Suggestion: Better crew reactions/interactions in combat

[Derrick Hayden]

Hi there,

I'm new to the game and forum, so please forgive me if anything mentioned here was already discussed. I just want to share a few suggestion that might one day make it into the game and, in my opinion, make it even more exciting.

I really enjoy the game, but one thing has been sticking out like a sore thumb whenever I'm in a intense battle, fires all over, chaos on the deck as the ship is out of control. First off the lack of a damage model for the ship is somewhat annoying, because looking at a ship with almost 0 hp you see no indication of that, but that might be a harder thing to implement then i imagine it to be or maybe its intentional for balancing issuies. The second and more important thing that stands out is that the crew is never affected by the rockets/flack/bullets landing at their feet and they just keep running at full speed not even flinching. So my suggestions would be to improve the reactions/interactions of the crew to match the danger they face, like:
-making certain weapons/ammo/abilities kill, injure or push the crew off the ship (with reasonable respawn times)
-making crew "brace for impact" when ramming ships/hitting terrain , as in they have to press a key/key combination as fast as possible or risk falling off/dyeing , maybe even have them hang on for dear life until a teammate pulls them up
-basically having the player take action when something violent happens to the ship, something that requires quick action/quick reflexes so as not to incur a penalty like becoming stunned for a few seconds.

In short the crew/the players needs to feel more alive, like a true sailor trying to survive/hang on to a flying ship that is getting bombarded while also doing his/her job.

I'm sure these things would take a lot of work to implement so i hope i haven't insulted anyone by suggesting this. I do however want this game to keep evolving and I'm sure that most people would agree that in muliplayer games one of the most important things to have is diversity.

Keep up the good work.
Cheers.

[Imagine]

Sooooo... you want to add quick-time events added to the game?

Also, as a note, there is visible damage to stuff like hulls, balloons, as well as guns other components giving off smoke when damaged/destroyed.

And, lastly, making weapons to injure/kill players would be soundly not fun and is actually pretty much the same as asking for boarding to happen. It's something that sounds a lot better in theory than would be in practice.

[HamsterIV]

There are subtle changes to the ship model as it takes damage. The most obvious are the metal bits around the nose:

The game code limits the artist from changing any geometry on the walkable areas of the ship for when it takes damage.

As for crew members getting hurt/killed/stunned. It has been brought up before, but I believe it is counter to the "feel" of the game. The Damage scroll show <ship name> Killed <ship name> making the combat in GOIO less personal. The ability to single out individuals on the enemy ship for direct fire would make the game a little more mean spirited. Not to mention the balancing concerns of sniper weaponry like the merc taking out the captain, and lets face it everyone's first instinct would be to shoot at the helm.

[Derrick Hayden]

There are subtle changes to the ship model as it takes damage. The most obvious are the metal bits around the nose:

The game code limits the artist from changing any geometry on the walkable areas of the ship for when it takes damage.

As for crew members getting hurt/killed/stunned. It has been brought up before, but I believe it is counter to the "feel" of the game. The Damage scroll show <ship name> Killed <ship name> making the combat in GOIO less personal. The ability to single out individuals on the enemy ship for direct fire would make the game a little more mean spirited. Not to mention the balancing concerns of sniper weaponry like the merc taking out the captain, and lets face it everyone's first instinct would be to shoot at the helm.

I didn't want to go into to much detail to make the post to long but what you said there at the end about targeting individuals can be overcome by having certain abilities or like i said some kind of quick time events (which are not as bad as most people make them out to be) that counter weapons that fire at the crew. The best example i can think of right now is the "take cover" mechanic in Assassins Creed 3's ship combat, so when the pilot/captain sees that a ship is firing at him he needs to act accordingly + still fly(tho i understand if some people might find that a bit to daunting). You can maybe go so far as having like a "medic" class that heals/protects/buffs your crew in the same way as the Eng does with the ship, and have him carry abilities that protect the crew in more meaningful ways.

