Author Topic: redria’s Journal - A High Level Guide to Flying Pyramidions  (Read 20787 times)

Offline The Djinn

  • Community Ambassador
  • Salutes: 19
    • [CA]
    • 25 
    • 41
    • 36 
    • View Profile
Re: redria’s Journal - A High Level Guide to Flying Pyramidions
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2014, 11:10:42 am »
This guide explains so much of why your Pyra was so irritating in that epic battle 'twixt us the other day. It's an absolutely great resource.

That said, some thoughts (coming from another pilot who loves the Pyra).

1 -- I'd recommend adding a note to the Build section suggesting that Gat/Mortar builds keep the mortar on the left side, and the gat on the right. You have it mentioned, but fail to point out the benefits of either set-up. I feel this one is superior, because while both gun have a 400m maximum range these days (and thus you might love Lesmok on both) the fact of the matter is that it's far more important to have the Gat firing first to shred the armor, while the ship itself can substitute for a finisher if the mortar isn't 100% ready. Hence I typically put my top right Gunner on the Gatling with Greased and Lesmok: he gets a clip off with Lesmok as we close in (allowing him to hit well outside the 400m typical range of the Gatling), then switches to Greased. The top left Engineer carries Greased for the mortar kill, which is good because he actually has more time to repair the balloon and/or run belowdecks any time the enemy has their armor up.

2 -- Definitely include Moonshine as a possibility under the Tools section. While it has less utility than Kerosene (as it burns a little to hot to just keep on all the time), it's really good for ramming and/or sudden shifts in acceleration/deceleration. This can allow for maneuvers your enemies don't anticipate (shooting past a ship that's evaded your ram, just to hit Moonshine in reverse and then Phoenix Claw for an insanely fast turn), as well as really giving you the advantage in ramming battles, especially against other Pyramidions that don't have Moonshine. The 1000% reduction in angular drag effectively means that no matter where you hit the enemy ship they go spinning and you remain stationary.

I'd also include a mention of Impact Bumpers. Although I don't often take them, Impact Bumpers + Moonshine can be a great tool set to bring when up against other ramming Pyramidions. It gives you a huge advantage, and even lets you head-on them with relative impunity. They'll spin like crazy, you'll keep your gun arcs, and you'd take reduced damage.

In short, give us a small write-up of the other useful options (including Chute Vent, as the Pyra's high forward guns mean that Chute Vent can sometimes buy you enough time to disable a popping ship), as Phoenix Claw is the only tool I'd say is basically mandatory on the Pyramidion. Your suggestions are great (and typically what I bring myself), but people should be aware of the other useful options.

3 -- In the Builds section, you've neglected the more support-style Double Merc and Double Artemis, as well as the Merc/Artemis build. You've also forgotten Hades/Flak, which is at least worth a passing mention.

I'd also recommend taking more time to talk about the side guns. Flare rear + Flamer mid (with the Engineer on Lesmok, which you should mention) gives you some great brawling power, plus the ability to gain vision. An Artemis or Banshee in the 3 spot can actually give the Pyra a trifecta if you fly close at the right angle: that alone is really worth mentioning. Sniping and/or disabling builds can benefit from a Gatling + Mortar combination and turning the side for the kill (especially good when paired with the Flamethrower + Carronade disable, for example). Double Artemis, Double Merc, and Artemis/Merc can offer some nice long-range harass against other snipers, possibly disabling key guns and letting you turn into them and close the distance. In short, you should *really* delve into those side guns more, as far to many Pyra pilots tend to forget they even have them. A high-level guide should definitely assume that the pilot knows the guns exist and wants to get the most out of every part of his/her ship.

4 -- I'd change Fly Dumb to Fly Dumb, Fly Smart, and include a bit about the tactical use of the Pyra. I fully agree that testing a ship to its limits is a good way to learn it, but you should also talk about how to fly the Pyra effectively. Mention burning Kero/Moonshine to negate forward momentum for a failed ram, mention how the ship is amazing at interception and ramming enemies off your allies, mention that if you can't ram head-on you want to aim so you spin towards your left side guns...you recommend flying like a madman, which works. But I'd love to see some bits about how to be a smart madman, if that makes sense.  :D

5 -- Your section on Ramming is excellent. I notice, however, that you don't have a "General Ramming" section, which I feel you should have. You don't mention how bouncing your enemy into a building can double the ramming damage (you mention walls, but not why this works so well), nor how ramming a ship fleeing at high speed can actually knock them forward and how, if this throws off your gun arcs, you can actually lose kills as a result of this lost time. The specific advice is great...but definitely don't forget to offer general ramming tips as well.

