Author Topic: GUNS & GUNNER SKILLS Balance Discussion v1.3.1  (Read 80076 times)

Offline awkm

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Re: GUNS & GUNNER SKILLS Balance Discussion v1.3.1
« Reply #60 on: August 20, 2013, 05:10:24 pm »
Furthermore, ignite is only one part of the equation.  There's also how many charges it applies.

Currently, I don't expose how many charges things apply.

I will in the future though :)

Offline Letus

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Re: GUNS & GUNNER SKILLS Balance Discussion v1.3.1
« Reply #61 on: August 20, 2013, 05:25:04 pm »
Letus, you're forgetting that the flamer fires waaay more rounds per second than the gat, and it hits multiple components at once. It's a far better choice for lighting fires.

Hey, might as well ask what others may ask...even if it is redundant...to get all facts!

But yes, I think we got enough, thanks Awkm!

Offline QKO

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Re: GUNS & GUNNER SKILLS Balance Discussion v1.3.1
« Reply #62 on: August 20, 2013, 06:10:56 pm »
We don't offer any built in recording solutions.

Final answer regarding the Galleon having too little hull health: if your armor is down to allow someone to pump an entire clip of anything into you then what were your engineers doing, what were your teammates doing, and where were you in combat?  There are a lot of factors that can ensure the Galleon's survival as well as many factors that can bring it to its knees, just like any other ship.  This is the first time that any kind of Galleon balance has been brought up in recent times and there is only one voice saying that Galleon is underpowered.

Please move all Galleon related discussion out of this thread or at least into the Ships thread.

GUNS

GUNNER SKILLS
I wasn't referring to the Galleon being underpowered, I was referring to the Galleon because it has the most HP and can still die to 1 clip of greased mortar, making it OP. It is the gun that applies the most explosive damage over the shortest period of time over almost any chaingun target. And it's not a small margin, with the greased rounds the margin becomes excessively large. That was the point I've tried to make on several occasions. It destroys ships that are supposedly tanks and have a really hard time avoiding the greased mortar's range. That is the issue I've been trying to present here.

Offline awkm

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Re: GUNS & GUNNER SKILLS Balance Discussion v1.3.1
« Reply #63 on: August 20, 2013, 06:16:21 pm »
There are ways to move out of arc and prevent arc from being gotten on you.

If you are in arc, yes greased mortar will just utterly destroy you.

Again:

- What were you engineers doing?  Why is your armor down.  The Galleon has a TON of armor.  This is why it's a tank.
- What were your teammates doing?  Why haven't they distracted or broken up the focus fire?
- Where were you in combat?  Why did you not take evasive action?

There are a lot of things at work here.  Under very specific circumstances, yes a lot of things will seem OP.

Offline Calico Jack

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Re: GUNS & GUNNER SKILLS Balance Discussion v1.3.1
« Reply #64 on: August 20, 2013, 06:24:21 pm »
Flamethrower works with Burst rounds.


Burst is one of my favourites for the flamer.

Offline QKO

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Re: GUNS & GUNNER SKILLS Balance Discussion v1.3.1
« Reply #65 on: August 20, 2013, 06:42:02 pm »
There are ways to move out of arc and prevent arc from being gotten on you.

If you are in arc, yes greased mortar will just utterly destroy you.

Again:

- What were you engineers doing?  Why is your armor down.  The Galleon has a TON of armor.  This is why it's a tank.
- What were your teammates doing?  Why haven't they distracted or broken up the focus fire?
- Where were you in combat?  Why did you not take evasive action?

There are a lot of things at work here.  Under very specific circumstances, yes a lot of things will seem OP.
They are not my crew, I inform my crew every time that when hull armor is down, we are going to die instantly. Why? Because everyone and their mother has a mortar on his ship; it's firing pattern is even more consistent than the flak. I've seen other people's crew's ships die at a blink of an eye just because the hull armor went down and I started firing rounds. It is just too easy. There isn't even a guessing game involved, hull armor down -> ship dead, which unlike the flak is guaranteed.

Furthermore, it doesn't matter whether they were repairing or not, that chaingun will eventually take down the armor and it will take them a considerable amount of time to rebuild it. Now, when considering lesmok, it would be easy for them to fix the armor in time and let the armor take most of the explosive damage. But I seriously doubt that anyone fends off a greased burst; no matter how hard they try. That is head on damage.

You recommend evading the damage, and I'm pretty sure everyone here would love too. But short of moonshining out of range(and breaking my most likely damage engines) I don't see any ways of avoiding the firing arc of a mortar. Maybe Hydrogen could work. But regardless, it's still unlikely that a ship like pyramidion can be shaken by a Galleon. The Galleon in all its glory can fight, put up a manly fight, but evasion isn't exactly its thing.

Offline awkm

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Re: GUNS & GUNNER SKILLS Balance Discussion v1.3.1
« Reply #66 on: August 20, 2013, 06:44:31 pm »
Mortar will be receiving some changes in a hot fix among other weapons.

Until other people can back up your claims, the Galleon is not changing.

