Author Topic: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE  (Read 23144 times)

Offline awkm

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1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« on: October 28, 2013, 01:26:24 pm »

Offline dragonmere

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2013, 02:48:42 pm »
As someone who strongly prefered extinguisher to chem spray pre-patch, you have just solidified my "no chem spray" rule on my ships.

I don't see anything WRONG with the extinguisher changes, either in theory or (very limited) practice (this may change as I try it out more). The chem spray might need some tweaks in the future to even out its viability though.

If the chem spray lasted a bit longer, and/or included a visual effect decay (like the active buff meter), I'd be much more inclined to suggest it. The low effect time plus difficulty in keeping parts sprayed consistently seems like more of a burden than a benefit in most situations. Considering that you won't have to worry about gaining a 20 stack of fire during an extinguisher cooldown anymore, I see very little incentive to invest the time and effort required to become proficient with chem spray.

The chem spray seems like it would only find its place among experienced and efficient crews, and in very specific circumstances. IMO the usefulness divide between the two SHOULD aim to be 50/50.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2013, 05:11:42 pm »
I'm in agreement about the extinguisher. We already had a sizable portion of the community using only extinguishers even when facing heavy use of fire. Yeah, chilling in fire means you can't keep the fire down with just an extinguisher but is that not the point?

Why buff the preferred tool with neither a buff to the other tool or even a buff to flames. It would be understandable if flames were over powered but honestly they are pretty damn balanced.

Offline Lord Dick Tim

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #3 on: October 29, 2013, 03:28:21 am »
I find it hard to come up with tested conclusions when the overall performance picture, or the intended picture, isn't clearly defined.  I can see the stats, work the mechanics and report back my finding; the impact the findings leave on me feel bitter to taste.

I'd like to see a developer intended setup as a baseline for the use of each tool and item on ship.  This can give me a better idea of how well I feel the current tools conform to this idea.

Offline NoWuffo

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #4 on: October 29, 2013, 04:35:10 am »
As someone who strongly prefered extinguisher to chem spray pre-patch, you have just solidified my "no chem spray" rule on my ships.

I quite agree. In my opinion, the "fireproof" reward of the chem spray is nullified by the fact that it only lasts for 20 seconds. Being proactive with chemspray against a flaming enemy could potentially render it useless, but actually being proactive with it in it's current setup is not worth it if it means you're taking a gunner away from a gun or an engi away from the hull. The other downside to it is with a 5 second cooldown, the tool is rendered useless against any fire stack over 6-9. At that point, just go take care of something else and let it smolder, then rebuild it once it breaks, or call down someone with an extinguisher. I think the chem spray should be the next thing looked at in terms of balance.

Offline Serenum

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2013, 06:19:03 am »
At this point a complete redesign of the chem spray is in order.
Some time ago someone proposed turning the chem spray application into a buffing process, like the buffing tool, with the effect lasting longer but requiring multiple applications  of the chem spray in order to kick in.
I think that's the way to go, for balance's sake, even if I dislike fire getting an indirect nerf.
If I had any saying on the matter I would roll back this latest buff on the fire extinguisher, slightly buff the chem spray and leave fire and related mechanics alone.

Offline geggis

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2013, 07:10:20 am »
Some time ago someone proposed turning the chem spray application into a buffing process, like the buffing tool, with the effect lasting longer but requiring multiple applications  of the chem spray in order to kick in.

Yeah I remember reading that somewhere and thought it was a great idea.

Chemgineers? Chemgineers.

Offline NoWuffo

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2013, 07:20:50 am »
At this point a complete redesign of the chem spray is in order.
Some time ago someone proposed turning the chem spray application into a buffing process, like the buffing tool, with the effect lasting longer but requiring multiple applications  of the chem spray in order to kick in.

In my mind, the problem with this would be how it would serve to actually put out fire. Chem spray is meant to be a lesser extinguisher with the added benefit of fire-proofing for a short period. The downside is that right now the reward isn't worth the cut in extinguishing power, I think that's what they need to balance. If they could change it akin to the buff, cool. But you still want to have 2 options of eliminating fire.