Offline redria

  • Member
  • Salutes: 136
    • [OVW]
    • 16 
    • 31
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: redria’s Journal - A High Level Guide to Flying Pyramidions
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2014, 12:20:47 pm »
Djinn... and everyone else posting comments here.

I appreciate it. The feedback is wonderful, and will help make a much more complete guide for someone wanting to learn those few tricks that help a pilot make the next step.

That said... Everyone's feedback has made me realize how self-limiting I am on myself. I have a very particular playing style, and everything on my ships match that play style exceptionally well. I don't use side guns... like, at all. I feel much more in control if I keep everything on my front guns. I won't change piloting tools because I am so used to the way my current ones work that trying to change leaves me feeling helpless in matches. I tend away from sniper builds because I want to be in the thick of things. Sure I can get a kill sitting at a decent range with hades/artemis, but It just feels like waiting. I'd rather get in and impose myself rather than wait for a ship to die.

With this in mind, much of the feedback that people are offering I can add to the guide, but I can't speak on it from experience. I just don't play any other way than how I've already posted. My point being, would anyone like to collaborate with me to compile a complete top level guide to every aspect of flying a Pyramidion? The bones are there, and I feel like the pyramidion mostly follows my play style, but there is a lot more to it that I just can't expand on. With a couple people helping me, we could really flesh this out into a complete compendium on the pyramidion. Then we just need to pester other people to start grouping together to write up other ships.

Message me here or pester me at some point when I'm on GoIO if you are interested. We can set up a google doc and start fleshing out the areas I missed out on.

Thank you everyone.  :) I was really excited when I posted this guide, but I think we can do better collectively.

Offline The Djinn

  • Community Ambassador
  • Salutes: 19
    • [CA]
    • 25 
    • 41
    • 36 
    • View Profile
Re: redria’s Journal - A High Level Guide to Flying Pyramidions
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2014, 12:30:55 pm »
With this in mind, much of the feedback that people are offering I can add to the guide, but I can't speak on it from experience. I just don't play any other way than how I've already posted. My point being, would anyone like to collaborate with me to compile a complete top level guide to every aspect of flying a Pyramidion? The bones are there, and I feel like the pyramidion mostly follows my play style, but there is a lot more to it that I just can't expand on. With a couple people helping me, we could really flesh this out into a complete compendium on the pyramidion. Then we just need to pester other people to start grouping together to write up other ships.

Message me here or pester me at some point when I'm on GoIO if you are interested. We can set up a google doc and start fleshing out the areas I missed out on.

Absolutely. I'll be away in NYC for the next few days, but I would DEFINITELY be up for something like this. You have an amazing start here, but I think this could be better organized and fleshed out to provide a comprehensive guide for novices and veterans alike...something that I'd eventually love to have for every ship, so we can use it as a tool to help new players (and experienced players) get up to speed and/or hone their skills to an art.

I'll drop you a message with my e-mail so we can get a Google Doc going.

Offline HamsterIV

  • Member
  • Salutes: 328
    • 10 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
    • Monkey Dev
Re: redria’s Journal - A High Level Guide to Flying Pyramidions
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2014, 12:49:57 pm »
Redria there is nothing wrong with your guide. It is how you play and it contains perfectly valid advice. I have been chipping in my own play style because I like to talk about it, and your guide's thread seemed like as valid a place as any. Having written several guides, I know the mods are more than happy to edit your first posts as you refine your guides. PM any mod who is active with the changes you want to add. N-Sunderland helped me, but I don't see him on too much.

Offline redria

  • Member
  • Salutes: 136
    • [OVW]
    • 16 
    • 31
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: redria’s Journal - A High Level Guide to Flying Pyramidions
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2014, 12:59:53 pm »
Hamster - I know.  :) Don't worry. I'm proud of what I made. But now I want more. Haha. I don't like having people suggest things and not being able to address it other than to say "ew. I'd never play that way". Plus the example of collaboration might lead someone else to spearhead a group to make guides for another ship. Part of why I only fly Pyra is it's the only ship I really know how to fly, and there's nothing telling the finer details of how to use other ships well. I don't have the patience to learn them on my own when I do pyramidion so well.

I am very proud of what I have here, but I want to see how far we can push forwards if we work together in the design phase of a guide, not just the revision phase.

