Author Topic: Harpoon gun discussion  (Read 19917 times)

Offline Echoez

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Re: Harpoon gun discussion
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2013, 08:51:21 am »
Why would a ballista do more damage than a steam/gunpowder propelled harpoon?  The force applied on the current model I think would be greater.

Smollet come on, we aren't talking about the actual real weapon, get your imagination going, it might as well be a steam-powered repeater ballista with about 3-4 rounds per clip so some ammo variety will be available to it instead of the current 1 ammo harpoon that doesn't realy look like it has a punch behind it at all. Think something like a nail gun, could have a bit of Flechette and a bit of Piercing which is not that bad of a damage combination and only used on the current harpoon, could also utilize the rope mechanic at the last round of a clip for example.

Offline Saull

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Re: Harpoon gun discussion
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2013, 05:24:23 pm »
I would love to see the harpoon or any future harpoon like weapons do damage over time. Like an electric charge that places a fire stack or two every few seconds on to the component the harpoon is attached to. To balance something like that though would maybe need a max limit of stacks that could be applied per connection, requiring a detachment and then reload of a fresh harpoon before doing more damage.

Really I just want to turn the mobula into a big jellyfish

Offline GeoRmr

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Re: Harpoon gun discussion
« Reply #32 on: November 07, 2013, 06:50:39 am »
Honestly, one of my biggest issues with the gun is that harpoons were not used against ships, and the only reason to use one against a whale (given how dangerous they often were to the whalers) was so that you knew where it was when it died. SO WHY ARE WE USING THEM ON AIRSHIPS?!?

Seriously. I'd much rather a huge armor-piercing ballista than a harpoon, because there really isn't a logical reason to keep a ship tied to you when you don't have boarding and you don't need to find it once it's died to harvest its fat for oil.

The new harpoon will come in the same patch as the sky whales DUUUUHHH...

Offline Thomas

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Re: Harpoon gun discussion
« Reply #33 on: November 07, 2013, 12:43:32 pm »
After playing a bit more, I think the harpoon might be a ridiculously fantastic weapon for a coordinated crew. Hitting the enemy in the right spot, you can fly around them and keep tugging the ship, making it difficult for the enemy pilot, and even going so far as to force their guns out of arc. Maybe even make them crash into some terrain/obstacles. Of course this would take a lot of practice to even come close to being feasible, as it would also be tugging at your ship to make things difficult.

Just a thought that occurred when fighting another ship that used harpoons managed to snare the back-right of my pyra and started moving counterclockwise to me. Kept my guns out of arc for a bit as I tried to fight the pull.

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Harpoon gun discussion
« Reply #34 on: November 07, 2013, 05:34:52 pm »
I think the harpoon would be more useful if the harpooning ship got a "Mass Advantage" for the ensuing wonky rope physics. I miss the harpoon before the mass patch, when you could sling shot your opponents into walls.

Offline Serenum

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Re: Harpoon gun discussion
« Reply #35 on: November 07, 2013, 05:41:54 pm »
I think the harpoon would be more useful if the harpooning ship got a "Mass Advantage" for the ensuing wonky rope physics.

That would be nice, unrealistic perhaps, but I don't think it would bother anyone. The harpoon is a horribile weapon, if you actually manage to harpoon an enemy ship in a situation where it would be useful the least you should be able to do is to actually move him around and not be pulled around yourself.

Offline Thomas

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Re: Harpoon gun discussion
« Reply #36 on: November 07, 2013, 05:53:56 pm »
Hm, maybe we should have some kind of tournament based around the harpoon. Just to see what teams can do when they actually (hopefully) try to make good use of it.

Offline snor-laxatives

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Re: Harpoon gun discussion
« Reply #37 on: November 07, 2013, 06:28:56 pm »
Just tossing this idea out there. 

What if instead of linking the two ships together it gave you the opportunity to attach an enemy ship to something else?  Shoot the enemy, shoot the ground, and on the enemy ship just have a whackable spearhead logo that anyone can hit to free themselves from the harpoon?  .... actually, this could give way too much of an advantage to the cannonade.  Pop balloons, then stick um to the ground, too mean.

