Author Topic: Medium Weapons, Anyone?  (Read 8929 times)

Offline Sprayer

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Re: Medium Weapons, Anyone?
« Reply #30 on: October 23, 2013, 04:36:48 pm »
[...]
Balloon: 173 (Heavy Carronade) vs. 158 (Light Carronade)
Hull: 158 (Heavy Flak) vs 158 (Mortar)
Guns/Engines: 232 (Lumberjack Heavy Mortar) vs 112 (Mercury Field Gun)
Armor: 48 (Heavy Carronade) vs 60 (Gatling)
[...]
DPS with reload? Also, if you actually manage that dps with LJ against engines and guns, hats off to you. That's because the LJ AoE deals no damage at all against those and I'd love to see anybody who can reliably hit guns and engines with it.
[...]
Largely, but not totally. The lumberjack and heavy flak only arm after some distance (like the Field gun), and if they're mounted on a Spire or Galleon, your adversary chooses the range most of the time.
[...]
Field gun has no arming time.
[...]
A Gatling with heavies at short range is a scalpel; I have successfully disarmed all the guns on all types of ship, many times. It is fast, precise, has a large clip and is especially good at busting guns. Engines? I don't know that much, since when a ship's guns are disabled I switch to charged and finish the hull.
[...]
A really slow and rusty scalpel. ~12 shots for light guns and engines, ~14 for medium guns and heavy engines. +3-5 shots to get zeroed in. +3-5 shots bacause unexpected movement of your pilots hand turns off your shots. Congrats, you wasted half your heavy clip for a gun with wich you could have stripped the armor instead.

All medium guns need higher skill but also get you a higher reward, deal with it.

Offline Van Manfred

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Re: Medium Weapons, Anyone?
« Reply #31 on: October 23, 2013, 04:49:57 pm »
See? You dont take the argument of experienced players.

What makes "u" think that?

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The medium guns are mostly sniper weapons. There is nth comparing with that range and dmg. If you ever see what a hflak can do with a unarmored hull u see how good it is.
A lumberjack takes balloons for breakfasts.
Sure u need good gunners on them. Thats why u barely see them. Or at least used to their real potential.

A good hwacha gunner will take out ur whole ship in one volley.
A hcarro will twoshot ur balloon and kill ur hull rly fast if u hit right with it.

Funny, that, the sheer amount of weapons 'n' gunners who casually "one-shots" ships around here. Apart for some early game ambushes, I rarely see any ship being "one-shotted" in a fight... must be because all the 80% accuracy gunners are here instead of on the game. In fact, nearly all the "one-shot" kills I ever saw were on these boards.

Don't think that because I am no achievment farmer I have no experience with the game. That would suspiciously sounds like a challenge, sir.

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But as u will not take our arguments go ahead and do whatever u want.
Or watch some competetive matches and see what good players can do with heavy guns.

They can do the very same thing they do with the light ones - destroy ennemy ships.

Offline The Djinn

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Re: Medium Weapons, Anyone?
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2013, 04:57:19 pm »
DPS with reload? Also, if you actually manage that dps with LJ against engines and guns, hats off to you. That's because the LJ AoE deals no damage at all against those and I'd love to see anybody who can reliably hit guns and engines with it.

That is with reload accounted for, yes. It deals a staggering 600 damage per shot to components. That said...yeah, it's hard to hit non-balloon components.

What makes "u" think that?

Probably from your apparently dismissal of the discussion points of, to name a few, Captain Smollet and Sprayer, an incredibly experienced Captain and Gunner (respectively).
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 05:01:42 pm by The Djinn »

Offline Sprayer

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Re: Medium Weapons, Anyone?
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2013, 05:07:48 pm »
It's 100 damage per shot to guns and engines (50 base, mod is 2) Djinn, 600 if all shots of the clip hit.

@Van Manfred, I don't need to look at your level to know you are inexperienced and don't want to learn at all. Reading your answeres here is enough.

