Author Topic: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE  (Read 126708 times)

Offline Garou

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2013, 02:32:14 am »
The thing that irritates me about the gat nerf is that it took real skill to nail a gat clip from that far away (750m). I sincerely doubt that enough people were able to do it reliably enough to the point that it was an issue, and more to the point, I -liked- the fact that the gat took skill. In fact, I prided myself on it. Not to sound cocky, but very few people in the game were able to do what i could do with the gat, and it felt good to have that kind of mastery over it. Now you can only hit from so close a range that anyone can do it, and that, to me, just sucks.

As it stands, why even bother using a gat? You could take a carronade for hull stripping, and it has the added benefit of being able to pop balloons. It's only a 75m difference. I'll give this patch a chance but frankly I feel the gat had been tweaked enough by the last patch. It was already to the point that it took more than one clip to strip a hull against a moderately effective engineer.

I enjoy brawling. It's intense and it takes a skilled crew to do well. I'm all for giving long range players options, but I feel like those of us who prefer mid-to-short range engagements are getting the short end of the stick here. More to the point, look at the top competitive teams right now. They all use long range to great effect. Yeah, it takes skilled, coordinated crews, but it -should-. Do we really want the game to devolve into constant sniping matches? Matches that take 15 minutes per kill because everyone is camping, because you -have- to?

With all due respect to the programmers and devs (and I sincerely have a lot for you guys), I feel like some of these changes should get some input from the community before they go live. It's your game, but we're the ones playing it.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 02:41:55 am by Garou »

Offline Garou

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2013, 02:35:41 am »
The hwacha has become interesting as well with the ship parts being easier to hit on ships. Any thoughts on that so far? It pounds very hard.
I personally feel that's another negative change. The hwacha didn't need the help. Regardless of what weapon you use to do it, disabling guns -should- be a skill shot. It shouldn't be 'easy', and it's another way that brawling has been made nearly obsolete. Now that it's easier than ever to completely disable a ship while it's on it's way in, why bother going in at all? Just camp on opposite sides of the map with lumberjacks and artemis rockets and go to town. Good long range galleons were hard enough to take down before, now they're ridiculous.

Offline Salous

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2013, 03:04:04 am »
The thing that irritates me about the gat nerf is that it took real skill to nail a gat clip from that far away (750m). I sincerely doubt that enough people were able to do it reliably enough to the point that it was an issue, and more to the point, I -liked- the fact that the gat took skill. In fact, I prided myself on it. Not to sound cocky, but very few people in the game were able to do what i could do with the gat, and it felt good to have that kind of mastery over it. Now you can only hit from so close a range that anyone can do it, and that, to me, just sucks.


I agree with you Garou, the gat was a skill based weapon. I have not seen many people who could hit the shots at long distance. If you were able to, then it was an advantage. In no way was it standard for people to do so.

Now, with this new patch, brawling is not worth it. Just take a long ranged ship, sit back, and snipe. It seems that this patch is taking a step back from opening up the options for combat.

Offline NoWuffo

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2013, 04:22:06 am »
There's always uproar with every patch from players, normally the GoIO community being split down the middle with people favoring different styles. This patch, however, has struck a nerve with pretty much all higher level players of this game. Almost unanimously, both brawler and sniper teams combined feel as if the brawler nerf was way out of balance. It seems like every patch, the pattern has been the same. Nerf the pyra, nerf the gat. This patch, they ignored the pyra, yay. But the range reductions on the gats and mortars, along with the damage reduction and jitter increase for both guns respectively, don't just balance the metamidion, they render it completely inept in any given fight.

I'm sorry, but I see no purpose to cutting the range of the gat, especially not by the amount that they did. I've flown with Salous for quite a while, and I know him to be pretty much one of the best gat gunners in the game. He would have those shots on target the second they were within range, something that most players couldn't do. I can only assume Garou is right up there with him. To say that the gat is NOT a skill weapon is an insult to them in this game. The point is, the gat has been rendered completely useless. And yes, I was in the developer's app, I've known about this for longer than today, don't tell me the right pilots haven't tested it yet.

