Please Make Gunners Useful

[RearAdmiralZill]

Also, what would make 2 gunners on a ship viable? If we can solve that question then we can basically eliminate the problem since 2 gunners + 1 engineer OR 2 engineers + 1 gunner will be welcome.

Like pilots, there just isn't room for two. If you tried to make gunners into a class that you can take two of, you'd end up with a watered down engie anyway.

I think of gunners as pilots for their guns.

[Nidh]

Also, what would make 2 gunners on a ship viable? If we can solve that question then we can basically eliminate the problem since 2 gunners + 1 engineer OR 2 engineers + 1 gunner will be welcome.

Like pilots, there just isn't room for two. If you tried to make gunners into a class that you can take two of, you'd end up with a watered down engie anyway.

Doesn't that mean we have watered down gunners right now?

[Letonator]

Also, what would make 2 gunners on a ship viable? If we can solve that question then we can basically eliminate the problem since 2 gunners + 1 engineer OR 2 engineers + 1 gunner will be welcome.

Like pilots, there just isn't room for two. If you tried to make gunners into a class that you can take two of, you'd end up with a watered down engie anyway.

Doesn't that mean we have watered down gunners right now?

While I don't agree that the gunner is or isn't watered down, nor am I sure what that means, I do agree that this automatic requirement of two engineers on any good crew is a partial pigeon hole, or at least seems like it. Why is the engineer so perfect that we need him so heavily compared to other classes? This sounds really facetious reading it back to myself, but I think these are important questions to ask.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Too watered, thus you get an engineer with a buff hammer claiming to rule the world, lol.

The reason two engies are required is because I don't think there are enough guns on any one boat to warrant the need for 6 ammo types (or a build that would). You get diminishing returns at that point and the repair of a second engie is undoubtedly better than any potential damage a second gunner could add.

[Alistair MacBain]

Well it maybe wasnt the nicest way of telling but thats the point. There is not much difference between a decent and a good gunner when using midrange to closerange weapon. Every Idiot can point that and hit the enemy. Doesnt take much more to know where to aim each gun.
Whats truly a hard thing is aiming a medium gun at a distance of 2000m where everything is much harder.
The only gun thats hard to hit at closer ranges is the minelauncher and a good player can utilize that one pretty well if he can place the mine right in front of the enemy.

Way to many ppl overerstimate what more ammo types can do.
I can go on a gatling as engineer with heavy clip and switch to normal rounds when pretty close and do nearly the same as a gunner. He just has greased rounds for closerange. But what i can bring is a faster rebuild of my gun and an extinguisher.
Same goes for most light guns. Even a hwacha can be utilized good enough by a engineer.
Lets go through guns ...
A heavy carronade, a heavy flak and a lumberjack are the medium guns that can be utilized well by gunners. A hwacha is ok but mostly not the mainweapon so you probably have an engineer doing well enough on it ...
So light guns we have.
A minelauncher is better with a gunner cause he has loch, lesmok and any other closerange ammo which can turn.
A hades is also better in the hands of a gunner cause he has lesmok for higher ranges and can switch to his closerange ammo when the enemy is near.
What we have left for gunners?
Nothing that is awesome just some that are ok.
I can maybe think of a gunner at a banshee cause u get heavy clip and greased so you get a better longrange but as the banshee isnt ur mainweapon cause u just deal permahulldmg and add some firestacks you will mostly have a engineer at that gun.
Mortar? Can finish an unarmored hull even with lesmok in one clip so no gunner needed.
A flak? Due to the decreased spread u dont need heavy anymore so u can go with charged. And it still deals explosive only but it will never instagib a hull within one clip ...
What do we have left?
A flamer which isnt a mainweapon so you wont use a gunner on it.
A artemis which is still quite ok at highranges even without lesmok.
A merc which doesnt need lesmok so u can go charged.
A gatling which i mentioned above ...
Ok you can utilize a gunner at a light carronade thats ok on a squid but there is no other ship thats build around such closequarter fights so you probably wont have a certain setup especially for the carronade on any other ship. But still a squid is so fragile i rather have a engineer on it.
And i hope no one will take flare or harpoon as a argument.

