Team Stacking - Match Balance

[Garou]

I say here what I've said in the past regarding this matter.

In my clan we get accused of stacking all the time. Usually when it happens, we've made a lobby specifically so that we can fly together. The whole reason we're in a clan is because we're friends who enjoy flying together. We also happen to be relatively skilled and work well together. Sometimes it starts after the first match, other times it doesn't even go as far as a match; a bunch of new players join up and start crying 'stack'. I'm all for mixing it up and keeping things fair, but sometimes I want to fly with my friends.

I honestly don't know what the solution is, if there is one. We've tried naming lobbies 'Wolfpack practice' or 'High levels only' or 'Please no new players', and it still happens. I've suggested making an optional label for matches that indicate that it's a high level match, but that idea has been met with mixed thoughts. I definitely feel forcibly segregating the community isn't the answer, and even when it's attempted, how many beginners do you see not using the beginner matches, when it's apparent that they should?

Frankly, I've seen this issue get tossed around more than most, so it's obviously on the minds of some of us, but outside of balancing ourselves, what can we do really that won't create other issues? It's just something that we'll have to be aware of and decide at the time if we need to fix it. I think we have a good community and players who enjoy a genuinely competitive match. Nobody -wants- to pub stomp, and I feel the instances where that is intentional are limited at best. Stacked teams are just a thing that happens sometimes in team-based games.

[Thomas]

Once issue I see with that is it's pretty simple to work around. Once they get flagged as stacked, they might just leave and reform in another lobby.

A great team of friends/clannies isn't a bad thing. It's just that whomping on new players leaves those new players with a bad taste in their mouth. Dramatically decreasing their enjoyment of the game, and in some cases causing them to give up on the game. We still don't want to punish them for playing with their friends.


In theory there should be no special system required. In a perfect world these teams would seek each other out, or try to shuffle, change ships, or whatever to try and create fair matches. For the most part, this does not happen. Nor do you very often see players with experience banding together to try and challenge those preformed teams. In some instances, when a valid opponent does appear, these stacked teams will just call it a day. You can conclude that these teams aren't overtly interested in seeking out fair matches. Whether it's because they want to win, they want to farm, or probably it's just too much effort for them to find another organized team in a match with enough slots for them all.



So based on some other feedback, we want a system that:

-Creates fair matches
-Lets us play with our friends
-Has no (or minimal) loopholes to stack teams
-Still has a place for organized teams to get together
-Doesn't discriminate based on rank/skill/experience
-Is simple

[Garou]

So based on some other feedback, we want a system that:

-Creates fair matches
-Lets us play with our friends
-Has no (or minimal) loopholes to stack teams
-Still has a place for organized teams to get together
-Doesn't discriminate based on rank/skill/experience
-Is simple

That's my point, I don't think a system like that can exist. You end up excluding someone, whether it's a clan that just wants to fly together or new players looking for a challenge.

I really feel policing ourselves is the only real solution. I know in our clan, we try to explain to new players what we're doing and that they might want to find another match. They don't always listen and end up being upset by the match anyway. Additionally, we in Wolfpack try to fly against other clans at every opportunity, but sometimes there just isn't another on in enough numbers to fly against.

Sometimes a 'stacked team' is just a group of friends who want to fly together, is my point. I don't feel actual, intentional 'stacking' happens as much as these threads suggest, and I feel that we as a community do a fair job at keeping things as even as we can. That's my 2 cents.

[Piemanlives]

Can I just say compared to other threads I've seen based around this issue, this time we've actually gotten somewhere?

[Squidslinger Gilder]

I really feel policing ourselves is the only real solution. I know in our clan, we try to explain to new players what we're doing and that they might want to find another match. They don't always listen and end up being upset by the match anyway.

Once you've been at this as long as I have, you just load up a rage quitter loadout, pwn the heck out of them and move onto the next match. It isn't worth the time or hassle dealing with those players.

I've given up on explaining things to players that don't show proficiency with a mic or respond via text. Too many people in this game run with sound off and then they bitch about high levels or stacking.

"Well, turn your sound on!"
"But I don't like the sound, I like my music playing full blast!"
"Yeah ok...you powder monkey with a mic or English speaking skills, stick a mine in his face plz."
*BOOM!*
"YOU HIGH LEVEL STACKING CRUMBUTT!! I'M TELLING!!!"
"Gilder hears ya, Gilder don't care" *Activate Block Feature*

[Thomas]

I suppose we're trying to avoid conflict on both ends. Low experience players don't like losing so harshly, and high experience players get annoyed when people complain about them 'team stacking'.

I understand that for some the team stacking isn't intentional. Players are just trying to have fun with the their friends and clanmates. Maybe they are practicing for a tournament. The reason they all stay together in that lobby is because it's just easier that way. Instead of jumping from lobby to lobby looking for one that just happens to have 8 or so slots open on one side (near impossible to find, unless the lobby is just about dead anyways, nullifying the point of looking for it). So the chances of the organized teams actually running into each other for glorious combat is low. They'd have to bump into each other, their leaders would have to set up a private lobby with a password, give that password to the other 15 people and pile in.

