Author Topic: Light ship: Krill  (Read 2444 times)

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Light ship: Krill
« on: September 07, 2016, 11:58:25 pm »


Video from before engine texturing. https://youtu.be/cWErSEiHmiM

 copypasta from the email I sent Muse:

So.... just messing around with the ship models and decided to revisit the thought I sent some time ago about a completely new introduction to the game, both mechanically and socially. The result was tearing apart a Squid and a Pyramidian, combining the smaller bits, retexturing, and making a new ship in the ultralight class.

Since it is sorta like a smaller Squid, I named it the 'Krill'.

If anyone recalls the email, it was all about introducing new players to the game through a tiered ship system. Ultralights would be designed for two human crew and one default AI. This allows a group of four friends to crew two ships without having to deal with 'pickups'. It only takes 8 people to form a full lobby (4 if they are against AI). No gunner class (gunner class is unlockable further up). The only repair tool would be the pipe wrench, with far fewer ammo types. No fire tools needed, since either there would be no fire damage guns for tier 1, or the default AI would take care of fire damage. This makes lobby time minimal, with no confusing conversations on why you should bring what.

To emphasize the two-man-crew mindset, only one gun max would face in a direction, with no weird angles or possible crossovers. There would also be no 'bad guns' to take. This leaves one person to pilot, and one person to shoot and repair.
 
A new thought I had to add to this is removing the armor, and leaving only permahull. This means no timed rebuilds for armor (new players miss this all the time anyways). Tier 1 guns would just chip away at the hull until the ship explodes, doing mainly low level shatter and flechette damage. This leaves the balloon, 2 engines (all UL ships would only have 2), and 1 or 2 guns to fix.

Offline Naoura

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Re: Light ship: Krill
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2016, 12:44:57 pm »
I am so very glad that someone else had the same idea.

I had the idea for Scouts or so, where the one four man crew is split down to two men crew on two seperate ships, where the "Captain" chooses the squadron, or basically the two ships that the ship would be divided into.

I figured it would be better for Alliance mode rather than skirmish, as it'd be a little difficult to pull off correctly and that they would be killed almost instantly by competant players.

I had the same thought on removing the armor rebuild, though I did think that the heavier scouts/ultralights could have some minimal plating. Just a small amount above what they generally have, but that's up to opinion.

I had three or four thought up, and I wouldn't mind seeing if you could render these too.

Harpy: two small weapon positioned facing forward on a kind of set of wings, like a smaller version of the Mobula. Balloon would be in two sets underneath these wings, like fuel pods on modern aircraft (http://media.defenceindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_F-18F_Over_Water_Fuel_Tanks_lg.jpg), while the captain would sit at the back. I'd say it'd fly almost like a fighter for the players, answering their prayers for it. Repair point for the balloon would be in between the weapons, making it a little difficult to switch between them.

Widow: Thin and narrow, somewhat similar to your Krill but with one weapon facing forwards, the captain sitting at the back with a weapon facing backwards afterwards. The engines would be up near the front, attached off of either side and angled downwards slightly. Balloon would be underneath the deck that the pilot woud stand on, with the repair point just in front of it, small ramps leading up on the sides for the pilot to walk up.

Barnacle: A heavy weapon platform with two decks. Bottom deck has the pilot's wheel, balloon point, and both engines, while the top deck JUST has a heavy weapon's slot. Balloon sits down below it, again, similar to a mobula, but in a single long spire.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Light ship: Krill
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2016, 04:28:43 pm »
These ships are designed to be entry level ships for new players in Skirmish. They could eventually have uses outside of that, such as single ship stealth missions in Alliance, but the main goal is to make ships that are super easy to man and learn the game with.

Since they are intended for two people only, there would only be one gun pointed in a direction, and no heavy, or even light guns allowed. Actually, you might have to rename existing 'light' guns 'medium' and 'medium' to heavy, and the new smaller guns to 'light'. Most people call the medium guns heavy anyways. There would have to be a set of guns specifically tailored for Teir 1 Skirmish that could only be used on these ships.