Offline Alistair MacBain

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Re: Medium Weapons, Anyone?
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2013, 05:11:13 pm »
Well i dont think you have seen any competetive match at all. And no it is not about achievment farming. It is about experience and actual skill.
Youre only 4 4 3. So shouldnt be to long i think that u left novice matches. And a pub will never utilize longrange to its fullest.
Pub games are totally different from actual highlvl / competetive games. The thing why ppl barely use med weapons besides the hcarro are their relative high skillminimum to utilize.
Watch some paddling or gents matches and then see what good gunners can do with a medium weapon.
The reason u barely see this in normal games is the fact that not many pubs can time their shot.
Pub is mainly brawl based game. Seen any sniper galleon pilot rly park his galleon getting assisted by his ally? Probably not.


And another part is. We probably have played the game way longer than you. We might know what a gun can rly do and we might also see it doing it in several more situations.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 05:16:50 pm by Alistair MacBain »

Offline Van Manfred

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Re: Medium Weapons, Anyone?
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2013, 05:18:56 pm »

Shots miss occasionally, yes. But 80% accuracy is pretty easy on a Heavy Flak within, say, Gatling range. The more important issue is that medium guns take time to fire off a full clip...and a skilled pilot won't just sit and let you empty an entire clip on his ship if he has any recourse. So we can either assume that each gun is functioning under optimal conditions, or that neither is functioning under optimal conditions, in which case you might only get 50-75% of that light gun's clip actually on target (or actually on the portion of the ship you wish to damage).

In my experience though? Good gunners are reliable at putting heavy gun fire on-target. 80% isn't that far off the mark at moderate range.

A heavy flak at gatling range won't always arm. Maybe, if you've got greased or heatsinks. And, most gunners I know have less than 80% accuracy, meaning some lost shots here and there. A Hwacha is especially un-precise, even with the heavy clip and at short range, there always will be some rockets off the map - furthermore when mounted on a Galleon.

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Yep. And by firing early, aiming for engines, and reversing, you can keep that distance up for quite some time, even on very tight maps like Paritan Rumble.

Why do always assume a dumb opposition? Let's make the crews equals for comparison's sake. In most normal battles, Galleon or Spires only got a few shots a long range, shots that the other ship has a good chance to dodge or soak by the time you reload. When you finished reloading, most opponent will already have chosen their range.

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So while you scalpel away I'll tear into your guns and engines with Heavy Clip on a Hwacha at a range you can't match with damn good accuracy, then disable all your components facing me with Burst at close range.

You do that again. If your gun is castrated by my shatter shots, you can't do what you wrote.

The odds are, the gatling will disable the Hwacha first, except at long range, when it's superfluous, since the gat hasn't the reach, it can't fire anyway. When it can, the fact that it acts as a tracer, has a large clip, reloads in less than 3rd the time the Hwacha does and also has a superior firing angle, makes that it trumps the Hwachas in a disarm duel.

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Also, that Gat tactic is alarmingly ineffective, as even with Charged rounds the Gatling has the second worst DPS against the hull in the game. By a pretty huge margin. Use it to shred armor, reload it, and shred their armor again once it's back up. It's a far more effective use of the Gat then the pitiful 13 DPS that Charged rounds do to the perma-Hull.

Except for the Medium-slot ships and the Squid, all the other ships have at least two overlapping light guns, like I said in my post. I never said that gats alone can do it all - but the fact that they put off the hull make that ship damn fragile to about any other light gun that may overlap it.

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The fact that within a 2-3 second window you can strip a ship of most of its guns + engines is well worth the 14 second reload time. Hwachas sow chaos and give you time to get more advantageous positions...and they do it VERY quickly. You then swing guns to bring other weapons into arc while it reloads. You're severely underestimating the power of the weapon as mid-close range disabler: nothing else really compares at that range.

Like I've wrote, the Hwacha's reload time is long enough that I can repair any weapon that it may have damaged during its course, even from scratch. If the engineer's at the hull, and on the balloon, you just won't kill that ship with a single hwacha. It's impossible, unless your target isn't crewed.

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Beg pardon?

Hwacha DPS to components: 232 + burst to nearby components.
Gatling DPS to components: 77

The Hwacha is the clear winner here.

