Author Topic: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE  (Read 59996 times)

Offline geggis

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #45 on: October 31, 2013, 08:19:03 am »
The main problem I have with the chem spray is the fact that it gets 0 cooldown if the part is fully repaired and not on fire, but the full cooldown if the part has even slight damage but still isn't on fire yet. Same with the extinguisher, but it's not supposed to be used BEFORE getting set on fire, so it's not a big deal.

You can't be coming close to an enemy ship that has a flamethrower, and suddenly decide you're gonna spray the entire ship real quick. If there's any sort of damage on and being done to the hull, that cooldown can be deadly. Same if the captain is using an engine damaging tool to get close to the flame ship. Spraying the engines means you've got that cooldown before they can get repaired again, and with moonshine on, thats a big deal.

Is it at all possible to make chem spray only initiate a cooldown if it's actively putting out fire? That would simplify the use of the tool down from "Pre-spray a part if you think you're going to be engaging an enemy that has fire weapons within the next 20 seconds and the part in question is  not going to be taking damage over the next 6 seconds or is currently entirely repaired" to "pre-spray a part if you think it's gonna get set on fire soon". I might like it then.

A bit late pulling this up, but I think this is an important point to consider when it comes to the cooling down. No cooldown if there's no fire -- or a short cooldown after EVERY spray regardless of component health or fire status (to keep it consistent and intuitive) -- coupled with increased fire protection duration (perhaps 30 seconds?) could help a lot.

Offline awkm

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #46 on: October 31, 2013, 12:35:32 pm »
I've made some adjustments for Chem Spray on dev app.  More details on dev app forum board.

Offline The Djinn

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2013, 02:21:06 pm »
I've made some adjustments for Chem Spray on dev app.  More details on dev app forum board.

For those of us new to the Dev App: where or how can we find this board? Or is it somewhere obvious and am I just being oblivious?

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #48 on: October 31, 2013, 02:34:58 pm »
Its in a seperate part of this forum. If you cant see it mail your ingame name to muse. (not sure which email it was though)

Offline awkm

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #49 on: October 31, 2013, 02:35:30 pm »
It's listed under the Admin section of the board page. 

https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php

Offline The Djinn

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #50 on: October 31, 2013, 04:43:05 pm »
It's listed under the Admin section of the board page. 

https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php

Hm. Must be something wrong on my end then...I'm not seeing an Admin section, let alone a Dev App forum.

Offline awkm

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #51 on: October 31, 2013, 04:58:52 pm »
There might be something up with forum configuration.  I'll double check.


Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #52 on: October 31, 2013, 05:04:37 pm »
Some testers have not gotten access to the Dev App board in the past. Bugging Keyvias about it usually seems to work.

Offline Captain McFaceSmashy

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #53 on: November 01, 2013, 11:53:40 am »
Hey, I'm going to try to make this short and sweet since I'm in the middle of preparing for exams atm,,

I've seen a couple of things I'd thought of floating around here (and sorry if I missed some I may have skimmed some of the posts) and would like to give my thoughts on them (some of these ideas may not have been posted yet).

The current situation: extinguisher (reactive) chemspray (proactive)

In gameplay I find that the extinguisher does its job well, you see fire, you go over and then spray it, the fire goes away, you go back to something else until the fire gets too high again (possibly waiting the 3s to give a hammer whack as well). You react to the fire.

The chemspray kinda does its job, but it does it in a really awkward manner. If you want to protect your ship (even only the critical components) you're going to be spending most of your time running around like a crazed hobo spraying left and right trying to keep up with the 20 second duration. Not to mention if you want it to be truly preventative (proactive) you have to start doing all this, and keep doing all this, while absolutely nothing is shooting fire at you yet, because if you wait for them to be almost in range of your ship, you won't get to spray the components in time, not to mention you'll have started taking regular damage from other sources and that shit needs fixing(cooldowns), and you have ships to spot and stuff to buff... And oh boy if someone decided to whack the hull with a mallet just before you could chemspray it, and all those firestacks are rising up... it can be kinda infuriating.

What I don't like in theory about the current chemspray is it's nature as a hard-counter to fire damage. The full immunity is, as has been mentioned by others, an all or nothing kind of deal. Either it completely negates the damage and disabling from ships like a double-flamethrower squid, or it just doesn't function (not compared to the extinguisher at least). My biggest problem though is that it lacks any real counterplay if it's good. If the chemspray works properly with full immunity, the opposing team has no way of knowing what you've sprayed (if they even know if you've sprayed it) and thus can't work around it (unless they just have other guns to fire, but that's besides the point).

If full immunity is an adamant requirement however, simply reducing the cooldown on the chemspray and/or increasing it's duration should work fine to make it viable.