Offline Serenum

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Re: GUNS & GUNNER SKILLS Balance Discussion v1.3.1
« Reply #67 on: August 21, 2013, 07:51:23 am »
I'm backing up the claim of QKO, mortar is absolutely capable of killing a Galleon in one clip (what kind of ammo are used to accomplish this I don't know):
In fact, since the armor of the Galleon takes forever to rebuild I'd say that it's the most vulnerable ship to mortar spam strategy.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: GUNS & GUNNER SKILLS Balance Discussion v1.3.1
« Reply #68 on: August 21, 2013, 09:49:49 am »
Then that implies an issue with the mortar, which awkm has already said is getting changes in the coming hotfix. So....yea?

Offline awkm

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Re: GUNS & GUNNER SKILLS Balance Discussion v1.3.1
« Reply #69 on: August 21, 2013, 10:30:01 am »
It's always been a fact, since the beginning, that the mortar could destroy any no armor ship with 1 clip.  What that indicates is a failure of positioning and teamwork.

The mortar can STILL kill any no armor ship with one clip.

The Galleon is not a ship you charge into battle with.  There are other ships that are more capable of doing that.

Offline Wundsalz

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Re: GUNS & GUNNER SKILLS Balance Discussion v1.3.1
« Reply #70 on: August 21, 2013, 03:00:22 pm »
I didn't read those numerous threads regarding weapon changes of the last patch. Still I want to word my 2 cents:

1. I don't like the lesmok change. Frankly I don't even know what your intention for the change has been (nerfing the mercury?). You've significantly nerfed an underused gun (heavy flak) and limited the ammos use for weapons where it was a balanced secondary pick (eg for the carronade) while further turning the mortar (which has been over used int 1.3.0 already) into a universial short - long range hull killer by makeing longe range shots even easier than they have been before.
With the current meta lesmok rounds are the 1st choice pick for alot of weapons - simply to allow hiting targets at ranges the guns weren't designed for (mortars and flamers in particular).
If I were to balance that ammo, I'd probably reduce their range extension to 50%, roll back their ammo reduction to the 1.3.0 value and decrease the damage dealt by it to 80-90% of the std. ammo. That way it'd still be a valid pick for alot weapons, due to the unique feature of range extension while coming along with significant drawbacks for all weapons (dmg reduction) without rendering the ammo useless for 2-shot weapons.

2. if you want to stick to your lesmok changes, the heavy flak needs a buff.

3. I want to see less mortars.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 03:02:42 pm by Wundsalz »

Offline awkm

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Re: GUNS & GUNNER SKILLS Balance Discussion v1.3.1
« Reply #71 on: August 21, 2013, 03:05:52 pm »
@wundsalz

Already in the works :)

Offline Kharthynogus

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Re: GUNS & GUNNER SKILLS Balance Discussion v1.3.1
« Reply #72 on: August 21, 2013, 05:16:05 pm »
I'm curious what you have planned :)

I'd like to see the flak cannons becoming medium-long range support weapons. A spotting ally can get in close and take down the armor, allowing the support ship to use its flack cannons to hammer away at the base hull health (not armor). Make the arming time high enough that the weapon is almost useless at close to short range, which is where mortars would be dominant.

Offline Serenum

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Re: GUNS & GUNNER SKILLS Balance Discussion v1.3.1
« Reply #73 on: August 21, 2013, 07:22:48 pm »
It's always been a fact, since the beginning, that the mortar could destroy any no armor ship with 1 clip.  What that indicates is a failure of positioning and teamwork.

The mortar can STILL kill any no armor ship with one clip.

The Galleon is not a ship you charge into battle with.  There are other ships that are more capable of doing that.

I haven't said anything about charging into battle with a Galleon.
But what's the point in having a tanky ship that can't tank the single most used combo in the entire game?

Meh. Whatevs.

Offline Letus

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Re: GUNS & GUNNER SKILLS Balance Discussion v1.3.1
« Reply #74 on: August 21, 2013, 08:26:26 pm »
It's always been a fact, since the beginning, that the mortar could destroy any no armor ship with 1 clip.  What that indicates is a failure of positioning and teamwork.

The mortar can STILL kill any no armor ship with one clip.

The Galleon is not a ship you charge into battle with.  There are other ships that are more capable of doing that.

I haven't said anything about charging into battle with a Galleon.
But what's the point in having a tanky ship that can't tank the single most used combo in the entire game?

Meh. Whatevs.

Survived many brawls against the most used combo in a galleon many times...it's a matter of what you're doing to what your teammate is doing...see a Pyramidion coming at me...gonna point my hwatcha side at him and make him utterly useless, forcing my deck engie to stay on the hull.

In which I will now go on topic...
Heavy Clip fix makes the Hwatcha's long-range capabilities...well...a bit weak...in my opinion
Perhaps...if the Hwatcha had it's old AoE back...I never really had a problem with it then...as all I did when I saw a hwatcha burst fly at me in a straight line was chute vent...

Maybe just a bit bigger of an AoE to make a hwatcha something you don't want to charge into...but that might take a little tweaking...'cause you shouldn't be able to fully disable a ship when all missiles hit one spot...