 :D

Nah, sorry, I contest that. Either your numbers are wrong, or you assume that every missile you fire with the Hwacha will hit the same component at the same time. Won't happen.

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I would hazard a guess you are not up against decent pilots/gunners then, and they probably aren't running Heavy Clip. A well run Hwacha ship can disable your engines or guns from almost double the Gatling's maximum range, and easily have Burst rounds loaded by the time you close the distance, which gives you a firing window of a few seconds before you lose half of your ship's components.

The Hwacha's loading time is long enough for all that damage to be gone, even with an average crew, when it's time to fire it again. And if the Hwacha's got better range, the Gat has more firing angle. And all the other advantages, except as what the Hwacha really is; Enforcing an area of denial.

Offline The Djinn

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Re: Medium Weapons, Anyone?
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2013, 05:20:14 pm »
It's 100 damage per shot to guns and engines (50 base, mod is 2) Djinn, 600 if all shots of the clip hit.

Derp. You're entirely correct. I had an error in that box of my table. Thanks.


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Nah, sorry, I contest that. Either your numbers are wrong, or you assume that every missile you fire with the Hwacha will hit the same component at the same time. Won't happen.

You were correct: I editted my post. The correct number is 118.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 05:21:56 pm by The Djinn »

Offline Van Manfred

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Re: Medium Weapons, Anyone?
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2013, 05:37:57 pm »
Well i dont think you have seen any competetive match at all. And no it is not about achievment farming. It is about experience and actual skill.
Youre only 4 4 3. So shouldnt be to long i think that u left novice matches. And a pub will never utilize longrange to its fullest.
Pub games are totally different from actual highlvl / competetive games. The thing why ppl barely use med weapons besides the hcarro are their relative high skillminimum to utilize.
Watch some paddling or gents matches and then see what good gunners can do with a medium weapon.
The reason u barely see this in normal games is the fact that not many pubs can time their shot.
Pub is mainly brawl based game. Seen any sniper galleon pilot rly park his galleon getting assisted by his ally? Probably not.


And another part is. We probably have played the game way longer than you. We might know what a gun can rly do and we might also see it doing it in several more situations.


I have the game since it is out, and I got "Guns of Icarus" (whitout the "online") before that. I hate achievement farmers because they are often tyrannical, egoistical or just positively nefarious to a good game. I played enough to see that many of these "achievers" are in fact hardly competent folks who just happen to jump in with the right crew. And if you have any experience you'll know it too.

There is no achievement farmer here that I will recognized as more "experienced" than me, unless he gives me flight hours, and many of these numbers that you cannot see on other's profile, and I'll tell you if you are either experienced or an achievement farmer, no offense. It's useless to try and impress me with achievements. Maybe when I started up the game, but not now.

I have played what you described as a "high-level" game, and got tired real quick of being taken for a noob because I don't chase acheivements (they really come naturally in my case). When they do take me on their ship, they often end up adding me to their Friend bank, when I'm not ending up directing the crew over the mike. But even in these game I have never seen as much casual "one-shots" as I saw on these board. The playing level must be much more higher on forums, I gather...

@The Djinn; If I was correct, you are, in return, quite elegant in admitting it. Thank you, sir.

@Sprayer; Yes, looks like I was wrong; The Field Gun has no arming time.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 05:51:50 pm by Van Manfred »

Offline The Djinn

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Re: Medium Weapons, Anyone?
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2013, 05:50:22 pm »
I have the game since it is out, and I got "Guns of Icarus" (whitout the "online") before that. I hate achievement farmers because they are often tyrannical, egoistical or just positively nefarious to a good game. I played enough to see that many of these "achievers" are in fact hardly competent folks who just happen to jump in with the right crew. And if you have any experience you'll know it too.

There is no achievement farmer here that I will recognized as more "experienced" than me, unless he gives me flight hours, and many of these numbers that you cannot see on other's profile, and I'll tell you if you are either experienced or an achievement farmer, no offense. It's useless to try and impress me with achievements. Maybe when I started up the game, but not now.