[Derrick Hayden]

Sooooo... you want to add quick-time events added to the game?

Also, as a note, there is visible damage to stuff like hulls, balloons, as well as guns other components giving off smoke when damaged/destroyed.

And, lastly, making weapons to injure/kill players would be soundly not fun and is actually pretty much the same as asking for boarding to happen. It's something that sounds a lot better in theory than would be in practice.

(you used both add and added in that sentence )
Please don't make it sound like quicktime events are the work of the devil, they are not that bad as long as they are properly implemented and not overused/abused.
And yes i did see the smoke/fire on individual components , but what i meant is the ship itself seems to be always in one piece even if it should be falling apart. Also this is, like i said, a minor gripe.

Lastly the part of the injure/kill was just to add a touch of actual danger to it all. I just feel that having the crew not care/not feel at all that the ship just got rammed by another ship at full speed is kinda "immersion breaking" (for lack of a better expression).
I know it's easier said then done but its not impossible.

[Piemanlives]

The thing about being able to harm an enemy crew is as stated above, "Like asking for boarding." It just would mesh well with the current gameplay, nor would it be very enjoyable. While sure someone might find it enjoyable but it would mostly be a nuisance for players, because:

Injuring crew is more a matter of realism rather then gameplay, sure it could it work but that is an entirely new block of code they would need to write. Not only that but this isn't played on a crew vs crew basis, this is about airships squaring off against one another in a manner that best suits the game, IE: Airships vs Airships, it seems like something that would be fun only for a little while but would then become a hindrance in actual gameplay, because then you're winning, not by skill or strategy but by making it so the other guy can not fight back for X amount of time because he needs to respawn.

As for breaking ships apart piece by piece:

The matter of ships breaking apart has already been discussed in a less serious manner. If pieces are going to be falling everywhere they would need to add enhanced physics, it would also break the game in more ways then one. Firstly if all your guns were knocked off the ship you would be able to do nothing, effectively disabled unless you died, secondly it could block off engineering items, having no way to repair something is not fun, being completely disabled and able to do nothing is not fun, sure that last one is doable in the state the game is now but at least then you're able to do something about it. Thirdly, if these things where not physics based how would you do it, scripted pieces falling off certain areas? That's no fun either, because then they would be memorized by players "Oh this part is going to be destroyed at X amount of health. Gotta remember that." If they are physics based they'd have to make the models destructible, that in its self is a lot more work then it's worth in my opinion.

[Imagine]

The real issue with crew injury or whatever is if it's included in the game, it would suddenly become a game about something completely different than crewing airships with others, something which Muse has repeatedly said they will not do

[Pickle]

Having crew members take physical damage would change the game dynamic and would shift its ethical dynamic.  I like that it's not an "I'm killing X" game.  If I wanted a FPS I wouldn't be playing GOIO.  See the boarding threads for more discussion of this.

The damage indications are subtle but very visible.  If you can't see them, you're not paying attention.

[Derrick Hayden]

The thing about being able to harm an enemy crew is as stated above, "Like asking for boarding." It just would mesh well with the current gameplay, nor would it be very enjoyable. While sure someone might find it enjoyable but it would mostly be a nuisance for players, because:

Injuring crew is more a matter of realism rather then gameplay, sure it could it work but that is an entirely new block of code they would need to write. Not only that but this isn't played on a crew vs crew basis, this is about airships squaring off against one another in a manner that best suits the game, IE: Airships vs Airships, it seems like something that would be fun only for a little while but would then become a hindrance in actual gameplay, because then you're winning, not by skill or strategy but by making it so the other guy can not fight back for X amount of time because he needs to respawn.

