Author Topic: Regarding the Regarding the structure of the next Competitive Season  (Read 6684 times)

Offline Velvet

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Re: Regarding the Regarding the structure of the next Competitive Season
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2013, 06:43:15 pm »
I think sammy's idea for percentage penalty on point income of large clans is pretty nice/simple/easy to implement, and I don't really see any flaws. We'd have to work on the precise math, but a system of diminishing point returns for additional teams in a clan sounds appealing.


edit: that came out really awkward, but the idea is to subtract a fraction of points from bigger clans.
Problem there is it doesn't totally eliminate all issues. What about large clans that don't field a number of teams in proportion to their size, but still are able to scrimmage more regularly than others? I think since there's not a way of properly and fairly quantifying clan size and how that manifests itself as an advantage, it's not really something that should be penalised.
I also don't agree that clan size is the only issue with the current design - what about clans who are restricted by timezones or limitations on free time from regular scrimmaging, do they deserve to be sidelined regardless of their actual ability?

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: Regarding the Regarding the structure of the next Competitive Season
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2013, 06:52:36 pm »
I haven't read through everything so can someone answer me this: why can't any team register clan or not? If a clan has two teams there are treated as completely separate entities. Really what is the fear in this? Why is there a rule even prohibiting it? It seems like the last draft was making rules for the sake of making rules. The Gents are training a second team as we speak and we treat their training as if they will be our opponents.

Offline DMaximus

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Re: Regarding the Regarding the structure of the next Competitive Season
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2013, 09:54:11 pm »
I haven't read through everything so can someone answer me this: why can't any team register clan or not? If a clan has two teams there are treated as completely separate entities. Really what is the fear in this? Why is there a rule even prohibiting it? It seems like the last draft was making rules for the sake of making rules. The Gents are training a second team as we speak and we treat their training as if they will be our opponents.

I've always found that bit to be silly. If the Ducks want to register as a clan, let them. If the Gents want to register as two separate teams, they should be allowed to. You just have to have some kind of substitution rule in place that makes sure they're not the same team while not being stupidly restrictive.

Offline Skrimskraw

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Re: Regarding the Regarding the structure of the next Competitive Season
« Reply #33 on: December 03, 2013, 11:18:37 am »
Do we need to find out who the greatest clan in goio are? or do we want to find out who has the greatest team?

I'm just asking, cuz I don't care if its the ducks, gents, mm, dutchmen or whatever. What I'd love to see are teams playing with eachother competitively and if they meet a clanmate in battle. thats too bad but somebody has to lose.
Do we want a contest about who has the better clan?
If thats the case wouldn't you want to settle for a vanity scoring system for clans that is seperate from the team leaderboard?

I'm looking at these rules and the further down I come the more my head just starts hurting over all these rules and exceptions to 2vs2 battles.

Offline Velvet

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Re: Regarding the Regarding the structure of the next Competitive Season
« Reply #34 on: December 03, 2013, 12:41:37 pm »
Do we need to find out who the greatest clan in goio are? or do we want to find out who has the greatest team?

I'm just asking, cuz I don't care if its the ducks, gents, mm, dutchmen or whatever. What I'd love to see are teams playing with eachother competitively and if they meet a clanmate in battle. thats too bad but somebody has to lose.
Do we want a contest about who has the better clan?
If thats the case wouldn't you want to settle for a vanity scoring system for clans that is seperate from the team leaderboard?

I'm looking at these rules and the further down I come the more my head just starts hurting over all these rules and exceptions to 2vs2 battles.
well if the season is going to rank teams in order, then it would be preferable for the clans to be in order of "greatness" rather than some other arbitrary figure, yes. If you don't want a winner or scoring, then it's not at all clear what you could want out of an organised competitive system - unless you're arguing for the whole thing to be abandoned.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 12:44:06 pm by Velvet »

Offline Byron Cavendish

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Re: Regarding the Regarding the structure of the next Competitive Season
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2013, 12:44:49 pm »
I think he wants to compete, just by team not clan, like me. That was unnecessarily aggressive velvet.

