Carronades 1.3.2

[RearAdmiralZill]

The Heavy Carronade is still OP despite its debuffs.

AND

normal carronade.

Relax relax relax.

Since I see this blooming into nice and meaningful discussion, let it begin.

[HamsterIV]

I tried hard to find a single ship counter to Blenderfish/Blendersquid attack, the best I could come up with was triple artimis Junker with a gat mortar side. 3x Artemis can shut a blenderfish down before it gets in range and is useful for assisting a teammate from long range. The real counter is intership team work, but you can't always count on the other captain to do such a thing.

[Gambrill]

Flak Spire with  Merc front and artemis right. Turns you into a long range disabler + kill ship. only downside is you are a spire and quite squishy

[awkm]

I will say that targeting individual components is still quite difficult for most players.  We have ideas to make this a little more meaningful and will definitely come into play for Co-Op mode.

Yes, teamwork is the ideal solution but has HamsterIV points out.... it can be a high barrier... which is unfortunate because our game really requires that.  It's an uphill battle.

And thanks for opening this topic.

[RearAdmiralZill]

And thanks for opening this topic.

Certainly. I'm quite curious as to what people think is making these guns OP though, including you awkm. Range increase + spread reduction? I can see it going back to production range but leaving the spread, as heavy is still viable but not required, which I think we found to be an issue.

[Nidh]

The Heavy Carronade can 2 shot a balloon from a relatively far distance, not long range, but A LOT farther than most people think, especially with heavy clip (assuming the first hit is not repaired).

The Heavy Carronade can lock down 2 ships at the same time, and has the potential to kill them while doing so.

Going below a Heavy Carronade is not a viable strategy in countering it as that's where it wants you to be in the first place, also most balloons are far enough above the ship that being "below" the Carronade from the helm's view is often misleading.

You can counter it to a degree, but anyone using it to it's full potential is not fun to fly against.

Popping balloons and zoning is the Carronade's purpose, but the armor striping and kill potential are what make Carronades OP.

HOWEVER, thinking of the Goldfish particularly, there are no other 100% reliable heavy weapons for brawling right now. The Hwacha is not very reliable at it's job, and the Flak and Lumberjack are long range support weapons. I feel like the Carronade should have its armor striping power lessened, but at the same time, if you want to fly a kill-oriented Goldfish, the Heavy Carronade is the only reliable option.

Honestly I don't know what to think, but those are some observations from my time flying a blenderfish.

[awkm]

What Nidh said.

[Serenum]

Carronades are high-risk high-reward. And they require skill.
They are fine.

Please don't fix things that are not broken and instead simply work as intended.

To be honest I'm worried that this thread has even popped out. The meta is absolutely dominated by a single weapon combo that apparently is working as intended when it kills a ship in 1 clip but the carronade is OP? It's annoying to be on the wrong side of a carronade, that's for sure, but it's hardly a "make a single mistake, lose the game" kind of weapon. Carronading someone to death is a long and difficult process and it leaves plenty of time for your ally to rush in and help.
FFS that thing can't even aim down!
 

[Nidh]

I'm sorry, I can't tell if you're joking or not, but the Heavy Carronade is THE easiest to use gun in the game. They require no skill other than looking at your target. The Heavy Carronade is a very safe pick, you take out the balloon or guns on the other ship and they can't shoot back and are out of the fight for the moment. It's not risky, because with heavy clip the range can be relatively very far.

I don't like the power of the Gat-Mortar combo either, never said I did, but that's not what this thread is about. Killing is not difficult with the Carronade if you're using it to its full potential.

[RearAdmiralZill]

The Heavy Carronade can 2 shot a balloon from a relatively far distance, not long range, but A LOT farther than most people think, especially with heavy clip (assuming the first hit is not repaired).

So that kinda ties into what I said with the increase in range (albeit small one) plus the reduced spread so more hits. Fair enough.

The Heavy Carronade can lock down 2 ships at the same time, and has the potential to kill them while doing so.

So can many other ships (not all admittedly) if put into the prime situations. I don't think this is the gun's fault.

Going below a Heavy Carronade is not a viable strategy in countering it as that's where it wants you to be in the first place, also most balloons are far enough above the ship that being "below" the Carronade from the helm's view is often misleading.

So then naturally, you'll want to stay above. This makes it harder for them to aim at your balloon too, making your hull a bit of a shield. That plays into the hull armor getting taken out too by these guys though, which it was never bad at. I think the gatling just overshadowed its ability to do so, so it wasn't too noticeable.

You can counter it to a degree, but anyone using it to it's full potential is not fun to fly against.

Flying against anyone in anything that is built to kill you while being used to its full potential can be rough. Again, I don't think you can fully blame the gun.

Popping balloons and zoning is the Carronade's purpose, but the armor striping and kill potential are what make Carronades OP.

That's better. Flechette damage in general has always been decent at stripping hull armor. It was always the final bare hull it couldn't really get through. While being slower than piercing guns, it added the utility of also popping balloons, so it was a clear tradeoff. Range was also a factor. With the recent changes to merc and gat, I think now these are on a more "equal" hull armor stripping level, which then I can see the perspective of it stripping armor too fast.

The kill potential I think is over-exaggerated but that's just my experiences. I've had a blender take me all the way down to the floor, only to kill him while im on the ground. It takes awhile to kill with a lone blender, as it should be.

HOWEVER, thinking of the Goldfish particularly, there are no other 100% reliable heavy weapons for brawling right now. The Hwacha is not very reliable at it's job, and the Flak and Lumberjack are long range support weapons. I feel like the Carronade should have its armor striping power lessened, but at the same time, if you want to fly a kill-oriented Goldfish, the Heavy Carronade is the only reliable option.

