1.3.3 GUNS AND GUNNER SKILL BALANCE

[The Djinn]

Because not all gunners are good gunners.  Being able to calculate range from experience and checking ship movement before firing is what makes you a good gunner.  The advantage of being a good gunner is that you're a good gunner.  You shouldn't be forced to become a good gunner just to be effective.  Raising the minimum skill bar isn't beneficial in a game like this where new people are confused enough as is and many who have played for a while still have much to learn.  There is plenty of room for mastery to be worried about raising the skill minimum.

If being a good gunner shouldn't be necessary to make you effective, then we should probably just remove the high skilled long range weapons like the Hades, Lumberjack, and H. Flak.

I'd also suggest that if you're using a shot as a range-finder at 1200+ ranges with the H. Flak you're not using it correctly. At those range you can actually get off most of a reload before the first shot hits, meaning that you should have already fired both before you know whether or not a shot landed.

Additionally, I think more skill is added to the sniping game if gunners only have a single powerful shot that will nearly kill a ship (enabling skilled pilots to dodge incoming shots if they're on the ball) rather than two potential kill shots at 1200m+.

[Kain Phalanx]

No, I'm fine with leaving the high-skill options there.  The problem is the heavy flak doesn't really belong on that list.  It's only recently that's it's been seen as an extreme range only weapon.  Even more puzzling is that people are calling it a niche weapon.  What?  It's singular purpose is to destroy the enemy ship and it's the sole best gun at doing that.  How is that niche?  But that's beside the point.

Of course the first shot isn't intended as a rangefinder, but if you miss, that's what it is.  Firing both shots before the first hits is a good way to miss both shots and my gunning improved when I stopped doing it, since as has been said, even one shot can be lethal.  That was a long time ago though, and the projectile seems slower than ever.  Its ballistics are worse than the light flak, wtf?

Lesmok isn't a single powerful shot, that's Lochnager.  Lesmok makes the shell even faster so no, less dodging.  You're confused.  And it seems I have to state yet again, that both shots don't need to be able nearly kill a ship.

[Captain Smollett]

I rather like HF being a high skilled weapon,

If using a gunner on a HF, I feel most good gunners can hit a high % with charged at around 1100 M and below.  Beyond that Lesmok begins to make a lot of sense and is still a good ammunition for the gun.  Requiring 2 clips to make a 1500 Meter + kill is reasonable in my opinion.

Lesmok used to be a crutch before the change.  Everyone used it as the sole ammunition for the gun because it made it so easy to shoot.  Admittedly the HF is more difficult to use now because of the change, but it also has more damage per shot than it's ever had.  It's now a high skill high reward gun and I find it more fun than ever to use.  It just takes some experience to figure out now.

[Sammy B. T.]

A powerful long range gun should have a high skill level required.

[Kain Phalanx]

As you mentioned, using Lesmok as sole type isn't so great any more with the arming time change.  People still used charged and heat sink when they got closer anyways, now we're just being forced to do it.

If you want high skill, high reward, you can use Lochnager.  Lesmok's purpose is to make long range shooting easier and it doesn't necessarily any more.  Part of being a good gunner in a game like this is loading appropriate ammo in appropriate situations.  It's not like a statless twitch shooter.

I haven't argued that HF shouldn't be a high skill weapon.  I've argued that it should be lower.  Compared to shooting in other games it's already more difficult.

I also resent that we've moved to discussing in such vague terms.  I'm very specifically arguing that I want two shots with Lesmok, and this is just obfuscating.

[Alistair MacBain]

But do make those two shots with lesmok possible you would need a dmg debuff which in reverse would make other guns using lesmok to weak.

[Kain Phalanx]

There are plenty of things that could change where that's not the case, as I've already stated.  The small details are up to the developers to worry about.  A gun having 1 shot instead of 2 is a huge issue.

[Queso]

Remember, balance shouldn't be done to make every option viable at all times. If an ammo type doesn't work on the gun, then it doesn't work. Changing the ammo type or gun stats to make a single combination work throws so many other variables into whack that the whole game could become unbalanced from a single change. No ammo HAS TO work with any particular gun. The flak has been in such a precarious balance situation for so long that changing it when it finally feels right doesn't seem like a good idea in my opinion. However it is just an opinion. That's all we can do in the forums, is state our opinions, and support them with facts and evidence. Making demands about the game gets us no closer to a balanced game.

Regarding balance and skill: The game is designed to be balanced so that it works at a high skill level, and is fun at a low skill level. Surely some strategies and weapon loadouts do not work in both, but that's any game.

[Kain Phalanx]

Lesmok did work with the gun, it was changed so it didn't.  Telling me that changing stuff could be bad as an argument would only by hypocritical.

It doesn't feel right at all to me.  It's long range ammo that doesn't work in a long range gun.  In contrast, it's loved that it works in a flamethrower which always seemed like a glitch to me.

I haven't been convinced to the contrary in the least and I'll forever be bothered by it until it's changed, but I'll shut up about it until somone else who agrees with me chimes in.  I can't imagine how I'm the minority in this opinion.

[Queso]

I believe the choice to make the clip size reduction that large was in fact to prevent the flak form having two shots with it. If you reduced the flak's damage as a result of increasing the clip size with lesmok, the gun would become more dependant on having the ammo type, which is against the ammo and gun design philosophy of the game. Some things that seem like they should combo together well simply can't, because they would become too powerful, or too dependant. In balancing a game with this many complex variables at play, sometimes you have to remove something that feels cool and right, because it just doesn't work. To force lesmok and flak to work together, would require a hugely inordinate amount of work, for what payoff?