Guns would have more literal names as well. 'Hullcracker' grenade launcher. 'Loonbreaker' mounted blunderbuss. 'Gun Bane' anti-gun missile sling. etc. All guns will do relatively similar damage to the hull, with the exception of the 'Hullcracker' type guns. These would do a bit more. The end goal would be guns that are mostly the same as far as damage, but behave more like their bigger siblings. That is what I meant by You can't take a "bad gun." They are basically training wheels, and you can't gimp your team by taking the wrong one.

This may seem like a lot of hand holding, and it is.

The issue with ships is you can't think of them from the outside. You have to think of them from a level design standpoint. They are literally mini game levels. So, all good level design practices apply. These are 'first room' ships. Everything has to be obvious. You don't put in any easy fail elements (outside of rage games).

Your 'Harpy' thought might be possible as a two gun ship since they are so far apart. Or, if the guns are too far away from the pilot to be useful. Its a tough call from a level design standpoint, though.

I did have a thought for a mini Galleon type ship that would allow one select current light weapon on one side or the other. Great care would be needed in deciding which weapons to allow, though.

An alternative to 'no armor' would  'all armor'. In other words, you have a hull repair point with X armor, but only 1 HP perma hull. As soon as your armor goes, you die. This would allow people to learn good repair practices without the tedious tanking you get in higher level matches.

Offline Naoura

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Re: Light ship: Krill
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2016, 04:17:15 pm »
I rather disagree on having them as "Starter room" ships for lower level players.

I can agree with wanting less people on a ship, but I heavily disagree with having lower level players on them. A ship with 3 mid-level players can carry a low-level player through a match, whether or not they are trolling or simply being incompetent. 3 can carry a ship, but it's damned hard to do and remain combat effective.

Now, let's say you do that to a two-man ship. You are instantly negative combat effective, and are probably going to be shredded before you even know which component needs repairing, especially with low-to-no armor and hull health. Whether or not you could lock these ships to Novice matches or not, they'd still be absolutely destroyed when put up against any other kind of actual ship. Not to mention that, when put on a 4 player ship, they'd be so used to having to suicide into a fight with no armor that none of them would know when was the proper moment to repair armor, and low level pilots wouldn't know when to disengage to save armor and keep alive. They'd be so used to suiciding on the enemy and trying to simply shred the enemy before they themselves get torn apart. They'd likely focus more on keeping weapons active rather than balloon, in order simply to trade kills and try and win.

A two man ship would be high level, extremely high level, in fact. Even if you introduced some really, really simple to understand weapons with easy to understand arcs, firing rates, and arming times, a new player would still be confused about how the weapon is supposed to work at range, how elevation arcs and ship movement can throw off shots from a slow-moving projectile, etc. On top of that, keeping engines repaired, balloon in top condition, and trying to keep weaponry ready and equipped on top of that would be extroardinarily difficult for just two crewmen...

Unless you're a high-level player who knows practically everything about every weapon on every ship. On a solo-engie/gungineer type build for the crewman on the two-man ship, the high level player would be able to manage the ship well enough that the pilot would be able to avoid the guns long enough to be ready for another engagement, and the high-level pilot would have the skill and knowledge of the ships to avoid the most damaging of enemy weaponry and be able to engage on a ships weak-points.

I can agree with the idea of having a ship designed with new players in mind, but if you're going to do that, have more players, not less. A field full of chickens will still manage to peck their way through a fence, albeit slowly and not very effectively. Say you were to have the 8 player ship that I'd floated up a while ago. If you take the multiple hull points, defending much more strongly from incoming damage from a side, you'll end up having more of the engineers manning points that need repairs rather than manning guns. You'll still have the jerks who refuse to repair and go straight to the weaponry, but even then, you'll have enough hands at least trying to rebuild necessary components rather than shooting.

