Author Topic: A strafing ship?  (Read 3850 times)

Offline treseritops

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A strafing ship?
« on: August 20, 2013, 10:47:36 pm »
Hey I posted this in gameplay initially but I guess the discussion is better suited here.

I'm not too attached to any specific layout or any particular balancing but I think a good starting point is two small guns on front and that is it.

You can charge a pyra, galleon, squid, or mobula and strafe as you fly forward to be sure you're passing on the weak side of the enemy. Then turn as you pass to pull a maneuver similar to spinning on a deskchair rolling across a room.

I also would suggest the hull being stronger than a squid, and speed slower than a squid as well. 

Eukari suggested making one of the sides a shield/heavily armored side. You could use your maneuverability to get in between an enemy and an ally perhaps.

It would need usage of the arrow keys and a,s,w,d but I think that would be part of the cost/benefit.

Offline awkm

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Re: A strafing ship?
« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2013, 03:44:11 pm »
A strafing ship is a major departure from our current ship movement model.  I won't say it won't happen, but it's highly unlikely as we'll have to rethink how everything works including what WASD keys do when you're on a ship.

Interesting idea, though.

Offline Riggatto

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Re: A strafing ship?
« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2013, 06:17:03 pm »
You wouldn't have to really change much, just make the main engine push you sideways instead of forward, then you still have forward facing guns and pilot. Now, if you were thinking of going both forward and sideways, I don't know how that would work either

Offline Eukari

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Re: A strafing ship?
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2013, 11:59:58 pm »
You wouldn't have to really change much, just make the main engine push you sideways instead of forward, then you still have forward facing guns and pilot. Now, if you were thinking of going both forward and sideways, I don't know how that would work either
Wouldn't that...just be a Junker with everyone looking to the left?

Offline QKO

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Re: A strafing ship?
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2013, 03:41:47 am »
Maybe it's an idea to have a ship where the guns are mounted diagonally rather than a strafing ship.

As demonstrated here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wmJQtbw9K8

Offline Pickle

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Re: A strafing ship?
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2013, 06:31:04 am »
When did the default definition of "strafing" become "moving sideways"?  You can strafe in a straight line using the side mounts on any 'ship, some have more side mounts than others, some are faster and better suited for this tactic from others - it's really only applicable to a very fast ship attacking a slow ship (Squid vs. Galleon).

Drifting/sliding in an airship has inherent problems, the shape of the balloon and the empennage is designed to weathercock the 'ship.  This is essential for moving through a fluid medium (such as air) because if you could slip sideways too easily it would be next-to impossible to steer or make any forward movement except with the prevailing wind direction.  This is why sailing craft use a keel or weatherboard, and why small powered surface ships find it easier to hold the weather in heavy seas with a sail rigged from the mizzen mast.

Offline treseritops

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Re: A strafing ship?
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2013, 10:35:14 am »
When did the default definition of "strafing" become "moving sideways"?  You can strafe in a straight line using the side mounts on any 'ship, some have more side mounts than others, some are faster and better suited for this tactic from others - it's really only applicable to a very fast ship attacking a slow ship (Squid vs. Galleon).

Drifting/sliding in an airship has inherent problems, the shape of the balloon and the empennage is designed to weathercock the 'ship.  This is essential for moving through a fluid medium (such as air) because if you could slip sideways too easily it would be next-to impossible to steer or make any forward movement except with the prevailing wind direction.  This is why sailing craft use a keel or weatherboard, and why small powered surface ships find it easier to hold the weather in heavy seas with a sail rigged from the mizzen mast.

I would point more towards Muse's response on realism for this. I realize if you built a real airship and then built it to have strafing capabilities it would slide and be impossible to steer, but you can't fix an entire ship with a rubber mallet either.

And in regards to maneuverability only applying to slow vs. fast ship encounters I think that's false in more difficult matches. Positioning your ship is everything in matches, especially 3v3. If you have to take your strong side off the enemy to move your ship because you're suddenly in between 2 of the enemy ships you've lost a lot of ground.