For the sake of this game, I can't wait to see what develops as the new meta, however I feel as if the pyra's finest days are behind it. I fear that the competitive scene will devolve into the "15 minute per kill" sniping battles where everyone camps forever. One of the reasons why the Wolves were just so damn scary was because they were different from the norm in the competitive scene. They took one thing, mastered it, and threw it at their opponents every time. That wasn't a sign of imbalance, that was a tribute to their players, and my hat's off to them. We'll see what comes, but needless to say I am not happy with this most latest patch.

Offline Garou

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2013, 04:55:21 am »
This patch, they ignored the pyra, yay.
Not entirely. They made the guns on the pyra bigger, easier to hit targets.

Offline NoWuffo

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #35 on: October 29, 2013, 05:13:09 am »
This patch, they ignored the pyra, yay.
Not entirely. They made the guns on the pyra bigger, easier to hit targets.

True, however I will admit this was well needed. I'm a pyra pilot myself (well... I was), and I even know the hit boxes were kinda messed up.

Offline Serenum

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #36 on: October 29, 2013, 06:12:35 am »
I still haven't tested this new patch as much as others, but I think that a gat-mortar nerf was in order.
They might have overdone it though. The ideal result to me would have been no more one-clip kills, requiring metamydions and similar builds to have at least the time and skill to empty two magazines on the target before getting a kill. The range nerf wasn't really needed.

I don't like the idea of a sniper buff, mostly because sniper ships are awfully boring to pilot and totally dependent on their gunner's skill to defend and attack. We'll see how the meta developes.

Special thanks to Muse for nerfing the mortar right when I have to grind 2 achivements for it, that was nice.  :'(

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2013, 06:38:59 am »
The ideal result to me would have been no more one-clip kills, requiring metamydions and similar builds to have at least the time and skill to empty two magazines on the target before getting a kill. The range nerf wasn't really needed.

why is that the ideal? why is it that after crossing an entire map taking fire the entire way in(from MULTIPLE clips i would bet) giving ample opportunity to my opponent to kill me WAY before i even get in range in order to return fire, i then have to make sure my boat is at the perfect angle because my pyra is not only has the fewest amount of guns on a single arc but it is also one of the least maneuverable ships, but dont worry i can offset that by damaging my engines and inhibiting my hull repairs, which is no problem because i have less HP than the ship i am charging, to keep anything in arc, giving my opponent another opportunity to buy time by using vertical or horizontal movement in order to unload yet another clip into me, and you think after ALL that the "IDEAL" is that with your engi doing absolutely nothing i should have to wait through an entire clip and a reload to bring down your ARMOR? and that is to say nothing about your perma hull that i now have less shots to take down than before, do you see how ridiculous that is? the balance already existed, long range has LONG RANGE and brawlers have to traverse that range, and mines, and WHEN WE FINALLY GET THERE YOU HAVE A SET OF BRAWLER GUNS ALSO!!!

i have never played a game where the tankiest character is also the DPS the disabler AND the range. i mean you want 2 of the 4 that's fine but ALL 4? cmon galleon.  i have also never played a game where a character that has the second best HP in the game can out DPS someone BOTH at range and melee, AND is also one of the most agile.  you ever heard of that? junker... oh and our melee/barbarian/rogue friend will not only have some of the worst HP but will also have the least amount of DPS suck it up squid/pyra
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 06:43:47 am by -Mad Maverick- »

Offline Garou

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #38 on: October 29, 2013, 06:45:24 am »
I still haven't tested this new patch as much as others, but I think that a gat-mortar nerf was in order.
They might have overdone it though. The ideal result to me would have been no more one-clip kills, requiring metamydions and similar builds to have at least the time and skill to empty two magazines on the target before getting a kill. The range nerf wasn't really needed.
One-clip kills on the 'metamydion' (a phrase I personally loathe...) required skill. It took coordination between gunners, knowing your arcs and angles, and knowing how much clip to save for those kill shots. Gats required skill to land the shots needed for the strip and morters required patients, reflexes, and keen timing to be effective, especially at the competition level. Additionally, they require you to get up close and stay there. Charging in is difficult even for seasoned pilots, and on top of that it takes a rock solid engineer to keep the ship in one piece until you get there.