A dozen inexperienced hands can be roughly equivalent to a handful of highly experienced hands. It's like the Battle of Stamford, in effect: One battle hardened, dedicated, well trained and experienced soldier holding back a horde of inexperienced, untrained militia. Yes, eventually, one of them got lucky and killed the Son of Thor, and so the same would be found with matches where you have ships like this.

I agree with the concept, but the overall execution, I think.... rather backwards.

Offline KeijoPertti

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Re: Light ship: Krill
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2016, 04:45:53 pm »


even lighter version

Offline Naoura

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Re: Light ship: Krill
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2016, 04:48:03 pm »


even lighter version

Fly me closer, I want to hit them with my sword.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Light ship: Krill
« Reply #6 on: September 12, 2016, 06:36:50 pm »
Naoura, I don't think you quite understand the 'why?' aspect here.

GOIO is a very intimidating game to start playing, just as are most games that host a lot of people. It has little to do with skill. There is not just a learning curve here. There is also a steep social curve.

What do most people do when starting a new online game? Well, first, they fire up the single player or bot matches, or wander off on their own to kill slimes and rats. You don't have to interact with other players at all to start integrating with the game. The game teaches you the baby steps.

GOIO does not do this. It tosses you in at the deep end. 15 other players if you are lucky to get a 2v2. You are bound to 3 of them directly, and 4 more indirectly. 7 other people are counting on you not to screw up. Then your match starts, and it adds sharks... and piranha, and drops scorpions on your head while you just try to tread water.

That is no way to start a game. That is a hazing.

Making an 8 person ship would be even worse. It would be absolute chaos. "Why did we lose a match? Who screwed up? Did we screw up? What was I even supposed to be doing?" x 8. Not to mention ALL these people talking at once. That is a social nightmare, not an easing into playing with 3 other shipmates.

These ships are designed to be the 'you and a friend' bot matches or rat killing quest area. With fewer players, lobbies fill up faster, especially if it is in the upcoming Novice vs Bot mode. It would only take 4 people to start a 2v2 match, keeping more novices out of standard games. With the reduced toolsets, ammo types, and gun choices (with 'no-bad-gun' in effect), lobby times would be extremely fast. Get in a lobby, all ships are full, no loadouts or ship builds  to worry about, start game, shoot things. Try that with an 8 person ship.

In fact, the only reason to have an 8 player ship is if you have something for 8 players to do (while all talking, some of them about their dicks). Just using the shotgun approach to toss enough players at a task to maybe get a few of them to do it right is folly. That type of mindset and environment is designed to weed out all but the best people. What if ALL of them turn out to be competent, and the job really only needed 4 players? You end up with a sniper Goldfish. 50%+ of your crew doing nothing.  Very very bad design if that is your main goal. 

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Now, let's say you do that to a two-man ship. You are instantly negative combat effective, and are probably going to be shredded before you even know which component needs repairing

I don't understand your talk of getting shredded. I think you missed something as well, since these are not two crew ships. They are three crew ships. Two of them (at least in Novice) are players. The last one is a default AI (with a little different default behavior). This is carefully planned to keep your ship alive and running for a specific amount of time while under fire while you figure out what to do. The AI could not keep everything running on the ship due to its changed behavior. There would be no instagib weapon combos. These are Novice ships with Novice guns specifically designed to not shred ships. Everything is designed specifically for slow reaction times. The ships are smaller, easy to navigate, easy to control, and much slower than the big ships, but on much smaller maps to keep the same feeling of relative speed.

Personally, I don't want 2 person elite ships. That breaks the high level gameplay dynamic. I would only like this for single ship stealth missions in Alliance, with modified versions of these Novice ships, specialized tool sets, and new actual instagib guns that take extreme skill and communication to use.

By the way, new ship update, the Pinno! Named after the tiny, soft shelled crab 'Pinnotheridae'.




Blunt nose, slow moving ship. Originally designed as an air tug for the pleasure cruise version of the Mobula (before it was pressed into war efforts) to aid in docking and quiet, peaceful towing.