As for breaking ships apart piece by piece:

The matter of ships breaking apart has already been discussed in a less serious manner. If pieces are going to be falling everywhere they would need to add enhanced physics, it would also break the game in more ways then one. Firstly if all your guns were knocked off the ship you would be able to do nothing, effectively disabled unless you died, secondly it could block off engineering items, having no way to repair something is not fun, being completely disabled and able to do nothing is not fun, sure that last one is doable in the state the game is now but at least then you're able to do something about it. Thirdly, if these things where not physics based how would you do it, scripted pieces falling off certain areas? That's no fun either, because then they would be memorized by players "Oh this part is going to be destroyed at X amount of health. Gotta remember that." If they are physics based they'd have to make the models destructible, that in its self is a lot more work then it's worth in my opinion.

Well ok, i understand what you guys are saying, crew taking damage would change the games perspective in a way the devs and most players don't want because you want the focus on the ship vs ship battle. But don't ignore the other part of my suggestions , that of making the crew interaction with one another and with the ship more "realistic" if you will. I still believe that something other then just turning the wheel, hammering away on repair or shooting guns should be introduced into the gameplay so it doesn't become to stale after a while.

About the damage models and physics based stuff, i agree that a small team like muse would struggle to make that work but the truth of the matter remains that if you want the game to be super popular and successful you will need that sort of "eye candy" stuff added, no matter how much work it takes. not only for the visual themselves but also to make the game more exciting and give it that feeling that you really are in a battle/war. I agree that work should be put first and foremost on balancing the gameplay and making it fun, but having nice visual effects(aka clear indications that something spectacular happened)  is somewhat necessary for any modern game, and i think it would be a bad idea to ignore it.

[Nidh]

I love to see pretty visuals and I would love to see more destruction on ships and other visual candy, though the idea is a good idea it's not something that I would expect anytime soon with Adventure Mode in the works, and I think I'd rather see an amazing Adventure Mode than a "pretty cool" Adventure Mode in exchange for a prettier skirmish mode.

I think it might be cool if there wasn't killing of enemy crew, but rather something that would make them feel more "in the action". Maybe more screen shake, and a ringing noise making it hard, but not impossible to hear (maybe an underwater-like muffling).

[Calico Jack]

Hey I so want violent deck pitching when you get rammed

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZNPkyXJ8KA
@6:03

[awkm]

We won't have crew take damge.

This may be a little tangential but we are working on an in-game communication system similar to radio commands in traditional FPS (but better and easier and faster to use).  It will help crews work better especially if they don't have voice OR do not speak your language (the main reason why we're doing this).

On top of that, new gunner and engineer actions are being introduced to make sure when you're out-of-combat everyone still has something to do.  This will also bolster the amount of communication and interaction between players while adding very small features.

More on this later.

[Captain Smollett]

On top of that, new gunner and engineer actions are being introduced to make sure when you're out-of-combat everyone still has something to do.  This will also bolster the amount of communication and interaction between players while adding very small features.

awkm you're such a tease

an in game communication system has long been a feature request so I'm sure many players are looking forward to this.

[Derrick Hayden]

We won't have crew take damge.

This may be a little tangential but we are working on an in-game communication system similar to radio commands in traditional FPS (but better and easier and faster to use).  It will help crews work better especially if they don't have voice OR do not speak your language (the main reason why we're doing this).

On top of that, new gunner and engineer actions are being introduced to make sure when you're out-of-combat everyone still has something to do.  This will also bolster the amount of communication and interaction between players while adding very small features.

More on this later.

Very nice to hear that! As you can tell by my post i do believe that its important to make the crew as involved at what they are doing and what they are experiencing as in the ship combat itself.

Also the "fps communication" is something i wanted to suggest but i thought it would be to much to ask, so its a nice bonus.

Thank you for the reply, keep up the good work!

[Kharthynogus]

This may be a little tangential but we are working on an in-game communication system similar to radio commands in traditional FPS (but better and easier and faster to use).  It will help crews work better especially if they don't have voice OR do not speak your language (the main reason why we're doing this).

So we'll have commands that make our in-game characters say phrases and stuff? That's pretty awesome!

Could you give us a list of some of the commands that you'll be including?