That's pretty much all opinion except the flak fish. No one seems to like Hwacha's for....some unknown reason. But that's not what this thread is for.

I think production (or even less than) range would go a long way, since the decreased spread lets us think of using lesmok. I don't know how much armor stripping that shatter added, but the carronade already stripped it pretty well, so maybe scale that back to get the desired result.

[HamsterIV]

The skill and risk of the carronade is dependent on the pilot. An expert pilot with a semi competent crew can make the Carronade unstoppable. It makes this less of a team game and more of a "watch this rockstar pilot dominate a server." The gunners don't have to be experts in accounting for all the variables that effect a bullets path with a close range hit scan weapon like the carronade, and the engineers don't have to work as hard when the ship is not taking hits from a balloon locked opponent.

The crew will have to earn their keep if the pilot messes up, but there are some pilots out here who never mess up. I don't usually fly Carronade ships because I feel it decreases the fun of the game. The enemy crew isn't having fun because all they are doing is desperation repairs, and my crew isn't having as much fun because there is almost no skill to their actions.

Allowing your enemy to get a few licks in before you blow them out of the air prevents rage quits. It also gives your crew better stories to tell. Not "I flew with **** and we were untouchable," but "I saved the ship by getting the hull up right before what would have been a killing blow landed," or "I landed a next to impossible shot even the captain was impressed."

[Serenum]

I'm sorry, I can't tell if you're joking or not, but the Heavy Carronade is THE easiest to use gun in the game. They require no skill other than looking at your target. The Heavy Carronade is a very safe pick, you take out the balloon or guns on the other ship and they can't shoot back and are out of the fight for the moment. It's not risky, because with heavy clip the range can be relatively very far.

I don't like the power of the Gat-Mortar combo either, never said I did, but that's not what this thread is about. Killing is not difficult with the Carronade if you're using it to its full potential.

I'll say this again, you silly person, carronading requires skill.
Not from the gunner, but from the pilot. It's a weapon that has short range and makes you rely on ambush tactics and fast manouvering. And it's only weapon that can be countered by a TOOL. More importantly, some people think that losing the balloon means you have lost the engines. You can stil outmanouver your opponent or escape, you know. Try that sometimes. Carronading gives the opponent time to react.
The truth is, most people panic when their ship starts to fall.

At this point why don't we cry foul when a Manticore shot from the back takes out ALL your engines and leave you sitting there unable to turn and fire on the enemy? This game is full of weapons that when used under optimal conditions are hard to counter without the help of your team mates.
Carronade  shouldn't be nerfed. It already has several restrictions, it's fine as it is and I simply oppose any further changes.
If the devs want to make destroying the baloon an effective strategy then carronades are fine as they are. If they want to remove said strategy from the game because it upsets some people (which I'd love to call by another name, but I'm just too kind) then go ahead but you are just ruining your own game and giving in to the pressure.

I really have nothing more to say. The arguments presented against the carronade are narrow and flawed, full of fallacies that shouldn't even be worth countering and in the end I'm sure it all comes down to the fact that being killed by a carronade is not swift and painless like being gat-mortar'ed, it's long and painful and frustrating. But it's definitly not fix worthy, in my opinion.

Edit: also, what Zill said, perhaps better than me.

[Nidh]

When I think kill potential, I factor in grinding against the terrain, which can be kill quite fast for some ships. I see your points though Zill, and the Carronade does seem to come out on the balanced side of things. But when I'm Carronading down an enemy ship and take out their balloon I very rarely see them get out of that locked down state. I do that with the hwacha as well, but I don't expect them to die under the hwacha. When I get the upper hand with the carronade I usually come out unscathed and with a kill, which is my reason for thinking the carronade might be a little too powerful. From the enemies perspective, there doesn't seem to be a lot of opportunity for counter-play once the balloon is taken out. Coming out with a kill on the carronader is the exception rather than the rule in my experience.

@Serenum My reasons for thinking the carronade is OP are not from being a crybaby about getting killed by it. I fly Goldfish primarily and Blenderfish is one of my most used loadouts. I think the Carronade is slightly overpowered because when I use it I feel bad for the guy on the other end.

[awkm]

Also what HamsterIV said.

[Captain Smollett]

The skill and risk of the carronade is dependent on the pilot. An expert pilot with a semi competent crew can make the Carronade unstoppable. It makes this less of a team game and more of a "watch this rockstar pilot dominate a server." The gunners don't have to be experts in accounting for all the variables that effect a bullets path with a close range hit scan weapon like the carronade, and the engineers don't have to work as hard when the ship is not taking hits from a balloon locked opponent.

The crew will have to earn their keep if the pilot messes up, but there are some pilots out here who never mess up. I don't usually fly Carronade ships because I feel it decreases the fun of the game. The enemy crew isn't having fun because all they are doing is desperation repairs, and my crew isn't having as much fun because there is almost no skill to their actions.

Allowing your enemy to get a few licks in before you blow them out of the air prevents rage quits. It also gives your crew better stories to tell. Not "I flew with **** and we were untouchable," but "I saved the ship by getting the hull up right before what would have been a killing blow landed," or "I landed a next to impossible shot even the captain was impressed."

I think one of the biggest reasons that the carronade is such a highly debated topic is exactly this.  In high skill games, the blenderfish loses a lot of it's desirability as excellent teams can often nullify it's usefulness through a variety of tactics, loadouts and strategies.

However in a normal pub match, the blender offers a terrific amount of reward for a small amount of skill on the part of both the pilot and crew of the ship.