Author Topic: Pyra being op?  (Read 42432 times)

Offline Serenum

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Re: Pyra being op?
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2013, 11:28:37 am »
Yes but the difference is that you play to win, we play to have fun.
Its clear to me that you don't care if something is OP as long as you, personally, have a way around it.
That's not a constructive behaviour, that's thinking you are the center of the world.

The pyramidion is OP exactly because its too easy to use. It requires more effort to defeat it then it requires effort to win with it. It doesn't matter if I, you, or anyone else can defeat a Pyramidion blindfolded. Therefore it is NOT balanced.
Do you understand this simple concept?

If what I'm saying is considered trolling, go ahead. Ban me. I don't care.
I'm sick of seeing the vocal minority win.

Offline Imagine

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Re: Pyra being op?
« Reply #46 on: August 14, 2013, 11:34:06 am »
Yes but the difference is that you play to win, we play to have fun.
Its clear to me that you don't care if something is OP as long as you, personally, have a way around it.
That's not a constructive behaviour, that's thinking you are the center of the world.

The pyramidion is OP exactly because its too easy to use. It requires more effort to defeat it then it requires effort to win with it. It doesn't matter if I, you, or anyone else can defeat a Pyramidion blindfolded. Therefore it is NOT balanced.
Do you understand this simple concept?

If what I'm saying is considered trolling, go ahead. Ban me. I don't care.
I'm sick of seeing the vocal minority win.
Except that it's not.

Look, we can go around in circles all you want, you think it's OP, the rest of us regardless of team status think that, eh, while it's pretty good, it certainly has it's weaknesses. It's not that a few of us somehow have a magical trick to beating a pyra that we feel proud of, it's that if you take like 30 seconds to think about how to approach one, it doesn't actually become a problem.

But whatever, martyr yourself all you want. This thread should probably be locked.

PS: Oh, btw, the sheer assumption that somehow I don't play this game to have fun and that somehow all I, or anyone else in this thread care about is winning is completely ridiculous.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2013, 11:36:33 am by Imagine »

Offline Zenark

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Re: Pyra being op?
« Reply #47 on: August 14, 2013, 11:38:56 am »
From a topic the same as this one :
The Pyramidion is not 'easy' to pilot, but, in my opinion, is the easiest to crew and maintain. Only one engineer is needed to keep the hull and engines running, and they're so close together, it's not a terribly hard job. The other two crew members both just focus on gunning; one of them having to keep the balloon in check. The gunners don't have to account for ship movement to throw off their shots since the guns are on the front.

The Pyra is the only ship where one engineer can repair all three engines in less than three seconds (minus the Galleon when you jump on the ledge). Low levels can better operate on a Pyramidion instead of, say, a Squid or Mobula.

Easy to gun, easy to repair, easy to stay on target, very fast, high armor and hull, small balloon, ramming ability... The Pyramidion really only has one weakness, and that's it's turning and vertical movement which can be overcome with pilot tools.

TL;DR: Pyramidion is the easiest ship.

Offline Pickle

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Re: Pyra being op?
« Reply #48 on: August 14, 2013, 11:43:41 am »
The Pyra is like the Mercury.  One is fine, two start to cause problems.  In a 1v1 against any other class the balance will come down to pilot skill and loadout and not ship selection.  But put Pyras in a pack of two or three and the ability to advance (or retreat) whilst keeping two light weapons per Pyra on the target whilst simultaneously shielding all three engines becomes dominating.  The ability to fight at full capacity whilst charging or withdrawing is what hurts.

Compared to what it was before the physics patch that corrected mass inconsistences, the Pyra now is barge-like in it's poor manoeuvrability.   It's biggest advantage, beyond the forward-firing twin mounts, is the location of the balloon and the engines.   With the balloon on the forward upper deck that allows an engineer to fix the balloon and man the forward port weapon mount.  With the engines shielded behind the mass of the hull and the ability to stage a fighting retreat as well as a charge the lower deck engineer has it comparatively easy as long as the Pilot is able to dominate the engagement or when the Pyra pack has superiority of numbers.  If the balloon was on the lower or rear quarter deck, or if the engines were more exposed from the front, engineering would be a far tougher proposition.  In a 1v1 these advantages are lessened as the opponent has a greater degree of freedom to maneuverer - particularly in the closing phase.

