Please Make Gunners Useful

[The Djinn]

Yeah, but that makes the guns the gunners territory, just like a gunner won't go around messing with the hull or engines. Well, he can to a limited amount, just like an engineer could use one type of bullet.

Gunners do mess around with hulls and engines though: everyone pulls their own weight in both healing AND firepower, even if that weight isn't as much as the specialist in that area.

Making normal ammo a type removes the ability for Engineers to effectively use any gun that does not benefit from their special ammo, which severely limits loadouts and options for ships. I can't say that's a good thing, even if it does make Gunners a little more important. I'd rather (if we assume Gunners need a buff) give Gunners something extra rather than take away from not only the Engineer's options, but the Captain's viable options with ship loadout.

But why keep the mechanic where the gun reloads when you do not have the same bullets equipped?

For one thing, that makes the Gunner more important. Otherwise two Engineers could each take the most important ammo for a certain gun, and just juggle reloading times to always keep it filled with the most appropriate ammo. A good team on a smaller ship would have no trouble doing this.

[Cid Ferringer]

For one thing, that makes the Gunner more important. Otherwise two Engineers could each take the most important ammo for a certain gun, and just juggle reloading times to always keep it filled with the most appropriate ammo. A good team on a smaller ship would have no trouble doing this.

Except that you can't call someone over everytime you need to reload.. Then you're gonna waste a ton of time..

Making normal ammo a type removes the ability for Engineers to effectively use any gun that does not benefit from their special ammo, which severely limits loadouts and options for ships. I can't say that's a good thing, even if it does make Gunners a little more important. I'd rather (if we assume Gunners need a buff) give Gunners something extra rather than take away from not only the Engineer's options, but the Captain's viable options with ship loadout.

Giving gunners something extra will have the same effect, but with added powercrawl.
If the meta changes and having a gunner makes you kill things more effectively, then loadouts will be limited the same way, since they won't be viable.
I don't see the difference between "Ok, we can't have engineers on these guns now because they are less effective" vs "we must have gunners on these guns no because they are much better"

[The Djinn]

I don't see the difference between "Ok, we can't have engineers on these guns now because they are less effective" vs "we must have gunners on these guns no because they are much better"

The different is the first is "this engineer is actually causing the gun to function not only below peak efficiency, but below normal efficiency" vs. "this engineer is fine on the gun, although a gunner would be much better."

[Cid Ferringer]

They are both relatively the same thing..
"Normal efficiency" is definied by the meta.

[The Djinn]

They are both relatively the same thing..
"Normal efficiency" is definied by the meta.

Not really. The difference here is in player perception. Psychologically, players would rather see someone else do better with interaction A then see themselves actually make interaction A worse.

Basically, it isn't fun to only be able to use a gun when you know that the gun is actually weaker as a result of you using it. Players want to feel useful and, as a result, I'd much rather have the Gunner just be BETTER at gunning than the Engineer. Note that this means the Engineer stays at his current baseline of having normal ammo and a single option -- the Engineer in this situation sometimes isn't playing optimally, yes, but he's also not feeling useless by seeing his choice actively harm his teams firepower.

Small distinction in this discussion...but it makes a large distinction in how the player perceives the class during actual play.

I think you'll find this common in many class-based or option-based games, and the reverse (a player's choice making them actively worse than an unmodified choice) is rather rare except in games specifically designed around that.

[Cid Ferringer]

Yes, but otherwise we'll have powercreep that will make engagements much shorter, due to increased firepower/accuracy/better gunnery..
Currently gunners are experiencing the same feeling of being a liability as you describe, when it comes to the survival of the ship.

With normal ammo the engineers are effectively using 2 types of ammo, that's like the gunner having two engineer slots..

So why do you insist that engineers should be so versatile at shooting?

[The Djinn]

Currently gunners are experiencing the same feeling of being a liability as you describe, when it comes to the survival of the ship.

Not really. They can take the Pipe Wrench, which, while not AS good at repairing or AS good as healing, is a very powerful middle-ground tool in its own right. A gunner with a pipe wrench is actually GOOD at repairing and healing parts...just not AS good an an Engineer because he lacks the flexibility to have the BEST option active.

Meanwhile, an Engineer who is running, say, Lesmok for a specific gun and finds himself stuck on a Gatling adds...literally nothing of value, while having a reduced clip size and rotation rate. Further, since that gun will NOT be loaded with Lesmok, he also has to reload it. That's why normal rounds are important: otherwise our theoretical 1-ammo engineer is punished TWICE. Once for being less efficient, and once for requiring MORE TIME to STILL be less efficient.

So why do you insist that engineers should be so versatile at shooting?

I mean, I'd settle for removing their ammo slot entirely and leaving them with normal around, but that also feels like a poor solution that's un-fun for everyone.

[Cid Ferringer]

An engineer can still take normal ammo, why does he require both lesmok and normal?
If the gunner has to do with the pipewrench then an engineer can make do with normal ammo.

I agree what you're saying about perception.
But that's mostly because engineers are so spoiled with special ammo.

[The Djinn]

An engineer can still take normal ammo, why does he require both lesmok and normal?

He doesn't. The point is that you're stuck with one of two things: All engineers take normal ammo (boring), or ship loadouts MUST be built around either the gunner being on every gun (awkward, since you normally want your gunner in position to fire the most important gun you've got), OR designed so that a single engineer ammo type is optimal on ALL the remaining guns, since if there's a gun the engineer's ammo type DOESN'T work on you don't actually want to have that gun on the ship in the first place (unless the gunner can easily reach it). Both are restrictive to ship loadouts and to player fun, as people often like a variety.

[Cid Ferringer]

I've been looking at the issue from a pure balance perspective, what you're saying about variety and fun is true.
But you're also pointing out how skewed the game is towards engineers.

You're basically saying engineers are so central to loadouts and gunnery that everything goes to hell if their ammo is limited..

[The Djinn]

You're basically saying engineers are so central to loadouts and gunnery that everything goes to hell if their ammo is limited..

I think so, yes. The ability of everyone to carry an ammo type and still use guns that DON'T require that ammo type is what allows a wide variety of guns to be used on a ship, in my opinion.

[Richard LeMoon]

What if the gunners were the only ones that could change ammo types, and whatever ammo they loaded would stay until they changed it? Or it would take a lot longer for a non-gunner to switch ammo types. That would definitely make them an essential member of a crew.

I think the main issue here is not making gunners useful, as they already are, but rather to make them different. Once you are on a gun, there is really no  difference in play other than two more ammo types to choose from.

The only class that has a unique ability is the captain.

[Alistair MacBain]

That change would switch much as most experienced players preload their weapons so they have it loaded even before the fight starts. And for a mortar which is a pretty usual engineer weapon you only need one clip to instagib nearly every unarmored ship.

[Cid Ferringer]

Problem is you don't want the gunners new role to be a gun reloader..
Because the engineers can still fire the weapons while the gunner has to go around reloading..

[Ingenu]

Interesting when playing with my friends we always have at least one gunner, sometimes two.

My understanding of the problem is quite different though, to me each class as an item slot in each area of expertise, and two additional in its own field.
The problem comes to that:
-To control the boat, just click on the helm.
-To use a gun, just click on the gun.
-To repair a piece of equipment, just click on.... *OUCH* no, you can't.

so the simple fix is to allow repair/rebuild by simply clicking on the piece of equipment. In that case your item slot in each field is only ever a bonus, not a requirement as it is for the engineering slot item currently...

(Just to be clear, that would be a slow repair/rebuild, maybe equal to the current in game worst repair and rebuild values.)