Offline Velvet

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Re: Regarding the Regarding the structure of the next Competitive Season
« Reply #36 on: December 03, 2013, 02:02:27 pm »
I think he wants to compete, just by team not clan, like me. That was unnecessarily aggressive velvet.
yeah, in retrospect it seems I may have misunderstood sorry.
Besides my lack of reading skills, no aggression was intended, so again my apologies if that is how I came across.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 02:19:28 pm by Velvet »

Offline Sir Yosh

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Re: Regarding the Regarding the structure of the next Competitive Season
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2013, 03:06:50 pm »
I know it's pretty chaotic thread, but I would like to add here some idea that would IMHO mix clan/team.

You register 2 crews (8 nicknames!) as team under some specific tag.
Every week you can have max 3-5 points from skrimmages. Points go to TEAM.
Every skrimmage you can substitute max 1 player per crew (perhaps excluding pilots?).
Every skrimmage you fly with team-specific TAG.
Once a player signs-up for a season of skrimmages with a specific team they can not help any other team.

If clan is small, it can have 1 team (clan name as tag).
If clan is large, it can have 2-3 teams (i.e. Duck* clan could have teams DckA, DckB), but it can NOT mix or borrow players between teams.


I don't believe anyone will have any right to be angry if some big clan will be able to create 2 different good teams, getting their points separately.
If, for example, DckA team wins the event, then we will know that the entire clan deserves respect.

What I think is perfect about this system is that clan with only 1 team has same chance of winning as many skrimmages as any team from clan with multiple teams, because there are no points for clan, only respect for clan's team(s). This also makes it possible to create inter-clan teams. people from AK, OVW, Ducks, Gent or whatever could create team [XYZ].

*Sorry for using Ducks as an example of big clan. Hope you don't mind. No Ducks were harmed while writing this post :D
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 03:11:56 pm by Sir Yosh »

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Regarding the Regarding the structure of the next Competitive Season
« Reply #38 on: December 03, 2013, 03:32:50 pm »
Every skrimmage you can substitute max 1 player per crew (perhaps excluding pilots?).
Once a player signs-up for a season of skrimmages with a specific team they can not help any other team.

but it can NOT mix or borrow players between teams.[/b]

I'm speaking for myself here and no one else but I think this sums up the issue with teams being entered individually.  I was in the competitive scene for almost 9 months and I typically had to sub on average 2-3 players per match no matter what the event.  Scrimmages, which typically were a bit more casual usally involved grabbing any duck I could find to play, which was honestly one of the best things about scrimmages since any duck who wanted to play competitively could wet their chops on scrims and substituting before a regular crew position opened up on a competitive team.

The ability to allow everyone who wanted to compete the ability to do so, was the best part about competitive play.  Restrictive substitution rules have always rubbed me the wrong way specifically for this reason since it took so much of the fun and community aspect out of competiting.

Offline Sir Yosh

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Re: Regarding the Regarding the structure of the next Competitive Season
« Reply #39 on: December 03, 2013, 03:42:45 pm »
But if you keep substituting missing players with the best ones you have then we go back to 1 elite team per clan :(

Offline Squash

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Re: Regarding the Regarding the structure of the next Competitive Season
« Reply #40 on: December 03, 2013, 04:03:15 pm »
I gotta ask, what was wrong with the last season's system?

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Regarding the Regarding the structure of the next Competitive Season
« Reply #41 on: December 03, 2013, 04:33:08 pm »
But if you keep substituting missing players with the best ones you have then we go back to 1 elite team per clan :(

As far as I understand this is already how most clans are.  They have their best players on their competitive teams and use the best available substitutes to fill in when there are absences. 

The Ducks were never much bigger than other established actively recruiting clans.  They just fielded more teams into tournaments.  When competing in scrimmages they did so under one team banner "Ducks" thereby enjoying the same ability to freely substitute as the rest of the clans.  In tournaments the "Ducks" could only earn points from one team regardless of how many were entered. 

So really, three teams was never an advantage in point gaining.  The Ducks were just vigilant at submitting screenshots, so any time we played in a tournament that was part of the competitive system (like cogs) or we had a scheduled or impromtpu scrim that we won we'd make sure we received credit for it. 

A small dedicated clan that could play a few matches a week or a comparative sized clan that competed regularly could have easily earned the same number of points and probably would have if they had submitted their victories.