Regardless, I like the idea of having a single complete guide for each ship, not bits and pieces for each ship spread across several guides, each with their own addendum referencing each other. Then each complete guide can have a note from each contributor on what parts they employ to give an idea to readers what facets of the guide mesh well with each other, and what parts are at odds. For example, a spire guide might describe how to fly long range and short range, along with how to build short range and long range. The contributor notes would include one author mentioning using short range + short range, while another would discuss long range + long range.
Basically, here is a guide telling you everything you need to know about this ship. At the end, here are the viewpoints of each author on what facets of the ship work best when used together.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2014, 01:06:11 pm by redria »

Offline Cheesy Crackers

  • Member
  • Salutes: 82
    • [Gent]
    • 18
    • 25 
    • View Profile
    • My Blog
Re: redria’s Journal - A High Level Guide to Flying Pyramidions
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2014, 09:44:41 pm »
Awesome guide! I really want to try out Urzs' Flamethrower now :3
Right now I'm mainly running a Metamidion with Artemis/flamer on the side. I usually only ram ships to mess up their weapon arcs and tilt my ship (When they don't have arcs) to fire the gat, mortar and flamethrower at the same time. But now I'm thinking to practice my ram uppercuts because I like trying out different builds and experimenting a little (Usually ending in death xD)
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 09:46:52 pm by Cheesy Crackers »

Offline redria

  • Member
  • Salutes: 136
    • [OVW]
    • 16 
    • 31
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: redria’s Journal - A High Level Guide to Flying Pyramidions
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2014, 10:12:34 pm »
I don't think I've ever even tried to get gat-mortar-flamethrower. That actually sounds pretty fun. Probably best against a galleon when you don't think you can get the kill in a single mortar clip.

Thanks. :) the flamethrower- carronade setup is basically like running a blenderfish or classic disabling squid, but with the added bonus of not being squishy or dependent on a single gun. You get to use yourself as the killing weapon. Lots of fun for a pilot.

Offline Wundsalz

  • Member
  • Salutes: 72
    • [Rydr]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: redria’s Journal - A High Level Guide to Flying Pyramidions
« Reply #37 on: January 20, 2014, 08:00:20 am »
I definitely agree with Djinn that Moonshine and Bumpers should be added to the list of Helm tools. Chute Vent and Drogue Chute might be viable situational picks as well.
Moonshine is definitely the most interesting one and should be covered in more detail as it allows fancy, new maneuvers that aren't possible with kerosene. The fact that you can always stop the ships rotation almost instantly in any situations comes in handy very often. E.g. one can turn more rapidly towards foes - just keep the claw running and tap shine for a brief moment to stabilize the ship when it's in position. Without shine the turn takes longer as you need more time to decelerate your angular velocity. Shine is also very handy when it comes to crashes as bounces - again due to the stabilizing effect. E.g. it's way easier to ram Junkers if you use shine at the moment of impact.
"The moment you ram a junker, 9 times out of 10 they will slide away to one side and you will be left pointed at empty air with a junker’s broadside on your broadside." this is barely ever the case if you use moonshine and hit the junker more or less in the center. As the Junker is usually relatively stationary compared to a charging pyramideon the impulse will push the Junker right into the direction where you want it - in front of your guns, often letting the ship spinning around at a ridiculous pace, while your shine-stabilized ship stays pointed to the target.
Last but not least shine allows situational finishing blows which are harder to pull of with kerosene due to the lower acceleration. E.g. if the enemy ship steers into an unfortunate place which allows you to slam them into structure during a brawl encounter.

What I think is missing here:
repair routines
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 08:02:19 am by Wundsalz »

Offline Skrimskraw

  • Member
  • Salutes: 159
    • [GwTh]
    • 21 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: redria’s Journal - A High Level Guide to Flying Pyramidions
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2014, 08:18:51 pm »
a few things i like to do on my pyramidion.

I run 3 engineers.

top left engineer uses buff hammer, spanner and mallet. He will be fireing the explisive damage.
He buffs balloon, hull and engines outside of combat. His own gun in combat. During combat he can be called down to repair engines.

top right engineer is the dedicated gungineer, he brings wrench, fire extinguisher and buff hammer. He buffs his own gun. (a buffed gatling with greased will take down a pyramidion hull in 1 clip)
he buffs balloon, engines outside combat, his own gun during combat.
Rarely there is time in combat to extinguish you own balloon, this makes it a weakness of this build, as the gungineer has to extinguish the balloon, during combat or after. all depending on captains orders.

hull engineer brings spanner mallet and chem spray. he chemsprays all components but most importantly balloon and engines. He is glued to the hull.
What i personally like to do here during combat when our hull breaks, is go in reverse, make sure my guns keep target and help the hull engie rebuild with my spanner, then back to the helm. This usually makes me win 1v1 situations with minimal losses.