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Pyra being op?
« Reply #49 on: August 14, 2013, 11:53:50 am »
Just as ship balancing should not be based on the experiences of the highest level of play, neither should it based on the lowest level of play.

All else being equal, low skill, Pyra OP
All else being equal, medium skill, Pyra beatable half the time (balanced)
All else being equal, high skill, Pyra quite beatable.

I have pointed out many ways which a Junker can beat a Pyra (despite the logic being allegedly flawed) or at the least many advantages they have over the Pyra in a fight.


Offline Echoez

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Re: Pyra being op?
« Reply #50 on: August 14, 2013, 03:13:54 pm »
Communication and teamwork beat Pyras. They beat everything.

Ambushing them is also a valid tactic, abuse their slow turning.

 Lumberjacks are amazing against Pyras as well, they are massive targets and a hit on the balloon will ensure the armor gets damaged as well.
 Heavy Flak Spires with a Merc are also amazing at taking down incoming Pyras very easily. Galleons can tank them, Junkers outgun them, Goldfishes can outmanuver them hard and have a handy selection of weapons to make their life a living hell.
 Focusing a Pyra is amazingly easy as well, it has armor hitboxes EVERYWHERE.

Aka, Pyramidions are an easy ship, yet there's a lot of things that beat them easily.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Pyra being op?
« Reply #51 on: August 14, 2013, 03:14:17 pm »
I actually think bringing two pyras in a 2v2 is a terrible ship comp.  Now you have two ships that can be killed quickly and can't turn easily, so if you get a positional advantage it's almost a guaranteed 2 kills.

The fact that you almost never see 2 pyras in a 2v2 competitive match I think helps back my point.

2 pyras in a 3v3 can be good but 3 in a 3v3.  Again that's just silly. 

So, what I'm saying is, that I don't think pyra stacking is as good as merc stacking used to be. 


Offline Pickle

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Re: Pyra being op?
« Reply #52 on: August 14, 2013, 05:31:53 pm »
The fact that you almost never see 2 pyras in a 2v2 competitive match I think helps back my point.

It's an irrelevant point, in my opinion.  Competitive matches are between experienced players with practiced communications.  As such competitive play is the least relevant aspect of the game.  It's a tiny fraction of the number of games played by an insignificantly small proportion of players.  PUGs are what most people play, and intra-team communications are hit or miss.

Offline Imagine

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Re: Pyra being op?
« Reply #53 on: August 14, 2013, 05:44:24 pm »
The fact that you almost never see 2 pyras in a 2v2 competitive match I think helps back my point.

It's an irrelevant point, in my opinion.  Competitive matches are between experienced players with practiced communications.  As such competitive play is the least relevant aspect of the game.  It's a tiny fraction of the number of games played by an insignificantly small proportion of players.  PUGs are what most people play, and intra-team communications are hit or miss.

Double pyra with no communication is just as bad as any other two ships with no communication.

Offline Surette

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Re: Pyra being op?
« Reply #54 on: August 14, 2013, 06:56:47 pm »
Yes but the difference is that you play to win, we play to have fun.
Its clear to me that you don't care if something is OP as long as you, personally, have a way around it.
That's not a constructive behaviour, that's thinking you are the center of the world.
This is just false. Sure, we play to win because generally the idea of a competition is to win, but we sure have a hell of a lot of fun playing competitively. Otherwise we wouldn't do it. And it's not like I personally have a way around fighting pyramidions... there are plenty of very obvious drawbacks that we've all taken the time to explain to you. It's not OP just because you feel like ignoring those. Likewise, it's not constructive behavior to tell me that all competitive teams except for you only play to win rather than for fun, and then have the nerve to say that we think we're the center of the world.

The pyramidion is OP exactly because its too easy to use. It requires more effort to defeat it then it requires effort to win with it. It doesn't matter if I, you, or anyone else can defeat a Pyramidion blindfolded. Therefore it is NOT balanced.
Do you understand this simple concept?

If what I'm saying is considered trolling, go ahead. Ban me. I don't care.
I'm sick of seeing the vocal minority win.
No, I'm afraid I don't understand the concept that just because something's easy to use means it's overpowered. It's easy in the sense that it has two front guns, but as we've explained many times, there are a lot of drawbacks that come along with those front guns. I fundamentally disagree that it requires more effort to defeat it than the effort it takes to win with it. As long as you don't engage it head on (because then you're playing into the pyramidion's advantage), they're extremely easy to dispose of.