Two guns facing forward (pilot would have to leave helm to use one) on the same flat deck, one possible gun on the rear down a ladder. Crew quarters inside the ship for aesthetic purposes only, no components. Sometimes the important guests would use them as well to get off the party boat for some quiet for a while... or to sober up after too much party.

Rather than using turbofans like the Mobula to keep the ship upright, the Pinno uses large flywheels (those things in front of the engines, will get a video up sometime).

Picture of its namesake.

« Last Edit: September 12, 2016, 06:38:29 pm by Richard LeMoon »

Offline Naoura

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Re: Light ship: Krill
« Reply #7 on: September 12, 2016, 08:00:37 pm »
See, if it's in a bot match, I can understand it. Just against a small bot group, I could understand. Against players... that's where I feel really iffy about it. The way you have it explained locks it to Alliance-style matches. Teaching through combat with a group of allied ships that are of similar nature, people who are as clueless as you in combat.

But for teaching Skirmish... It'd be better off to work on board a ship with higher level players that can explain, teach, and in some cases, take over for the low level player. Getting into higher level Skirmish matches dumps you into the deep end as much as any game ever does. If you leave the new-player zone, you're going to be treading water hard. Except the water is made of H2O2. Filled with Xenomorphs. Starved Xenomorphs.

In part, that may be simply because of the Matchmaker. The fact that players can just avoid the Novice levels and jump straight into a match with two stacked ships and a captain who is still learning and a try-hard ally is just a problem with matchmaking, not with having the ability to daudle off into a sewer and start farming skeletons.

I could agree with your concept for Alliance mode. Instead of having hordes and hordes of ships bearing down on you constantly, just a few that you have to eliminate in small skifs or scouting craft, trying to teach the basic concepts of the game in a gamemode that could still be applicable to higher levels. A search and destroy mixed with Deathmatch, if you will, just against AI.

Now, moving on to the two-player-one-AI dynamic... why? Why bother having two players if you're going to just stick an AI on there? Why not just have half the basic ship with two players and double AI in a safe-zone game? You learn the basic Skirmish ships, you learn how to repair and work together on board, and there you go. It seems like a huge undertaking to build a whole new series of ships, a whole new mode, and a whole new crew dynamic when you could simply lock down the player amount allotted for ships and have the last two as AI. Way easier to implement in a safe-zone type of game. And if you keep the ultralights for later play, you're going to have high level players use them and it's going to upset the dynamics anyways. If it's there, they'll choose it, either to break up the monotany of ships or else for a challenge.

As for the 8 player ships, remember what I was saying with my Dreadnought idea. Tactically, they would have the manpowerto command a battlefield, and they would be strong enough to hold their own against a number of incoming ships. That also being said, you can have the high level players in the same ship as a number of low level players, and capable of teaching much more effectively since there are enough people to handle repairs and damage. Confusion I will cede you, as there will be multiple voices going off at the same time, and the chat going by rather quickly. I can't disagree with you on that, as more players would be relaying more information, but you would be able to combat that with basic communication skills after a few matches together. I will, however, disagree with the idea of Sniperfish. An 8 manned ship would be an easy target to acquire and hit while being a juicy target, especially when implemented in gameplay as a more important target to both defend and to attack with. Yes, you will have times where no one knows what they're doing, but they'll do that on any ship for the first few levels, easy layout and easily understood weapons or not. In the basic ships, you'll have the higher levels telling you where to go, telling you what needs to be done, and many times teaching by example. That might be done somewhat easier in ships where each crewman is not a keystone in keeping you airborne. It's the reason that Overwatch has 6 players on its teams, so that every player doesn't have to be at their A game for every match, but their role in the team is still felt.

For Alliance mode, the idea of having the 2 crew ships works wonders, but in the face of Skirmish... I'm not as convinced. Alliance itself would be a wonderful tool for teaching Skirmish period, especially with easier difficulties and modes where life counts weren't as harsh as they were in the Alpha. Alliance can teach Skirmish easily and effectively, just as the single-player of most games can teach the multiplayer, or at the very least the basics of gameplay to teach the multiplayer.