For everyone bemoaning how 'easy' gat/morter was and how 'OP' it was, I submit one simple, yet valid, question: Why are they so rare in upper tier competition teams? Let's ignore pubs for a moment and speak strictly of competitions and well organized clans, because pubs are a wildcard. You get players of varying skill and ability, and even when you get a ship of skilled players together there's no guarantee they're going to be on the same page.

Morter/gat pyras were never invincible. Granted, the ram kills needed to be toned back, but the gat/morter was neither as easy or as fool-proof as many have made them out to be, and for those who preferred alternatives there were equally effective options. There were also plenty of counters to them. Artemis, hwacha, lumberjack/heavy flak, or a skilled merc or mine gunner were all quite capable of dismantling a pyra, even pre-nerf. I speak from experience. We in Wolfpack are pretty well known for our 'metamydions', and I've been on the losing side a few times against very skilled teams. They could always be beaten if one was willing to design a ship to do just that.

I've said it for a long time, the crew makes the ship, not vice-versa. We've all seen both good and bad pyras, and everyone posting in this thread now has beaten at -least- one gat/morter pyra. They weren't nearly as imbalanced as they were made out to be, they just frustrated people because the tactic is basic: rush in and try for the quick kill. Because it's basic, everyone assumes that equates to not needing skill. However we've all seen what a bad gat/morter pyra looks like, and again I'll poise a question: If it requires no skill to use, and it's as OP as everyone says, why doesn't everyone who uses one win every time?


Offline Serenum

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #39 on: October 29, 2013, 07:00:15 am »
@ Mad Maverik
The opponent had "ample opportunity" to kill you only if it had a longer range loadout, which it's not always the case. Before this patch gat-mortar was medium range after all.
The rest of your post is incoherent rambling so if you don't mind I'll just skip it.

@ Garou
No, it never required skill, you are deluding yourself if you think that's the case. It just required crew coordination, minimal crew coordination I might add.
Charging in is difficult? Seriously? Going in a straight line towards an enemy ship is difficult? Exactly HOW desperate are you guys to keep the meta inside your comfort zone?

Again in your argument both of you are assuming an opponent on a sniper ship that is aware of your position all the time. This is a pretty big fallacy and shows how limited you are in your thinking. Let's not even adress the strawman argument like "pyramidions were never invicible" (who even said that?) and just move on.
If your posts accomplished anything is convincing me that this nerf was in fact exactly what this game needed.

Still not convinced about the sniper buff, but I bet you can manage that in a couple of posts.

Offline Kriegson

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #40 on: October 29, 2013, 07:01:13 am »
If it requires no skill to use, and it's as OP as everyone says, why doesn't everyone who uses one win every time?
Funny thing you should pose this as your argument, yesterday I was playing the early access of contagion (A slow, return to romero style zombie game) when a speedhacker showed up on the map. So I climbed into a room that forced him to use a ladder or window to follow me and watched both with a shotgun, waiting for him to come up. Getting the first hit as soon as he climbed, and then getting the second to finish him off as he panicked.

Moral of the story? Even with a massive advantage, you can still lose if you're outsmarted or outplayed. "If it's op, then why does it lose?" is not a good argument.

That said, can't wait to get off work and give the patch a shot. I imagine mortar/gat will still be viable in general play.