Offline geggis

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2013, 07:27:48 am »
I think maintaining fire-proofing would be worth the cut in extinguish power if the fire-proofing could be sustained like a buff (meaning you'd have to juggle it across components for maximum effectiveness). With the Hades buff (I really don't think it needed buffing tbh) you might see a lot more fire to justify fire-proofing things before engagements.

Offline Kriegson

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2013, 07:31:42 am »
Not a lot to add from experience, though chemgineer idea sounds interesting. Alternative to the buff hammer with more defensive minded effects perhaps? Application will reduce X fire stacks every Y seconds. I think you should be able to entirely remove fire on one part (Extinguisher) or reduce its effect on multiple parts (chem spray concept) but not simply make your entire ship immune for extended periods of time through efficient use.

Not saying flamthrowers are hard to use or require intelligent play, but to simply have your engies chem spray everything constantly to completely invalidate a weapon is pretty harsh.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 07:33:38 am by Kriegson »

Offline geggis

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2013, 07:49:54 am »
I like the sound of it reducing stacks over time rather than it outright blocking fire damage. It would almost free up engineers from putting out fires if the fires weren't heavy enough but the downside would be that fire would always do damage and chem spray wouldn't put fires out directly. It would pretty much force fire wielders to lay it on heavy and hard and this would in turn work well with the new fire stack icons/markers.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 07:57:02 am by geggis »

Offline Kriegson

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #11 on: October 29, 2013, 08:04:35 am »
I like the sound of it reducing stacks over time rather than it outright blocking fire damage. It would almost free up engineers from putting out fires if the fires weren't heavy enough but the downside would be that fire would always do damage and chem spray wouldn't put fires out directly. It would pretty much force fire wielders to lay it on heavy and hard and this would in turn work well with the new fire stack icons/markers.
It would probably be a good idea to run with 1 chem 1 extinguisher and between that you could handle the worst bits immediately and let the rest taper off, repairing at opportune times. Some might not like the idea of it becoming even more passive though.

Offline awkm

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #12 on: October 29, 2013, 11:14:40 am »
I am here and watching.

Offline The Djinn

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2013, 12:00:29 pm »
I like the sound of it reducing stacks over time rather than it outright blocking fire damage. It would almost free up engineers from putting out fires if the fires weren't heavy enough but the downside would be that fire would always do damage and chem spray wouldn't put fires out directly. It would pretty much force fire wielders to lay it on heavy and hard and this would in turn work well with the new fire stack icons/markers.

What if instead of applying retroactively it applied proactively? Say it granted parts a 50-75% chance to resist fire. In effect, you'd reduce incoming Flamethrower fire chance (per particle) from about 24% to 6-12%, depending where the actual numbers fall. A Flare Gun might only apply 3-5 stacks of fire instead of 10.

You could get away with a slightly longer buff time AND with keeping the actual extinguishing numbers low (even at the 3 it currently is), and it would be balanced out by the reduced (but not removed) chance of accruing fire stacks in the first place.

It gives both tools a more defined role: Extinguisher is raw extinguishing power, Chem Spray is safety at the expense of knowing that continual exposure to fire (sitting in a flamethrower, for example) will eventually spiral out of control.

The percentage could also scale down either over time, or with fire stacks: Maybe something like resist equal to (70% - 3% per current stack on the component), so that the Chem Spray is better for short engagements vs. fire, but definitively worse against long exposure.

Offline awkm

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Re: 1.3.3 ENGINEER AND REPAIR TOOL BALANCE
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2013, 12:18:09 pm »
Any game mechanic change isn't going to happen any time soon.  Suggesting a new mechanic is fine but let's not dwell on the assumption that its going to go in next patch.

Things I can change: cooldown, extinguish power (charge removal), fire resistance %, fire resistance time.  Those can go in during hot fix.

Extinguisher is reactive.  Chemical spray is proactive.  Those are the two design constraints and intentions between the two.