That's a rather blanket generalization though. I've been known to have my crew take something sub-optimal if they're up for it because I've wanted some silly achievement (like "harpoon 30 ships"), but that doesn't mean I'm bad for the game or that I'm a bad captain: point of fact, we won one of those harpoon matches because I could out-pilot the enemy captains such that our Harpoon/Flamer Mobula was always out of their gun arcs.

TL:DR -- Going for the occasional achievement or even flying a loadout specifically for an achievement doesn't mean you're inexperienced or bad. Being bad and/or inexperienced is the only real indicator of being bad or inexperienced.  :P

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I have played what you described as a "high-level" game, and got tired real quick of being taken for a noob because I don't chase acheivements (they really come naturally in my case). When they do take me on their ship, they often end up adding me to their Friend bank, when I'm not ending up directing the crew over the mike. But even in these game I have never seen as much casual "one-shots" as I saw on these board. The playing level must be much more higher on forums, I gather...

Ramming, Lochnager Flak, Buffed + Charged Flak, and enough rapid Greased Mortars can effectively 1-shot (defined as, say, 5 seconds or less) an enemy ship. I personally have seen this happen numerous times, and done it myself numerous times. Your mileage may, of course, vary.

@The Djinn; If I was correct, you are, in return, quite elegant in admitting it. Thank you, sir.

Any time, my good man. I like to think that while we all badger each other, the GoI community is a decent one. Gentlemen argue with each other all the time, but that doesn't mean we have to act like savages while we're at it.  :)

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Medium Weapons, Anyone?
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2013, 05:58:07 pm »
This is too much theory crafting. 

I recommend you watch the paddling (or gents) in action.  There was an absolutely gorgeous one shot kill in the gents vs paddling cogs season 2 finale which unfortunately is no longer on twitch (not sure if there's another copy of it somewhere).  Recent anvalan conflicts recorded here http://www.youtube.com/user/CommunityeSports also demonstrate well the power of heavy weaponry.

1190 hours of time in GOI over 4275 matches btw

Offline Van Manfred

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Re: Medium Weapons, Anyone?
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2013, 06:03:53 pm »

That's a rather blanket generalization though. I've been known to have my crew take something sub-optimal if they're up for it because I've wanted some silly achievement (like "harpoon 30 ships"), but that doesn't mean I'm bad for the game or that I'm a bad captain: point of fact, we won one of those harpoon matches because I could out-pilot the enemy captains such that our Harpoon/Flamer Mobula was always out of their gun arcs.

Oh, I don't want to generalize, I know that there are those players who decidedly are as good as they appear - and probably even better than me! Bit I don't consider their ranks to be more than a supposition that they are. As I have wrote, show me flight hours and then I'll bow down.

I have done one single game to earn achievements; being a pilot then, I let achievement greed dictate my ship, the guns that were on it and what I should do to earn them (like, firing a gun or repairing for a pilot). Turns out it was the worst game in my career. We got blown out of the skies, barely registering a kill. I personnally did apologies to my teammates of fortunes for the sabotage I did - and that gave me something like 4 achievements. They tasted sour to me.

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Ramming, Lochnager Flak, Buffed + Charged Flak, and enough rapid Greased Mortars can effectively 1-shot (defined as, say, 5 seconds or less) an enemy ship. I personally have seen this happen numerous times, and done it myself numerous times. Your mileage may, of course, vary.

Are thet really one-shots (from a single gun, on a full-health ship) or finishing shots, or multi-fire ambushes?


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Any time, my good man. I like to think that while we all badger each other, the GoI community is a decent one. Gentlemen argue with each other all the time, but that doesn't mean we have to act like savages while we're at it.  :)

Sir, consider yourself saluted.

@Captain Smollett - Okay; You are a vet.  :o
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 06:05:56 pm by Van Manfred »

Offline The Djinn

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Re: Medium Weapons, Anyone?
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2013, 06:10:19 pm »
I have done one single game to earn achievements; being a pilot then, I let achievement greed dictate my ship, the guns that were on it and what I should do to earn them (like, firing a gun or repairing for a pilot). Turns out it was the worst game in my career. We got blown out of the skies, barely registering a kill. I personnally did apologies to my teammates of fortunes for the sabotage I did - and that gave me something like 4 achievements. They tasted sour to me.