@Serenum
Scathing, but I also feel this is accurate. A great wailing and gnashing of teeth over a few degrees of inaccuracy and other elements, claiming that the devs are "removing options" when before pretty much all anyone used was gat/mortar.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 07:06:49 am by Kriegson »

Offline Garou

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #41 on: October 29, 2013, 07:11:47 am »
@ Garou
No, it never required skill, you are deluding yourself if you think that's the case. It just required crew coordination, minimal crew coordination I might add.
Charging in is difficult? Seriously? Going in a straight line towards an enemy ship is difficult? Exactly HOW desperate are you guys to keep the meta inside your comfort zone?
Oh get off your high horse. You know what, I'm fine with experimentation. I'm fine with wanting to try different things. More power to you. But complaining about 'meta' when you use bad ship builds just smacks of hurt feelings and a fundamental misunderstanding of the game's core mechanics. You know why you have trouble with 'meta' builds in Cake? It's because you go into a match with 3 banchees and 2 flame throwers and can't figure out why that doesn't work.

I love the Cake guys I play with, you know who you are, but I'm sick of hearing some of you whine so vocally about meta because your broken, self-nerfed builds don't work. Guess what, explosive damage doesn't work with explosive damage. Using a banchee/flamer might be fun, but it's not effective with how the mechanics are designed.

Try something that actually strips a hull some time. You'd be amazed at the results.

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #42 on: October 29, 2013, 07:22:29 am »
@ Mad Maverik
The opponent had "ample opportunity" to kill you only if it had a longer range loadout, which it's not always the case. Before this patch gat-mortar was medium range after all.
The rest of your post is incoherent rambling so if you don't mind I'll just skip it.

there are two things that are clear from you serenum,

1. you are unaware that this entire debate is about close range vs short range.  it is stupendously obvious that we aren't talking about how a nerf will effect the combat between two ships using the same weapon types.  we have been discussing at length at this point about how this patch has made long range load outs far TOO effective and rendered the short range options crippled.  the fact that you havent pick up on this ALMOST makes me dismiss you but because for the sake of other people who may be reading this i will continue.

2.  that you are not a very successful competitive player.  this is made obvious by 2 things:
       A. you believe charging in on a team of sniping ships is easy.  this makes it painfully obvious you have not faced an actually good team at sniping yet. (charge a duck or gents team, see how "easy" that is
       B. (and the most obvious) you are a cake member and you guys dont win anything of note, ever

now that i have successfully established that you are ignorant about competitive play allow me to explain why this clarification is important;  I am of the belief that this game should not be balanced based on what new or relatively inexperienced players find OP.  for instance, when i play in a match with random players i use double caros because of how easy it is for my newer players to use those particular guns successfully.  now would i say that a dub caro pyra is OP? of course not! if i tried to roll that load out i would most likely lose badly. (see sunday rumble #10 i believe it was when the MM crushed me) it is for this reason i believe that looking to the competitive scene where coordinated crews face off is a more accurate testing ground for balance.  and it is in this scene that gat/mort pyras have NOT reigned supreme for quite some time now.

i also want to be clear on one other thing, just because something DOESNT work in game doesnt mean it isnt broken, it may mean that a team may just not know how reading works...
« Last Edit: October 29, 2013, 07:43:39 am by -Mad Maverick- »

Offline Garou

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #43 on: October 29, 2013, 07:24:27 am »
Additionally, given your aversion to anything 'meta' in Cake, you'll forgive me if I don't take your assessment of the skill required to use one seriously. If the topic was incendiary rounds I'd be all ears. In this case, you're talking out of the part you should be sitting on.

Let me put it this way: I don't sew, so I damned sure wouldn't give my opinion on the skill required to crochet. At best I'd be a fool for trying, and at worst I'd just be full of it. Dig?

Offline -Mad Maverick-

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Re: 1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE
« Reply #44 on: October 29, 2013, 07:25:19 am »
that was a tribute to their players, and my hat's off to them.

o and i almost forgot thanks wuffo that was too kind man