[GeoRmr]

I'm "flabbergasted" how you misquoted me.
I said >Most of your flak sniping should be done with charged rounds.

Notice the big >MOST

The ideal ammo to be shooting from the flak is charged -  it has the highest sustainable dps. (I hope I don't need to further explain this point to you.)
If you can't hit a ship with charged rounds (the same bullet speed and arc as neutral rounds) because it's too far/moving too quickly etc. YOU USE LESMOK ~ that's what it's there for.

I hope the following will help clear the air:

1. The reason I feel lesmok should not give you two shots is because it will be too easy to kill things quickly at any range above the arming distance. (the reason it was nerfed in the first place)

2. Sire, Indeed I would advise you bring lesmok. As a gunner I take, lesmok, lochnagar, and charged rounds for the heavy flak. If I were flying a galleon build where an engineer shoots the heavy flak I'd advise them to take charged rounds or lesmok depending on how confident their aim is.

3. lochnagar heavyflak takes off 60% arming time allowing for unexpectedly close range insta-kills.

4. Yes, if you're sniping the general idea is that you sit still. (I don't know what kind of sniping you do, OMG 360` NOSCOPE HAX isn't really a valid tactic in GoI.) If the pilot wants to get his nice shiny 1300m+ kill achievement in a reasonable amount of time, they're gonna have to deal with it, twiddle their thumbs and play with their tamogotchi. (maybe even perhaps possibly get on the other gun or even fix things so your engineers can keep shooting too.)

5. lesmok is "long range" ammo that works with a long range gun, but at mid range, don't use the long range ammo (it's long range enough already), learn to aim the thing and kill with it brutally quickly. It's hard, because it's op when you can do it. ~ simple.

6. Flak spires are still deadly.

I'm very specifically arguing that I want two shots with Lesmok, and this is just obfuscating.

I feel that if you have 2 shots with lesmok it would be too easy to use for the amount of reward.

In best anticipation of your response,
GeoRmr

[Kain Phalanx]

Only because you anticipate my response.

1.  I'll keep repeating my self.  All those variables can be changed.  There are other ways of making Lesmok less potent besides taking 1 shot off of the heavy flak.

4.  You use lesmok in situations that aren't pure sniping.  As a the main gun on the goldfish, it needs to be effective at all times otherwise the ship is as useless as the gun on it.  On a Galleon, they can't control the range well so you need lesmok when the enemy is approaching from a distance, running away, or is hard to hit.

"too easy to use for the amount of reward"  Right now your reward is half the damage of a normal volley for what is practically more difficult than it needs to be.

[Captain Phil]

I remember when lesmok had two shots in it. While I would be alright with the HF having two shots with lesmok (though I could hardly care atm), there are a few other guns I would not want to see with two lesmok shots, like the mercury field gun. Lesmok was hit with the ammo reduction not because of one gun, but because multiple guns where getting an unfair advantage from it. As for heavy flak with lesmok, the key is to timing your shots so they hit when hull is down and try to keep the gun buffed for more damage with the one shot. While is does feel like you are getting cheated for only having one shot for any two shot weapons; Hellhound, H-Flak, and Mercury, it is still very potent in allowing these guns to make that disable at a very long range, get that last shot to take a balloon out on a retreating ship, and kill an enemy ship in two flak volleys before they even get close to you. Sniping builds are already strong if used correctly, and having more shots with lesmok would only increase the potency of that strategy. Then we get people complaining about snipers being meta, again.

[GeoRmr]

Only because you anticipate my response.

1.  I'll keep repeating my self.  All those variables can be changed.  There are other ways of making Lesmok less potent besides taking 1 shot off of the heavy flak.

4.  You use lesmok in situations that aren't pure sniping.  As a the main gun on the goldfish, it needs to be effective at all times otherwise the ship is as useless as the gun on it.  On a Galleon, they can't control the range well so you need lesmok when the enemy is approaching from a distance, running away, or is hard to hit.

"too easy to use for the amount of reward"  Right now your reward is half the damage of a normal volley for what is practically more difficult than it needs to be.

Wait wait wait ~ are you seriously suggesting using a flak on the front of a goldfish?

Also I don't really understand what you're arguing; you're saying lesmok makes the flak harder to shoot?

[GeoRmr]

I remember when lesmok had two shots in it. While I would be alright with the HF having two shots with lesmok (though I could hardly care atm), there are a few other guns I would not want to see with two lesmok shots, like the mercury field gun. Lesmok was hit with the ammo reduction not because of one gun, but because multiple guns where getting an unfair advantage from it. As for heavy flak with lesmok, the key is to timing your shots so they hit when hull is down and try to keep the gun buffed for more damage with the one shot. While is does feel like you are getting cheated for only having one shot for any two shot weapons; Hellhound, H-Flak, and Mercury, it is still very potent in allowing these guns to make that disable at a very long range, get that last shot to take a balloon out on a retreating ship, and kill an enemy ship in two flak volleys before they even get close to you. Sniping builds are already strong if used correctly, and having more shots with lesmok would only increase the potency of that strategy. Then we get people complaining about snipers being meta, again.

IMHO sniping builds are meta currently.