Offline Rainer Zu Fall

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Re: A strafing ship?
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2013, 03:37:49 am »
Awkm, I think I might have an idea I could show you on this topic. My drawing skills aren't the best, so I just stilized it. The idea is, that this ship would move sideways since the helm is turned around 90° to one side, positioned on a plateau a bit higher than the weapons. If the weapons would only be on one side, as shown below, this could be a fast moving but hardly ever turning ship with 3 light guns on one side.
Idea is that you could ram with the spear (?) in the front whilst shooting on another enemy. If there are only enemies on your front though, you had to choose whether you want to ram or to turn slowly. 3 sides would be vulnerable.
To the steering technique: it will be used just like a normal ship. R to accelerate, but you accelerate to the side. A and D to turn, the pilot just has to think if he wants to turn away from the enemy or towards him. Nothing has to be changed on the engine that is currently being used.

So it's kinda like a Junker but with a twist ("twist"). Just take a look at the images below.

From the top.
From the side.

EDIT: I missed something. You could place the balloon repair spot top of the helm, on a bridge between those two balloons. Makes it a bit harder to repair.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2013, 03:49:41 am by RainerZuFall »

Offline Kyren

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Re: A strafing ship?
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2013, 10:00:41 am »
I'm really really fond of the idea. I wouldn't dare flying after a close inspection in practice mode, but I could see this working out and being a lot of fun :P Still, with 3 vulnerable sides it'd have to either be a squishy sniping platform - which I wouldn't think unusual - or strong like a Junker. In any case, I'd love to see this developed further! We'd likely have to lock it for Beginner's Games, because it'd lead to a hell of confusion, but other than that, it'd be fun ;)

Offline Rainer Zu Fall

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Re: A strafing ship?
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2013, 02:36:21 pm »
Thought of a mediocre to slow moving (top speed) ship with mediocre to high maneuverability and not that much hull. IF you should like the idea of sideways movement.
Something like that:




Offline Eukari

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Re: A strafing ship?
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2013, 03:27:17 pm »
I like it, though I'm a little leery of the "all guns facing one way" thing; it makes it seem too much like a sideways Mobula. What if the third gun faced the opposite way? A single light gun isn't going to do a lot of damage, but it would make the slow turning speed a little more palatable.

Offline Rainer Zu Fall

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Re: A strafing ship?
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2013, 03:33:06 pm »
Take a look at the second design, the gun is pointing diagonally.

Offline Eukari

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Re: A strafing ship?
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2013, 04:07:05 pm »
Take a look at the second design, the gun is pointing diagonally.

Right, but I think my point still stands- the Mobula already fills the "all the guns point the same way" niche. I like your idea for a fast, slow-turning ship that specializes in gunning on the go, but I think having every weapon face one way will be far too restricting. Every fight would involve you circle-strafing the enemy in a counter-clockwise direction; there would be no other tactic you could take, except with a sniper build that doesn't require much movement. The Mobula works because all the guns face forward, a natural direction to move.

This ship seems to be a blend of the Galleon's broadsides with the Squid's fast movement, which is great! What I mean was, to move the forward-left facing gun to face forward-right. You still have a blindspot behind and to the rear-right, but you're not quite so helpless. If you have to peel off an attack or something, or an enemy pops up in an unexpected area you can still offer some kind of resistance. Again, it also separates itself so that it's not just "The Mobula, but everything faces left!" (I'm not saying that's what you're saying, that's just what my guess for how it would turn out)

Designing new ships is tough- you have to make them unique enough so that they're not treading the same ground as existing ones, but also not so niche that they're only good for one thing. I can see this ship being good at a couple of different things- a fast-moving, hard hitting support ship (with a Hwacha/Light Carronade on the left, you could zoom in, pop their balloon and wreck their guns and then fly off while your teammate makes the kill), a finisher (ally breaks their hull, you zoom in and cap them off) or a long-range support (floating just out of the danger zone, circling around and picking off targets).

Offline Rainer Zu Fall

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Re: A strafing ship?
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2013, 04:16:47 pm »
What about that then? I can see a problem with the captain looking behind though.
You have 3 weak sides, agreed. But you can escape whilst still shooting at the enemy before he gets on any side, since you can (different from the mobula) fly sideways.
On the second layout I posted you could even shoot them if they would be passing you on the right side (front) of the ship.


Offline Kyren

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Re: A strafing ship?
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2013, 04:24:49 pm »
Your latest change makes it feel much more balanced, with the light gun pointing "backwards". The 3 blind sides always bugged me somewhat and made me worry about the ship being too defenseless, but this counters it somewhat. It'll still be somewhat easy to catch unawares, especially with the captain's blind spots, but now it'll be able to respond to an attack faster.

I'm somehow always imagining Rainers blueprint here with Lord Funpants concept art: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1785.msg38095.html#msg38095