the pilot brings moonshine, drogue chute and claw.
claw to turn
moonshine to ram and keep your ship from getting knocked off target. (moonshine negates impact "rustling" thing where your ship turns off target).
moonshine also make it easy to go from 0 speed to ramming kill speed.
drogue chute is used because I like to go just slightly above my enemy, so when i eventually lose my balloon, drogue chute makes it possible for my gunners to keep gunning, as the pyras greatest defense is its offense.

the tactic works great on metamidions and hades pyramidions.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2014, 08:21:57 pm by Skrimskraw »

Offline Wundsalz

  • Member
  • Salutes: 72
    • [Rydr]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: redria’s Journal - A High Level Guide to Flying Pyramidions
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2014, 06:07:23 am »
I usually run my pyras with a different crew loadout:
top left: wrench, chem, buff or spanner, mallet, chem if the enemies are in balloon popping mood
top right: spanner, mallet, buff - if shit hits the fans/balloon he can help out with repairs efficiently
main: spanner, mallet, extinguisher/chem
as for the spraying priorities: I usually neglect the engines as they're rarely targeted by flamers and flame charges are rather inefficient on components - from my experience they can be kept up sufficiently by simple mallet/spanner hits during combat situations.

here's some random input for the guide (note that I've had a metamideon in mind while writing this):

general notes regarding engineering on a pyra:
- when whacking the hull with a mallet, utilize the cooldown time to take care of the engines.
- when under attack use the spanner on the hull to REPAIR until the mallet can be fully utilized.
- repair/rebuild side engines before the main engine. A pyra that can't turn is a dead pyra
- repair before rebuild! - if a side engine gets blown out and the other one is damaged, hit the damaged one before you repair the broken one. half the steering power is sufficient to keep the guns in arc in most cases - 1/8-1/4 is not.
- don't get sucked into engine repairs. If an engine gets shot out in a combat situation, your hull most likely takes damage as well and that's the most important component on your ship after all. repair the engines during the mallet cool-down time and head back to the hull for the next hit - even if it means that you leave a half repaired engine behind you!
- if one of the top deck engineers heads down it should be the mortar gunineer.
- there's barely any situation where one of the top deck engineers should head down to the lower deck. Rule of thumb for front deck engineers on a metamideon: if and only if the hull is (about to go) down AND both steering engines are down AND you can't point your gun at an enemy it's time for the mortar gunineer to head down to the lower deck.
- the captain can (and should) help out with hull rebuilds. Common exceptions are: You've almost dodged your enemy but need to stay on the steering wheel a little longer to get out of your enemies gun arcs. Or you've just lost your gun arcs and hull during a ram. In that case you should either try to dodge or to quickly give your ship a turning impulse towards the enemy before helping out with the repairs.
- when it comes to repairs a pyra captain doesn't have to take care of anything but hull rebuilds - so bring a spanner as a captain.
- try to stand next to the hull slightly before it goes down (this applies to both - main engie and captain)
- as a captain repair coordinated with your main engineer - make sure the hull gets hit by a mallet and not by a mallet once the repair is finished! Especially on public matches I try to let the engineer perform the last spanner hit so he does not get confused by own spanner hits as a captain.
- the player on the top left should utilize idle times (like reloads or in case of a metamideon waiting for enemy hull to be striped by the gat) to repair/chemspray/buff the ballon/weapon.

std. repair routes:
A) mallet claps on hull -> side engine -> main engine (which can be hit from below) -> side engines -> the remaining cooldown time for the next mallet whack on the hull can be used to shoot the side guns or to simply watch out for enemies.
B) for excessive moon shining (eg. for fast travel on cps): spanner left engine -> spanner main engine -> spanner right engine -> spanner main engine, repeat. This keeps the main engine in excellent shape while the side engines will burn down slowly. Once the side engines have been damaged sufficiently to fully utilize a mallet hit, alter the route to mallet left engine -> spanner main engine -> mallet right engine -> spanner main engine.