Seems likely, yes. Hence why you should always run it by your crew first, and still make the best decisions possible with whatever loadout you have. Never purely go for the achievement.

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Are thet really one-shots (from a single gun, on a full-health ship) or finishing shots, or multi-fire ambushes?

The correct ram can indeed (I believe) one-shot a ship, although usually you have to pin them against a building. For the rest...one-shotting usually refers to 100%-0%ing the enemy's Perma-Hull, rather than bursting them instantly from full armor. I'm confident that no weapon can 100-0 a ship with full armor, but the Lochnager Heavy Flak can indeed 1-shot a ship's perma-hull once the armor is breached (on anything but a Goldfish or Galleon, I believe). I also think the Buffed + Charged Heavy Flak can one-shot the Junker, Spire, and Mobula, but I haven't actually checked my numbers on that one.

Edit: Checked my numbers.

Lochnager Heavy Flak: 1039 damage per shot. Destroys any ship that isn't the Goldfish or Galleon. When buffed, it should one-shot any non-Galleon ship in the game.

Charged Heavy Flak: 600 damage to the hull. Destroys the Junker and Mobula in one shot. When buffed, it should also kill the Pyramidion.

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Sir, consider yourself saluted.

Well thank you very much!

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@Captain Smollett - Okay; You are a vet.  :o

Yes he is. Smollet knows his ways around every role pretty damn well, I'd assume (I don't recall flying with him personally yet).
« Last Edit: October 23, 2013, 06:20:18 pm by The Djinn »

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Medium Weapons, Anyone?
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2013, 06:11:24 pm »
One shot kill into a ship without armor. 

Unfortunately the clip I'd like to show you was particularly great, the gents were focusing my ship and seemingly had the upper hand in the engagement.   They had broken my balloon and armor but we had managed to break one ships armor right as I lost gun arcs.  Just as I was about to be killed, my ally put in a shot across the map and the gent ship evaporated.  The other gent ship lost arc on me and my ally proceeded to kill the said ship at range from the galleon while I was picking myself off of the ground.

Offline Echoez

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Re: Medium Weapons, Anyone?
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2013, 06:34:52 pm »
One shot kill into a ship without armor. 

Unfortunately the clip I'd like to show you was particularly great, the gents were focusing my ship and seemingly had the upper hand in the engagement.   They had broken my balloon and armor but we had managed to break one ships armor right as I lost gun arcs.  Just as I was about to be killed, my ally put in a shot across the map and the gent ship evaporated.  The other gent ship lost arc on me and my ally proceeded to kill the said ship at range from the galleon while I was picking myself off of the ground.

Haha, that was one impressive match to watch for sure, surely a good display of the Flak's power to turn around a situation. Thing is and what I think the OP is trying to get to:

It's not realy about the current Heavy guns being underpowered, it's about the fact that the half of the current Heavy gun choices are focused on sniping, one is a high coordination disabler to get anything out of its tremendous power (Hwacha) and the other is the only brawling Heavy gun, which isn't ALL that massive at it either and can still be easily taken out at range, but it all depents.

AKA, as the title of the thread states, Heavy guns have a distusting lack of variety right now, especially on the mid and close range department, we need more unique Heavy guns like the Hwacha and the Lumberjack and more brawling Heavy guns as well.

Also, to all 'vets' here, the OP is mostly talking about pubs, which is what most of the game revolves around and it's not a lie that most heavy guns are pretty much useless in them if the pilots have a clue, mostly because the gunners might not be top-notch, but hey, that's the true game after all, for the pubs, variety in Heavy guns is even worse than it is for the experienced players, they have too many requirements that a pubbie will probably won't be able to cover (like very good coordination, ally protection, experienced gunnery crew, etc)

Offline Van Manfred

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Re: Medium Weapons, Anyone?
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2013, 06:51:34 pm »
@Echoez; Yeah, that indeed sums it up rather well. Better, in fact, than I did, as I got carried away on interesting side-orders.