I also don't understand why you're playing the victim—call it the "vocal minority" if you wish, but you seem to just be ignoring all of the counterarguments people are presenting in lieu of proclaiming that competitive players are self-centered.

Offline Calico Jack

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Re: Pyra being op?
« Reply #55 on: August 14, 2013, 07:40:09 pm »
Yes but the difference is that you play to win, we play to have fun.
Its clear to me that you don't care if something is OP as long as you, personally, have a way around it.
That's not a constructive behaviour, that's thinking you are the center of the world.
This is just false. Sure, we play to win because generally the idea of a competition is to win, but we sure have a hell of a lot of fun playing competitively. Otherwise we wouldn't do it. And it's not like I personally have a way around fighting pyramidions... there are plenty of very obvious drawbacks that we've all taken the time to explain to you. It's not OP just because you feel like ignoring those. Likewise, it's not constructive behavior to tell me that all competitive teams except for you only play to win rather than for fun, and then have the nerve to say that we think we're the center of the world.



guys thread to hold this discussion here, let these good people go about their business.

https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2054.0.html

Offline Piemanlives

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Re: Pyra being op?
« Reply #56 on: August 15, 2013, 05:41:09 am »

I have pointed out many ways which a Junker can beat a Pyra (despite the logic being allegedly flawed) or at the least many advantages they have over the Pyra in a fight.



A junker is just a much more versatile ship compared to the pyra. A pyra is made more for starting engagements or charging into one then it is in a straight out brawl. With a junker I just sit to the left and back of a pyra and pound away at it. As probably stated previously it's more a case on how you use a vessel then the vessel it's self.

Offline Parkourwalrus

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Re: Pyra being op?
« Reply #57 on: August 18, 2013, 01:21:47 pm »
As someone who couldn't fly a pyra to save my life, they are really weak to squids, so with my banshee-flamer combo I can usually outmaneuver them constantly. And, just saying, it is sliiiiiiiightly op with it's blindspot coverable mostly with tar.

Offline Eukari

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Re: Pyra being op?
« Reply #58 on: August 18, 2013, 04:35:49 pm »
The problem with a conversation like this is that, ultimately, it's all relative. One person's overpowered is another's easy mark. And all evidence is circumstantial and anecdotal; if I think Pyra's are easy prey, I'm unlikely to be convinced by someone else's argument. (and the other way 'round)

My circumstantial, anecdotal evidence is that the Pyra's popularity is because it's easy to understand. (note: not necessarily use, or use well) It's basically a big triangle you point at the enemy until it's dead. As a pilot, you're right up in front and can see where you're going (and thus what to point at); as a gunner, you can easily shoot at things right in front of you (which is great, since most rookie pilots don't always know about firing arcs yet); and as an engineer, four out of five major components are in easy reach (it's easy to figure out a path to follow when doing repairs). It's also great at ramming, which, to a rookie pilot who's always flying right at the enemy, will probably happen all the time. The ship is tough enough to take some punishment, and with a good engineer can stay flying for a long time.

It's not hard to see why a lot of newer pilots (and even experience ones) pick the Pyra in such great numbers. Yes, it's got its weaknesses — just like every other ship. But, as someone has already said, the vast majority of the game is played out in PuG matches by people who haven't flow together before. Do you want to spend 10 minutes explaining your Squid's fancy Minefield/Mercury/Flare strategy, or do you want to make things easier on your all-level one crew (and yourself) by taking the simple option?

The upshot of all this is that any kind of extra strength from the Pyra is unlikely to be fixed by a few damage tweaks or reducing some armor — what makes the ship attractive and 'easy' is baked into the very design. It's a matter of tactics, not numbers. Short of radically redesigning the entire layout of the ship (and thus destroying what makes it unique), any 'solution' is going to have to come from how people respond to the ship. If enough people learn how to counter the ship, the meta will shift and people will focus on a new 'overpowered' meta.

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: Pyra being op?
« Reply #59 on: August 18, 2013, 04:42:57 pm »
Quote
The upshot of all this is that any kind of extra strength from the Pyra is unlikely to be fixed by a few damage tweaks or reducing some armor — what makes the ship attractive and 'easy' is baked into the very design. It's a matter of tactics, not numbers. Short of radically redesigning the entire layout of the ship (and thus destroying what makes it unique), any 'solution' is going to have to come from how people respond to the ship.

Absolutely nailed it. Salute.