effective maneuver in GoIO too))

[redria]

Let's piece this together then.
As a young learning pilot most people avoid using tools, because it will damage your ship.
Next they will start using phoenix claw for short periods to get that quick turn, and they will like it and keep it around.
Next they may try kerosene or tar barrel after seeing someone else use it effectively.
The last thing a newer player will try doing regularly is use vertical tools. This is due primarily to 2 factors: the damage levels attached, and a Khanian mentality. It seems silly to wreck your own balloon to lose your own gun arcs, and most beginner builds tend towards guns with mostly straight forwards arcs (see: metamidion). This isn't to say being above someone doesn't work with these guns, just that it feels more natural to just get them at the same level.

For newer players the current stats keep most of the fighting on a Khanian level. This helps newer players get accustomed to the game, gunners get a chance to shoot regularly, pilots aren't thinking too hard about where an enemy ship is, everything is just on the table in front of them.

With more experienced players, we know how to use the vertical tools pretty effectively, to the point where not having a counter to the vertical tools will get you locked down pretty regularly. We are willing to use tools to get out of the plane of combat and make repairs/get in a better position. However, as you mention, it has a much greater effect on the ships with less mass. Something like a squid will rocket upwards, while a pyramidion moves more slowly. (I disagree that you barely notice hydrogen in a pyra - I usually feel like I'm soaring, but then I never play anything else, so any change is big) The way things currently are, there is no way a pyramidion could keep up and keep arcs with a rising squid unless the pyramidion anticipates it quickly and rises while using hydrogen. The pyra pilot knows the squid can't use too much hydrogen or risk losing its maneuverability, so he knows he has one shot to keep guns on the squid for the first pass. In response a squid could drop down under the pyra and take advantage of the lag time associated with using the tool.

Now let's make the tools not have a lag period and give them repairable damage.

In novice matches, I am envisioning these being some of the first tools used regularly, leading to matches where the gunners and gun loadouts are still set for a Khanian match, but the pilots are bobbing their ships up and down so much trying to dodge bullets that the gunners never get to shoot, and the engineers are only ever on the balloons.
Squids and mobulas quickly become the only close range ships as their ability to move up and down lets them keep out of the gun arcs of every other ship at close range.
The only way to counter this is to go long range and try to snipe from a position where you have arcs no matter what height your enemy is at.
The game becomes slower because now that the vertical evasion tool is a viable option for consistent use during a match, the pilot will focus more on dodging bullets than on directing appropriate fire. Anyone not using the tools will be left with no gun arcs because they can simply never maintain gun arcs.
Pilots bring both vertical tools to give themselves precise control over their vertical movement. This leaves them with one slot left: phoenix claw so they can quickly turn on enemies, or kerosene. Without using both kerosene and phoenix claw, pilots will lose the bravery to charge in knowing they can quickly recover from mistakes. The game begins to move away from CQC entirely as pilots and crews focus their attentions on defeating vertical motion.

Um. Maybe that is a little drastic. My point being, currently the squid is in a tough spot right now as the nimble ship. You can't make it too nimble, or it becomes overpowered. Too nimble and even the best pilots won't be able to prevent a squid sitting in behind them. As they are though, a good pilot can always get a squid in arcs (except maybe on galleon?) and take it out. Squids are the only ship I see needing better vertical motion.

As a side note, I actually like the tools having a lag timer. I can pop hydrogen then use phoenix claw for a super fast recovery by turning faster and rising faster at the same time. It sort of makes these tools a little bit more powerful if you ask me.

Long story short, the game plays in a semi-Khanian mindset, and the tools are designed to allow you to maneuver best within this mindset. The vertical tools give strategic thinkers the potential to (sorry) "rise above" such a mindset, but the game is trying to push you to engage an enemy at an altitude somewhat comparable to your own. This is why there are no guns that default point straight up or down. Buff the vertical tools and you make a game set in a semi-Khanian mindeset that can only be played by thinking anti-Khanian. If you can only play a game effectively by using strategies counter to how the devs designed the game, something is wrong. Squids do need a small buff to be more viable in higher level play, but this isn't the answer. At least not to me.

*edit* I love the term Khanian too, and I used it liberally. I hope you don't mind. 

[Crafeksterty]

We know how to use chute vent and Hydrogine and moonshine people. Burst. We know.

But were not using them OFTEN enough. Were not playing with them.



Pheonix claw is easily used almost everytime. On a mobula. I use it all the time whenever im doing what is considered a hard turn for the mobula. For the spire, i use pheonix when switching split targets or turns that are 90 angle. And that is alot.