And lastly, the Pinno is awesome! I shall call him squishy, and he shall be mine, he shall be my squishy. I wills say it seems a liiiittle too on the nose for the Mob, just looking like a smaller Mobula, but that's not exactly a bad thing. Let me know if you want the basic idea for the Widow design, might work well for your same idea.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Light ship: Krill
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2016, 12:09:16 am »
But for teaching Skirmish... It'd be better off to work on board a ship with higher level players that can explain, teach, and in some cases, take over for the low level player.

This, right here, is why so many people quit. Both new and old. You should never have to learn game basics to mid level from someone else. Any game that has that as a requirement has failed horribly in its basic introduction. Especially an online game. A lot of those people are assholes, new and vets. New people running into them will quit, old people trying to teach them will quit. There is simple no good reason to expect your playerbase to be your tutorial. None. Vets should only be teaching people that already have a good handle on the game, or jump into novice matches to teach on purpose (I can and do do this).

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Now, moving on to the two-player-one-AI dynamic... why? Why bother having two players if you're going to just stick an AI on there? Why not just have half the basic ship with two players and double AI in a safe-zone game?

One word: Progression. Progression and a feeling of accomplishment is key in learning and investing in a new game. Start small, progress higher. GOIO skips this very important aspect, other than the pitiful level system that has nothing to do with the game. A player that progresses though small to large is far more invested that someone that was just given everything from the get go. These are basic gaming principals.

I can not stress the importance of a good, consistent tutorial. Players are not consistent. Even better, something that teaches without letting the player know they are in a tutorial. Look at Portal, which is considered to have one of the best tutorials of all time. 8 out of 19 levels are just teaching the game. A full half of the game content IS the tutorial. But is is presented in a way that hides this fact wonderfully.

Now, these small ships are only part of my grand suggestion that abandons the tutorial for an advanced adventure through a tiered set of earned ships, moving seamlessly between Skirmish and Alliance mechanics (the tutorial currently uses Alliance mechanics). Challenge modes are offered in between skirmish matches to earn more ships and guns (A NEW CHALLENGER APROACHES!). You don't just unlock a Pyramidian by getting to a certain level. You have to take your little Krill or Pinno with a few other ships and capture a live (AI) one. In terms you might be more familiar with, imagine taking out a Boss ship in Alliance in a certain game mode, and then being able to fly the damn thing in special new modes. Imagine the thrilling feeling of accomplishment. That thing is yours because you damn well earned it!

THAT, my friend, is how you introduce someone to a game that relies so much on coms, skill, and ship familiarity. Not some mosh pit battle. You don't progress to standard Skirmish until you PROVE you can fly that ship under your feet.

Take that mechanic all the way into standard Skirmish. Don't just give everyone all the ships at once. Make people earn each and every one. Every new ship or gun earned is a new thrill (#fixtheharpoon).

The ultralights....should really be called 'light' ships and the current 'medium' (the Galleon is called a medium warship in the game files).... anyways, these ships could not be taken against larger tier ships, so there would be no worries there. There could be custom matches and challenges and Alliance content for them, but a big no on bringing them to a standard match. Besides, they would only be half as fast as the standard ships, with guns that could not hurt them. You could just run them all over with a Squid, and never fire a shot (might be a fun game mode, actually).


I really don't see how these, or any two crew ships would be better than 4 crew ships in Alliance for just about any mode of the game. They are small and have few guns. I just don't see them having a place other than cases where small, weak ships would serve a purpose, like stealth modes. Bigger two person ships? The only reason would be the ability to start matches with fewer people and no AI.


As for the 8 crew thing.... if that was the intro to the game, the first thing I saw, I would never have gotten past the first match. My first response would have been, "This game is shit." and likely bought DayZ with my other friends.

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I will, however, disagree with the idea of Sniperfish. An 8 manned ship would be an easy target to acquire and hit while being a juicy target, especially when implemented in gameplay as a more important target to both defend and to attack with.