And for a few matches it would be fun, but then it gets kind of boring fighting the same people over and over again, so they'd go their separate ways. Once again being in different lobbies and outclassing the majority of their opponents. And the thought of new opponents every round can get a bit exciting. Things don't get as stale and repetitive for them, encouraging them to stay longer.


So really it's not the stacked teams fault anymore than it's the new players fault; because honestly, they can each see the relative experience on each team and hopefully realize the situation.


All in all it's just a symptom of the lobby system we currently have. Which is why I mentioned a matchmaking/queue system being implemented. Keeps things fresh, and fair (if used along with some kind of balancing system).

[Imagine]

Any system which makes people who want to play together as friends punish that is a bad idea.

[NoWuffo]

I really feel policing ourselves is the only real solution. I know in our clan, we try to explain to new players what we're doing and that they might want to find another match. They don't always listen and end up being upset by the match anyway. Additionally, we in Wolfpack try to fly against other clans at every opportunity, but sometimes there just isn't another on in enough numbers to fly against.

These are my views almost verbatim... That being said, if the Wolvies ever want to throw down again, The Cohort is up to the challenge!

[zlater75@hotmail.com]

More friendly non-competitive clanskrims sounds good. Why not even mix the teams a bit and have fun?

I don't see how making the lobby different than it is atm, with some balance or queue system, wouldn't affect the freedom of choice and solidarity of gamers as individuals. What change would NOT take something away of how it is now? Free for all to join any? Supporting new players more by mentioning the beginners matches isn't that doomed. Some do listen. Might be other reasons than the stomping that makes others leave. Afraid of teamwork, socialising or airhips just not their thing. The game takes a bit of devotion.

[Garou]

These are my views almost verbatim... That being said, if the Wolvies ever want to throw down again, The Cohort is up to the challenge!

I'm sure I speak for all of us when I say we're always up for it. You guys are good and make for a fun lobby between matches xD

[Thomas]

As fantastic as it would be for players to police themselves and set up only fair matches, it doesn't happen. There are a number of reasons for this. Firstly we have to point out that it's not always the fault of the 'stacked team'. In many situations, they enter that lobby as a group looking for a challenge from similarly skilled players. But with the large variety of skill ranges, it will often start to fill with people who aren't nearly as experienced and coordinated. Once that happens, another 'stacked' team looking for a match will overlook that particular lobby because there's not enough room for all of them. Chances are they'd be forced to start their own lobby, also hoping for a skilled team to appear and face them, and the problem just multiplies.

Once the teams in the lobby realize that there's a skill gap between them, they can certainly try and correct the situation. This can be done by having one of the ships from the stacked team swap with one of the ships on the other team. We do have the ability to swap ships, you just have to enter the spectate and change places. A swap ship option would only help the problem of people showing up in the middle of the swap and taking their slots. The thing it wouldn't be able to help is people refusing to change places, which can happen and prevent the swap in the first place.

Then there's the likelyhood of the stacked team not wanting to swap. This most likely is not from their desire to win, but their desire to play together. That's why they formed up on the same team in the first place. With all of these blocks preventing an even match, players decide to proceed anyways, which can cause some people to lash out at the end of the match.


After re-raising the issue of stacked teams and the desire for even matches, I've spent more time observing matches in an effort to collect information. Seeing just how many matches are 'stacked', how many that looked stacked but really aren't, the win/loss rate of those matches, and the leave rate of the losing team. Needless to say, I spent a lot of time looking at a lot of matches. In all that time, there was only a single match that tried to balance itself.


So can we police ourselves in an effort to bring out fair matches? Yes. Are we likely to do so? No.


We will need some kind of system in the game to force/encourage balanced matches if they're going to occur with higher regularity. One that still lets us play with our friends of course. It's been done in other games, it shouldn't be impossible to do in this one.

[NoWuffo]

The whole issue of policing ourselves and "stacked teams" in general in my mind is not the fault of the accused stacked team in most scenarios. Most lobbies, even completely fair lobbies where there are balanced teams of equal skill, will eventually go to a stacked scenario. I'm going to use player levels here to pain the picture, even though it doesn't fully describe skill, whatever.

Start with a completely fair lobby, led by a few lvl 10+ crew, with lvl 4-7 core crew and maybe a few good 1-2 players as well. As individuals leave a lobby (to go play another match, play another game, sleep, ect), you inevitably get the level 1-2 new players who will join in, often times very much green, and a lot of times not very cooperative with their shipmates. They tend to weaken one side, and then that team will potentially lose the next match(s). This will discourage the lvl 4-7 base of that team, and they might switch sides or go off to find another lobby where they might have a better chance at winning, potentially finding themselves on the other side of a stacked match. This begets more lvl 1-2 newbies, and before you know it you've got a completely unfair match of stacked players. It's an unfortunate but very redundant scenario I see all the time. If the one side doesn't want to split up because they're all friends or they're trying out a new build combo, all of a sudden they become vilified for stacking teams and making things unfair.