Crew Routines for certain maneuvers:
- Direct 1v1 approach in outgunning situation (very common on crazy king matches and also unavoidable in certain dm situations):
In some cases gat/mortar vs gat/mortar encounters are very close and you can't really tell who has got the upper hand in the fight. In these cases you might not want to dodge out of the situation but try to simply outgun your enemy. steer the ship towards the enemy and decelerate it to ensure that it'll float in front of your enemy with your guns pointed at it. Let your gunners and main engie do their business and once your hull is about to go down leave the steering wheel and head to the hull so you're ready to instantly spanner it with your engineer while your gunners keep shooting. If your hull hasn't been stripped before you will most likely survive a hull strip if only one mortar is pointed at you.
- Escape:
Often you find yourself in unfortunate situations where there's nothing to gain for you but certain death. Early team mate deaths in 2vs2 encounters, traps, unfortunate approaches, your powder monkey on the gat jumps off the ship because an object on the ground is more interesting than the enemy dead ahead, etc. That's when you want to get the fuck out of there ASAP. A trait of good pilots is to know when to disengage and re-position yourself rather than to maximize the gain for an encounter the enemy has already won.
While you're burning the shit out of your engines with shine/claw/kerosene, let one of your engineers jump on the lower deck. One of the engineers on the main deck can do repair route B elaborated above while the other engie takes care of the hull and fireing the side weapons. the 3rd engie stays on the upper deck to take care of the balloon and to distract the enemy with gat fire.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2014, 06:37:50 am by Wundsalz »

Offline Mizhir Starsurge

  • Member
  • Salutes: 21
    • [Cake]
    • 6
    • View Profile
Re: redria’s Journal - A High Level Guide to Flying Pyramidions
« Reply #40 on: January 29, 2014, 06:40:02 am »
Just a question. What ammo should the gunner bring for Urz's flamer?

Also confirming that goomba stomping stuff is highly addictive.

Offline redria

  • Member
  • Salutes: 136
    • [OVW]
    • 16 
    • 31
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: redria’s Journal - A High Level Guide to Flying Pyramidions
« Reply #41 on: January 29, 2014, 07:01:37 am »
Just a question. What ammo should the gunner bring for Urz's flamer?

Also confirming that goomba stomping stuff is highly addictive.
Good question. I'm trying out being a gunner right now. Previously I just said lesmok on the flamers and heavy in the carronade, but I think you lose a lot of  damage from the flamer that way. I'm starting to like sticking burst in a flame thrower, just due to how much ammo you get (you can just keep shooting forever!) but I don't know if it's actually a good decision.
Best answer: let your crew decide. Talk to high level gunners and see what they bring.

Offline The Djinn

  • Community Ambassador
  • Salutes: 19
    • [CA]
    • 25 
    • 41
    • 36 
    • View Profile
Re: redria’s Journal - A High Level Guide to Flying Pyramidions
« Reply #42 on: January 29, 2014, 02:18:48 pm »
Good question. I'm trying out being a gunner right now. Previously I just said lesmok on the flamers and heavy in the carronade, but I think you lose a lot of  damage from the flamer that way. I'm starting to like sticking burst in a flame thrower, just due to how much ammo you get (you can just keep shooting forever!) but I don't know if it's actually a good decision.
Best answer: let your crew decide. Talk to high level gunners and see what they bring.

I've been running the Urz build on Paritan for a while now (after that incredible match we had alerted me to it), and I've been using a Flamer gunner with Lesmok/Burst/Greased. Lesmok gives me some closing range, Burst allows for constant firing and a ton of disabling, and Greased gives you the highest DPS overall. Having all three gives you some nice variety in how you approach the fight.

Then your Deck Engie takes Lesmok for an easier forward Trifecta with the Carronade/Flamer/Flamer.


Offline Thomas

  • Member
  • Salutes: 80
    • [SPQR]
    • 20 
    • 44
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: redria’s Journal - A High Level Guide to Flying Pyramidions
« Reply #43 on: January 29, 2014, 03:17:09 pm »
Heatsink might actually be a good choice for a flamer. You lose some range and damage, but you make it up in the largest clip size; along with a faster turning speed. Might be a bit better if starting fires and continuous damage is your goal. Heavy clip is also an interesting choice if you want to take out specific components like guns, as you can focus the stream a lot more directly at them; although you do lose damage overall.

Offline Omniraptor

  • Member
  • Salutes: 51
    • [Duck]
    • 27 
    • 45
    • 38 
    • View Profile
Re: redria’s Journal - A High Level Guide to Flying Pyramidions
« Reply #44 on: January 29, 2014, 06:12:31 pm »
If you run a standard gat/mortar pyra and don't want to think about the side guns, just put a flare in slot 3. When the engineer has a spare moment, they can just put 15 stacks of fire onto the enemy ship. The flare gun's arcs mean you don't need to adjust at all, just fly normally and they main engi will be able to shoot. Because the gun fires so quickly, it works well with the main engi's time-consuming job.