Now place that in perspective with tools such as TAR, or MOONSHINE, KYROSINE and PHEONIX. Vent and Hydro are VERY bursty. Which i think in design it actually fits but its not being played with. I just wonder how the game plays out when you play with the vertical meneuvering as much as people play with turns and speed.

[redria]

I use hydrogen in almost every single engagement. If I get in close range, if there is any chance of sustained fire on me, I pop it and go up, then use my spot to play shots down on my enemy or switch to the other target while sitting on the initial one. There's a reason I refuse to bring tar barrel- I feel helpless every match that I play without hydrogen.

[Kestril]

Yes. Yes we are playing with them. Lots.

I usually run with hydrogen, chute vent, and/or claw or kerosine on anything but a galleon. I don't see what's wrong with the tool.  I don't think the lag times should be touched. After all, it will take a moment for the helium to dissipate after you flood your balloon. Likewise, it will take a few seconds for the balloon to re-inflate after venting most of the air out. So in terms of that, the delay times after deactivation make sense.

I also like the fact that the different ships react differently to the tools. It gives some variety and allows for unique, ship-specific combinations about how you want to fly. If you're a ramming pyramidion. Grab some moonshine and impact bumpers. Want a couple of options to get out of dodge as a mobula? Take some helium or a chute vent. Its the unique nature of each ship that makes them so exciting and different to play. It's also the reason why I'm not that good with a goldfish. That ship is much better in the horizontal whereas I prefer some vertical movement. (which is why I'm such a fan of the junker)

I think the helium/vent are nice where they are now. Highly rewarding, but also a very high risk and not to be abused. I can't count the number of times I've helium'd over a pyramidion going for a ram, only to descend and rake their engines with the starboard guns.

Maybe the opposite needs to happen? Maybe the other tools need to be more punishing and rewarding. Maybe the claw should damage the engines faster, but give an insane amount of turning power.




 

[Ariden]

Now that we're on the topic of squids, I'd like to add some of my observations.

I think that a Squid pilot ALWAYS needs a vertical tool, without one the ship would be inflexible in combat. These tools I use generally for dodgeing the guns of the opponent. Recently (in the name of achievements) I have been taking Droge Chute rather than Hydrogen, which causese me to fall in case I need to recover from the enemy's attack. However I noticed that when I fall, I spend far more time below combat than intended. My crew fixes everything before I can even get close to the height of the combat, and usually I spend up to 30 seconds rising up with the Squid, telling them 'patience...', while watching my ally die in a 2v1 above me.

So yes, on a Squid I can say that bringing Hydrogen is the most beneficial choice. Any falling tool such as Droge Chute or Chute Vent are not beneficial in the least.

[HamsterIV]

I used to be a helium/vent fiend, but since the mass changes I have found that kerosine and tar are better for getting a pyra out of trouble.  The damage the items do to the ship did not factor in to my change in escape tools but rather the lack of benefit I received form it.

[Wundsalz]

I used to be a helium/vent fiend, but since the mass changes I have found that kerosine and tar are better for getting a pyra out of trouble.  The damage the items do to the ship did not factor in to my change in escape tools but rather the lack of benefit I received form it.

There are a lot of uncomfortable situations one can slip out of with sudden altitude adjustments where neither kerosine nor tar can help you. I personally think hydro to be one of the most powerful steering tools for tactical relocations. It can hardly be compared and definitely not be substituted by kero/shine/claw/tar as it serves an entirely different purpose. Actually, it literally operates in another dimension.

[Thomas]

Redria brought up some great points, although I'm going to flip them around for my side, because I can. Lag time I'm less concerned about, although it's still a big problem, as Ariden re-emphasized. (chute vent makes you fall faster, drogue chute makes you fall slower. Interestingly I almost got them mixed up when I started the thread. xD).

Anyway, lets imagine a situation where the damage to balloon is reduced, and the lag time is gone. Ships are quite a bit more maneuverable now. Combat becomes a lot more dynamic. In the early matches, new pilots may or may not overtly abuse these tools to the frustration of their crew and enemies. Already they can use the kero/shine and phoenix claw to make their our crew miss too much. Suddenly you have more playstyles opening up, different tactics being employed. Currently those tools aren't used a lot, so learning pilots don't bother with them. It just enforces the khanian mentality. You could say that more experienced pilots use the tools for greater effect and make good use of the vertical space; but how often do you really see that happen?

Take a look at some competitive play. Most of the time is spent fairly level, trying to keep their enemy dead ahead. They may duck down behind cover or try to rise into/above clouds, but combat occurs head to head. Even when using guns with great downward arcs, they will have their ship follow the sinking enemy and try to keep level.