So all in all. Most guns are just not designed for gunners.
And i hope no one will mention flare or harpoon for a gunner ...


Oh and the two gunner thingy ...
The only ship that may profit from this is a galleon which can utilize it for the flak lj combo on the bottom deck but hey you can still have 2 engineers cause you dont hardly need a pilot as squash taught us.

[Nidh]

Great, so we know WHY 2 gunners aren't viable. Now how do you MAKE 2 gunners viable, while still keeping engineers not "watered down."

[Letonator]

Too watered, thus you get an engineer with a buff hammer claiming to rule the world, lol.

The reason two engies are required is because I don't think there are enough guns on any one boat to warrant the need for 6 ammo types (or a build that would). You get diminishing returns at that point and the repair of a second engie is undoubtedly better than any potential damage a second gunner could add.

That's a very good point.

In my personal opinion as someone who's reviewed games as his day job, I'd say the devs need to find a method to balance the math of having two gunners and having two engies with equal diminishing returns compared to each other, if each class played their strengths at equal skill levels. I know that you can't just say that, come up with equations, and implement. It involves player ability, who knows their tools and abilities best, but I think that's what the game should be vs who brought more engineers.

At that point, if we find balance in that singular scenario, every other problem that stems from people claiming gunners suck or engineers are overpowered will instantly solve themselves. Again this is 100% my opinion as a game reviewer and no way based in game experience at this point, but having viewed other game development cycles, it feels like the right direction to move towards.

[shadowsteel]

Wow. Just got ninja'd by 7 posts... well here goes nothing.

I don't think gunners are useless right now. They provide diversity to the weapons on your ship. They help change variables in battle that were previously taking you down.

That being said, there is a certain imbalance, but I think it's actually the engineer that is the problem.

The way the tools are set up is that any class (gunner, engi, pilot) can perform any role (gunning, repairing, flying) with the right tools. The number of tools your class allows, increases your performance at that role (which makes the Spyglass the odd one out and why I think there should be a Gneral tool slot...).

But what it comes down to is, engis and gunners take the Spyglass for the Pilot tool, and most gunners take Pipe Wrench for repair because they're not going to be able to use anything else.

The Engineer still has that versatility of having all of the ammo types be useful for whatever guns they're ship has.

[Cid Ferringer]

Because balloon and hull needs to be kept in best condition at all times.. It's hard to do without two engineers..

The problem is not so much that gunners aren't at all useful..
It's that they can be skipped without dire consequences, and some captains will, which means there won't be as much room for gunners compared to engineers..

Usually one type of ammo is enough for the job.
While you can't say the same about the engineering tools.

[RearAdmiralZill]

Usually one type of ammo is enough for the job.
While you can't say the same about the engineering tools.

Just like how I said 6 ammo gives diminishing returns, 9 tools can as well, thanks to cooldowns.

[Echoez]

Gunners vs Engineer discussion.

[RearAdmiralZill]

NO MAKE IT STOP! D;

[Alistair MacBain]

No you dont get the same diminishing return from 9 tools you get from 6 ammo types.
9 tools are way better cause you dont have to run around and ext fires or help rebuild
you can rather switch to tankmode with 3 spanners on the hull or sth similiar.

[RearAdmiralZill]

And then lose the ability to shoot back, and eventually die because you cannot out-repair death.

[Imagine]

No you dont get the same diminishing return from 9 tools you get from 6 ammo types.
9 tools are way better cause you dont have to run around and ext fires or help rebuild
you can rather switch to tankmode with 3 spanners on the hull or sth similiar.

Which takes one tool from each person only, in situations which do not occur as frequently as ammo switching would.