Another idea then.  What if the shots acted as anchors, slowing ships down, or just making movement sloppier in general.  Maybe instead of anchors you attach an engine pointing in a direction determined by the gunner.  Keep some ships from fleeing, or maybe shoot an ally to help them escape.

My ideas aren't very flushed out, I just think they could be fun ideas.  My only other solution would be to get rid of the realistic approach to tethering the two ships together.  I'd rather have this gun be fun over being realistic.  (Says the sky captain flying a Zeppelin through post-apocalyptic skies

Offline HamsterIV

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Re: Harpoon gun discussion
« Reply #38 on: November 07, 2013, 07:17:08 pm »
Snor-laxatives:

There was some discussion similar to what you were talking about back in march, we even got awkm to chip in.
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,332.msg5218.html#msg5218

Offline snor-laxatives

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Re: Harpoon gun discussion
« Reply #39 on: November 08, 2013, 02:27:45 am »
A bomb cart idea is awesome!  Maybe instead of the cart being controlled by altitude (even though that makes sense according to gravity and such) the engineers used the current repair tools to move the cart closer to the opponents ship (and this works both ways).  You want to attach a mine on a rope to an enemy ship?  Better have your two engies working on sending it that way or the other ship will send it back at yah.  That way its still countable, doesnt make ballon popping ships OP, and you dont have to worry about adding another repair tool.  It could even work as simple as the engineers hitting the harpoon gun itself, and the other engineers hitting the ! mentioned in those posts

Offline Serenum

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Re: Harpoon gun discussion
« Reply #40 on: November 08, 2013, 04:45:20 am »
Hm, maybe we should have some kind of tournament based around the harpoon. Just to see what teams can do when they actually (hopefully) try to make good use of it.

What would that accomplish?
I have actually tried to make good use of the harpoon. Other people have. In fact I would say anyone that has tried the harpoon even once has.
If a weapon is viable only in the hands of an elite few it's NOT a good weapon and most important it's awful design.

The situation is so clear that there is no need for further tests and proofs, the harpoon needs to be changed, period.

Offline Thomas

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Re: Harpoon gun discussion
« Reply #41 on: November 08, 2013, 08:54:13 am »
Hm, maybe we should have some kind of tournament based around the harpoon. Just to see what teams can do when they actually (hopefully) try to make good use of it.

What would that accomplish?
I have actually tried to make good use of the harpoon. Other people have. In fact I would say anyone that has tried the harpoon even once has.
If a weapon is viable only in the hands of an elite few it's NOT a good weapon and most important it's awful design.

The situation is so clear that there is no need for further tests and proofs, the harpoon needs to be changed, period.

It's just that it's such a unique weapon in the game, not relying on direct damage at all; but instead creating a link between ships, pulling them together and making it difficult to fly.

I'm sure everyone has 'tried' the harpoon at some point, but I don't think anyone has put serious effort into it; actually attempting to make use of the weapon instead of just having it around for the achievement or chuckles. Doing it for the achievement isn't really trying to make good use of the weapon, since their trying to just make sure it hits before destroying the enemy as fast as possible, not caring about using the physics to their advantage.

No one takes it seriously. It's far from the easiest weapon to use, but that doesn't mean it's only effective in the hands of the elite. I think people just need to take more time to try and test ways to use it better, instead of asking for it to be changed because it's not used in the way they want it to be used.

A Harpoon-based tournament might encourage some of the more competitive to take time and test it out more, especially if it's use is required to win. It's no doubt a weapon that takes more crew coordination that other weapons. When do you use it? What ships do you hit with it? Where do you hit them with it? Can you use it so that their gun arcs stay off you or your ally longer? Can you use it so that your gun arcs are easier to keep on the enemy? Can you drag them into obstacles while avoiding those obstacles yourself?

A bad use of it might be sticking it on the front gun of a squid and harpooning the side of a galleon. Suddenly you're reeling yourself in right towards their guns. So you really do have to work with your crew, letting them know when to shoot and where to shoot; kind of like the flare gun: it's very situational, possibly being an advantage or disadvantage depending on how it's used.



Now if people do take it seriously and still can't make good use of it, then it might very well be an awful weapon. Needing to be changed or continued to be used for achievements only and occasions where players just want whacky all harpoon matches.