Now OTHER options include, but are not limited to:

1. Chemspray lasts WAY longer but gives only a % reduction in chance of firestacks
2. Chemspray lasts WAY longer, and negates firedamage, but doesn't stop stacks from being applied.
3. A combination of the above, where it reduces the % stacks applied and damage done while active (but not fully negate either)
4. Chemspray removes firestacks over time (possibly in combination with any of the above) with the possibility of continuous spraying removing stacks faster (either directly or by increasing the strength of the buff)


The first option is pretty viable, assuming the cooldown on chemspray (or extinguishing power) becomes good enough that you can remove what stacks got through the buff after the fight is over, but for it to be effective without compromising the "proactive" quote you would need such a high percentage of reduction that it might as well be immunity.

The second option I dislike alot, because it essentially requires you to have an extinguisher, or keep the buff up indefinitely (not to mention it once again completely negates firedamage going through, which feels shit to play against)

The third option I'm allright with, it allows your opponent to get some firestacks through and do some damage, but alot less than they otherwise would, and refreshing the buff should remove enough stacks for the total damage reduction to be comparable to the extinguisher. I feel however that it would do better combined with the last option.

The fourth option is my favorite, because it is entirely proactive, doesn't completely negate flamethrowers, and depending on the specific implementation can "if done perfectly" entirely negate firestacks (which is ofcourse impossible in practice). The main reason I like this idea is because it allows the engineers to spend time doing other things (like repairing the buffed stuff or shooting guns while the buff takes care of the fire-stacks as they pop up) because they applied it beforehand. It has a "good job" proactive feel to it. The way the other flame-retardants work is either you don't see any firestacks pop up at all (did your buff even contribute anything?) or you just see less stacks popping up (was the chemspray worth it, or would I have been better off with the extinguisher?) where as this gives direct feedback that it's working (I can see the stacks go up and then get removed by my buff, I saved time extinguishing now by spraying earlier!)

well that was probably longer than I intended but I hope it contributes something, time to get back to learning ;)

Offline Prof. Giles Percy

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #54 on: November 01, 2013, 12:04:08 pm »
What if chem spay lasted much longer, but instead of fire immunity it granted the parts stacks of "cool" so in order to burn that part the fire stacks would first subtract from the cool stacks, once the cool has been negated fire works as normal.

Offline Serenum

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #55 on: November 01, 2013, 01:13:09 pm »
What if chem spay lasted much longer, but instead of fire immunity it granted the parts stacks of "cool" so in order to burn that part the fire stacks would first subtract from the cool stacks, once the cool has been negated fire works as normal.

We have suggested that, but it was discarded.
Basically the only tweaks that are viable, if I understand correctly, are the simple numerical values of things like cooldown, stacks of fire removed and duration of the fire immunity.

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #56 on: November 01, 2013, 01:25:20 pm »
The problem of such a cooling thing would be that it is disabled to quick by a flamer. And if not its overpowered against every fire mechanic.

Offline Crafeksterty

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2013, 09:26:46 am »
I think the main problem of the Chem spray is that we dont really know how long it lasts.

20 seconds is a life saver versus fires, but how long does 20 seconds last exactly within a game? There is no prompt or description telling you how long this thing lasts just as youve sprayed something.


My Mechanich recommendation is highly unrealistic but has a pretty odd dynamic to it:

When you have one component chemsprayed, it is chemprayed forever. Add another 4 seconds to its cooldown. But as soon as you chem spray something else, the previouse chemspray looses its chem buff. Add 2 more fire stacks on chemming.

What this does is make the engineer choose whether to chemspray something else just to extuinguish it or not. This is also then a very good tool for gunengineers where they dont have to run around reactively. Heatsink is allready like this in a way. Just that it is only used on weapons. This is for components.

So if im this big hunk of spire constantly taking fire on the baloon, i dont want that. But il have to deal with the fact that everything else can catch easy fire.


Other than that i really feel like engineers need a new tool to play with. A secondary buff tool would be nice. Every other tool has a sister, the buff hammer needs a sister for the sake of not having default ships flying around. When ships pull of great feats like vertically dodging a heavy clip hwacha barrage as a galleon is always really nice to see.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2013, 11:38:24 am »
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2763.msg48154.html#msg48154

- Chemical Spray: Increase fire immunity duration to 25s (from 20s), Reduced cooldown time to 3s (from 5s)

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2013, 03:54:32 pm »
- Chemical Spray: Increase fire immunity duration to 25s (from 20s), Reduced cooldown time to 3s (from 5s)

I have no issue at all with this buff to chem spray. It's what was left out of the patch notes that worries me. When a component is damaged but not on fire, chem spray (and presumably the extinguisher, but that's not important here) does not apply a cooldown anymore. This means it's much, much easier to chem spray a component, and you can keep it permanently chemmed by using the tool in between mallet cooldowns. In a lot of roles (notably the Pyra main engi) this renders the extinguisher absolutely useless, and makes enemy fire weapons seem pretty laughable.

The buffs to the cooldown time and duration are fine and should remain, but it really, really needs to have a cooldown when used on a damaged component.