Does the delay make sense? Not particularly. Especially when you look at moonshine, kerosene and the phoenix claw. How do these tools start and stop instantly? In fact, how does the phoenix claw work at all? If you dump fuel into your system, how long should it really take to take effect? How long will it persist after you stop? I can see hydrogen damaging the balloon by over-inflation/pressure build up/whatever, but why would a chute vent do that? You're just letting air escape in a controlled fashion. Or is the character actually cutting holes in the balloon? Shouldn't balloon damage in general help you descend faster in that situation?


At a certain point reality has to take a back seat to gameplay. From my perspective, hydrogen and chute vent are highly specific tools that deal an excessive amount of balloon damage (just around 1/3 of the total balloon hp at minimum); limiting their use dramatically. I'd like to have them be viable options in more situations, and there's not a lot of reasons to avoid giving it a buff (as in a reduction of the negative side effects as opposed to increasing the power).

[RearAdmiralZill]

Im not quite sure why you guys keep comparing x to y tools in posts that equate to books.

Anyway, lets imagine a situation where the damage to balloon is reduced, and the lag time is gone. Ships are quite a bit more maneuverable now. Combat becomes a lot more dynamic.

No, you just make those tools more spammy, and risk breaking the balanced stats that each ship has in relation to vertical movement. If you want to ask why kero/moonshine get to be left on, my theory would be that maps are much more horizontally large than vertically.

Take a look at some competitive play. Most of the time is spent fairly level, trying to keep their enemy dead ahead. They may duck down behind cover or try to rise into/above clouds, but combat occurs head to head. Even when using guns with great downward arcs, they will have their ship follow the sinking enemy and try to keep level.

Because to counter the use of vertical tools, its best to keep level with your enemy until its no longer advantageous to you, which you then look for altitude advantages.

I'd like to have them be viable options in more situations, and there's not a lot of reasons to avoid giving it a buff (as in a reduction of the negative side effects as opposed to increasing the power).

They each do one thing respectively, so all you change is how often they are used, which just makes them spammy.

[Thomas]

It depends on how you tweak it. If it did itsy bitsy damage like the kero or claw, it could be spammed. If you tone it down, or at the very least make not last as long, it can be used more effectively without being spammed. It's a balancing act, and these tools -do- need some love.

I can't see how it would break the balance between ships at all. All we're looking for is less damage/more control. Not for an increase in power. Even now it's not as powerful as some people think, especially at the higher levels of play. They would function exactly as they do now in terms of drag and acceleration changes. Making them less devastating to use will not break the game.

The goal is make them more usable, which will likely increase their frequency in use. Other helm tools that are spammable: kerosene, phoenix claw, tar barrel, drogue chute, and impact bumpers. Which is everything -but- moonshine, hydrogen, and chute vent. Although moonshine made it onto your spammable list. I can see it being spammed under the right conditions, but not as frequently as the rest.


Don't be afraid of the Y axis, embrace it!

[RearAdmiralZill]

All you're proposing there is less damage and less activation, but any ship short of a squid (that's being generous) doesn't even move if you leave it for < 3 seconds. The control is honestly in the 3 second activation.

The goal is make them more usable, which will likely increase their frequency in use.

Current ship movement/mass wont just let you break physics. It takes time for the tool's effect to really do much of anything short of damaging your balloon for movement that you could of done not using the tool. If you're imagining airships dancing around at various altitudes, then that is our disagreement. These tools are for the extreme cases that you need a burst of up/down for the sake of positioning, not something to be used constantly.

[Thomas]

The tools exist for whatever purpose the pilots can use them for, just look at kerosene and moonshine.

As for them not activating if you try to use the tool for less than a second, I would recommend more testing with the tool. You can definitely see results instantly. If you are trying to avoid a sticky situation, then yes, you probably need at least 3 seconds or so to get out of their arc. Probably more. If I'm burning kerosene and I might clip some terrain if I don't slow down, it's nice to use hydrogen to pop up over it a smidgeon. But then you're forced to continue rising and have a difficult time going back down.

And of course the sheer damage it does to the balloon (almost 1/3 of the health) with even the most brief activation. Maybe you want to try bobbing up and down as you close the distance to a sniper. Maybe you want to get out of your ally's way when he's trying to shoot the hwacha. There's a lot of situations where a light touch is desired, but not obtainable. It's not always wanted to have it last as long as it does. Having it be more controllable allows for long bursts of use and short taps.