Offline Serenum

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Re: Harpoon gun discussion
« Reply #42 on: November 08, 2013, 09:46:33 am »
I assure you I did take it seriously and I've tried it before on a multitude of ships and situations.
Harpoon physics are quite simply broken and unpredictable and also counterintuitive, as I described in detail in the OP it's perfectly possible to have an harpooned ship pulling you to the right and yet being unable to turn your ship in that direction. Sometimes the harpoon rope looks like it acts like a solid, rigid pole connecting the two ships, preventing you from getting close or moving away from the harpooned ship. And so on.
But that's beyond the point.

What you don't seem to be getting is that a weapon that require so much effort in order to be even remotely useful is broken by default. This is a game, not a job, and it already has a steep learning curve. There is no justification for having a weapon such as the harpoon around to add frustration for new and experienced players alike.
No other weapon in this game is so hard to use and has so little benefits to it. Even the humble flare gun can at least be used to set fires on an enemy ship, aside from its more obvious role of countering clouds.

I honestly don't understand why would anyone try to justify the harpoon in its current form. Yeah it's good for shits and giggles once in a while when used in the occasional joke build, but aside from that? It's a pain in the ass.
And a tournament won't change that. The average player would still try the weapon, be frustrated by it and never use it again. Which goes back to my point that having an elite few mastering the weapon still dosen't mean that the weapon itself is fine.
I would even argue that IF such a tournament were to bring new life to the harpoon in the competitive scene it would make things even worse. Suddendly experienced players are harpooning ships left and right while the average player doesn't know how to react and is frustrated that he can't use it himself because let's be honest, most people don't have the dedication it takes to master even the basic weapons and builds, much less something like the harpoon.

I'm going to say this again.
There is nothing to argue here, no gray area. The proofs are right in front of us, nobody uses the harpoon. Just like the predominance of a weapon or combo in the public scene was enough to nerf the gat-mortar combo, the total absence of a weapon in said public games should be enought to warrant a redesign.

Offline Thomas

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Re: Harpoon gun discussion
« Reply #43 on: November 08, 2013, 12:52:31 pm »
Queso mentioned pretty early in the thread that changes were in the works, but they don't have a very high priority; so it will change, but probably not immediately.

I still like to believe that even in it's current state (and yeah, the mechanics feel wonky) it can be a useful tool in the right hands. It takes a certain desire and playstyle to make use of it. Right now there is very little (basically no) desire from players to try and work with the weapon. It's just so much easier and straightforward to shoot them out of the sky.


An organized event based around the thing might show it does have some use, or (more likely) make it more apparent that it needs a fix. Right now it's relatively unused state, no one cares about it; which is one of the reasons it has such a low priority for being adjusted. And with such little input (since it's relatively unused) it's hard to say how to adjust it properly.

That's some reasons for having an organized event for it. Gathering data, player input, and raising awareness of the issue.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Harpoon gun discussion
« Reply #44 on: November 08, 2013, 03:44:16 pm »
Queso mentioned pretty early in the thread that changes were in the works, but they don't have a very high priority; so it will change, but probably not immediately.

I still like to believe that even in it's current state (and yeah, the mechanics feel wonky) it can be a useful tool in the right hands. It takes a certain desire and playstyle to make use of it. Right now there is very little (basically no) desire from players to try and work with the weapon. It's just so much easier and straightforward to shoot them out of the sky.


An organized event based around the thing might show it does have some use, or (more likely) make it more apparent that it needs a fix. Right now it's relatively unused state, no one cares about it; which is one of the reasons it has such a low priority for being adjusted. And with such little input (since it's relatively unused) it's hard to say how to adjust it properly.

That's some reasons for having an organized event for it. Gathering data, player input, and raising awareness of the issue.

Well, the harpoon does currently have some good uses like on some very specific Galleon builds but most people (including Muse staff) believe it needs a buff.  The rumor mill has it that the tow strength, piercing strength as well as an alternate fire controlling the reeling of the gun are all being looked into however the gun requires a lot of time and effort to alter thereby knocking it lower on the priority list. 

Muse has stated it needs to be altered before adventure mode comes out but has been very vague on when it will change.