I think you missed my point. If the crew is competent on a ship designed for half their number, it will be either boring as hell with nothing to do, or frustrating as hell as the few idiots on the ship chem spam the hull when you actually do need to fix it.

Finally, the Pinno is supposed to look like a small Mobula, since it was originally manufactured side by side with them to form matching escorts for the uppity ups. The model is also made out of Mobula and Pyramidian parts.

Offline Naoura

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Re: Light ship: Krill
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2016, 09:58:15 am »
This is why Alliance is a good thing. It's basically the entire "safe zone" you were suggesting. No need for vets to tell you what to do. No need to learn from other players. No need for any of it except to learn. After losing raid after raid after raid, they'd either quit, because they are stupid, or try a different class and figure out what needs be done with it. You'll still have ships that go with three gunners and a captain, but those ships will be utterly destroyed in a few minutes, losing the raid. That's where the matchmaking simply comes in, seperating players by cumulative level so that they aren't dragged into matches that are over their head.

Doing progression like that, I'm not sure it would keep players interested. Perhaps unlocking a new level of difficulty, and actually making the difficulty level for each ship mean something by keeping it locked to level, but then simply release more ships for low- mid- and high tier play and lock the tier of ships to your cumulative level. It would mean you wouldn't have to make an entirely new instance for low level players and it would show who the higher level players in an instant, because they would be in the most difficult and dangerous of ships, and as such would be instantly recognizable. You would obviously have players who take the low level ships just because they are easy and are almost guaranteed for wins and kills, but it wouldn't show them as any different from new players, which would be part of the prestige of using the higher tier, more difficult ships. Instead of simply being able to uncheck the "Novice" tab, keep it locked on your cumulative level and modify the matchmaker to look at cumulative level rather than just going to any-old match. On top of that, add a warning if you are about to be in a game with players past a certain level with you. "Your current cumulative level is 15, are you sure you want to continue with this match?" "Yes, because I'm awesome", now you only have your own damned self to blame for jumping into a match with nothing but 45's. If you are experienced with matches at that level, okay, fine, do your thing, but if you're not, you've been warned, dumbass, and if you get yelled at, it's your fault.

That's just on how to keep it clean on Skirmish, without having to load in a whole new batch of ships and weapons. Keeping it simple is better than messily complicating things with a half dozen new, small ships that would be abandoned past a certain point and be completely pointless to keep in the game. I know you've assisted with design, and what takes the least amount of resources? Reusing what is already there and simply modifying who can use it when, or else build from the ground up a whole segment of the game that would basically be it's own add-on?

I will concede the 8-man ship. for low level players, I suppose you are correct and that it would be a bit much, and I will admit defeat on that. For low levels. As for having nothing to do, that I will disagree on, as a ship of that size will be a target on the battlefield and would have plenty of parts that would need repairing at every other moment, idiots chem-locking you off the hull or not.

And don't get me wrong, I like Mobula Junior. Just thought a little more divergence would be nice, maybe having the weaponry on a scaffold top-deck in a nearly identical catwalk on the Pyra, except wrapping around the entirety of the ship. It would work if the Pinno also pulled shunting duty, moving some small cargo around an aeroport city and acting like the pickup of the skies. It'd teach the mechanic of jumping off the catwalks to go repair bottom-deck components on top of that, so it would indirectly teach the Pyramidion. I would somewhat disagree with having the crew quarters be empty, and rather have the balloon repair point inside it, teaching both the Pyra and the Mobula in an indirect way. It'd make the ship more difficult, but there comes the fun, challenging aspect to the ship.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Light ship: Krill
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2016, 05:54:22 pm »
I think I am going to remove the outer rigging that I took off the Mobula, and try replacing them with something more distinctive. The profiles do look too similar. Maybe something more round.

These ships could be modified some for tier 2, adding in the changes you suggested, making them more powerful while increasing the difficulty.