I would totally be behind something where we could fix the match imbalance, but not if it is going to hurt clans or groups of higher level friends. A few Muse guys that I've talked to about this have even agreed that they like the fact that people are grouping up to make more competitive lobbies and matches, they absolutely don't want to limit the possibility of this happening. Anything where it's forcing a clan to separate or swap ships or whatever is basically limiting what groups can do together, and potentially lessening their enjoyment of the game.

Whatever scenario we want to come up with, it shouldn't LIMIT anyone. In order to please some, I fear that you're inevitably going to hurt others. Sure, other games have come up with a good solution, but no other games have THIS much teamwork and cooperation involved, we can't just split teams right down the numbers by level and pretend that this game is going to be anywhere near as enjoyable as it is.

[Thomas]

I don't believe anyone has suggested not allowing friends to fly together, or breaking up clans to force even teams. So I'm not sure why people keep bringing it up. My suggestion is based on the MOBA type games that do matchmaking queues, and... wait for it..... also allow you to group up with friends before entering said matchmaking queue.


-------------------------------
So for example, under this system you would group up with 7 of your friends, filling up two ships. For funsies, lets say one of your friends has a sudden urge to rush off on a long bio break due to questionably cheap mexican food, leaving you with 6 friends.

Step 1:
Form Crew - Invite all your friends to that crew, and enter queue when ready.

Step 2:
Fill up remaining slots. Since your premade crew isn't 100% full, the matchmaking system tosses a compatible person in there. (ie: it won't give you a second captain)

Step 3:
Depending on how the system is created, it will find/create an opposing team of similar skill level (the entire reason I suggested the rank/score system. Since we currently have nothing that quantifies skill)

Step 4:
It places both teams in the pre-match lobby. It is here that you can set up your ships, vote on the map, and finalize your loadouts before the match starts.

Step 5:
Play the match

Step 6:
Post-game lobby. It is at this point you can re-enter the queue or exit and return the main screen.

Step 7:
If you entered the lobby, do whatever. If you re-enter the queue, proceed to Step 2.

---------------------------------

There would have to be more included to make it function well, but it fills just about every desire/need.

[zlater75@hotmail.com]

It's still more limiting than compared to what is.

step 1: There is a party function to form crew.
step 2: Would a program or code define who is a "compatible" person? restrict classes? What if captain of a galleon wants to be engineer? And you want to ahve the freedom to choose yourself what class to be or have?
step 3: to get a random similar "skilled" opposing team? You mean it would search fro similar crews and then put them against eachother? Again the option to choose who to invite or to let anyone join or invite a certain clan or party waiting.. Where would that be?
step 4 - 6: exist. what is different to what already is?

what if people want the choice itself more than a program simulating balance? I mean the community of this game is way more helpful and supportive than many other games. If games are unbalanced have people asked for the other team to balance it? And what about fluctuating skills? some matches can be very different due to map, timezone, host, beer, etc..

Many clans have varied skills. level 1 to max. personally i don't see any reason for any form of skillmeter to the game. Ship swap mentioned would be a direct way to balance when asked without any jump risk just the whole ship swap with other ship. Who knows if it'd work? You can't change human nature with programs. it will remain. people usually find a way sooner or later. But with support it can change even if it's the hard way.

[Commodore Phoenix]

Personally I don't see a problem with the game as far as stacking is concerned. If anybody joins and they see a high level crew they usually leave which leads to an empty lobby so you have people like me who are stuck in an empty lobby because we are high level and you want to encourage this saying if you are to good you cant play anybody else well let me tell you I just spent 30 mins playing a game with a galleon a crew of noobs and an enemy galleon with the same setup lets say a lot of hwacha weren't being used with heavy clip. So instead of encouraging players to fight against a team of good players you say make them all join each other so they can teach them how to play. YAY! FUN! I totally payed to teach other people how to play this game over and over and over and over again because that's the aim of this game, right? teach every one how to play? right? Not really its about creating a team and developing as a team to be the best you can be and how can your team develop if you have to split up all the time to make it fair... The oh so famous quote "life isn't fair" comes into mind here, this game has a great community and I say this all the time but you can't push the CA role on everyone because its what you guys want to do, players like me want to play not teach I'm not a volunteer that's what the CA's are for.

If you want to police the games why don't you just split the community up that'll work. Oh wait it doesn't. This is a game not an elitist group we are all equal. If there is a level 1 and they think they can take on a level 10 let them try I say its an experience they can learn from and will go on to do better from it. Let them teach themselves. Stop trying to make this game a ladder based system just leave it as it is, is it really that bad? are there people leaving by the hundreds as they keep getting pounded on by high players not really, no. I play everyday and I rarely see more than 5 10+ players on during a weekday and any lower than that are usually just messing about in an ordinary game. There is no organised pub stomping you are seeing problems where problems do not exist.