Author Topic: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?  (Read 11240 times)

Offline Skrimskraw

  • Member
  • Salutes: 160
    • [GwTh]
    • 21 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2013, 06:40:48 am »
rugerfred apologized to pbg afterwards, just so you know

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

  • Member
  • Salutes: 287
    • [TBB]
    • 31 
    • 34
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2013, 07:11:33 am »
But if you just dismiss people instantly, you could miss out on teaching gold nuggets that will one day grow into strong community members.

Want to know the difference between a gold nugget and a bad player? The gold nugget player listens, responds, and asks questions. I just recruited an entire crew the other day. All of them new players with less than a week of play time. Some even on their first day. All because they did these simple things.

So yeah, guy goes berserk at him that isn't really warranted, but he's clearly joined as a 2nd gunner on a Goldfish. Instead of stating right away it is his first time he just highlights it in his vid as like lol why so serious?! That does not scream a first time player to me. That screams a player that doesn't care and is borderline trolling. I have no patience or mercy for trolls. So cry me a river, I'm not going to put up with it.

Offline Gryphos

  • Community Ambassador
  • Salutes: 57
    • 15 
    • 18
    • 26 
    • View Profile
Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?
« Reply #17 on: August 10, 2013, 07:26:25 am »
I think that, bottom line:

Rugerfred went way overboard with the level of verbal abuse thrown at PBG and should have approached the situation in a much more friendly and accepting way, realising that PBG was probably inexperienced. The non-stop screaming and insulting is inexcusable.

But... PBG should have also made sure to make it perfectly clear that he was inexperienced so as to attract a little more sympathy. And, if he didn't know exactly how to communicate, he should have looked it up in the options menu beforehand, seeing as communication is key in any multiplayer game.

It does go both ways, you need to make an effort to learn if you want to be taught.

Offline WhiteWeasel

  • Member
  • Salutes: 2
    • 13 
    • 10
    • 11 
    • View Profile
Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?
« Reply #18 on: August 10, 2013, 08:54:08 am »
Ok, PBG was a bit slow to start (If he wasn't new to the game how would he have known a 2nd gunner is bad?), however verbal abuse like that can't possibly be less worse. Albeit annoyed, I usually brush it off. But to put it simply compared to Team fortress or Starcraft our player base is really small. Upside people know eachother better, downside trolls have a larger impact by damaging an already small player retention.

That's why I'm a bit more vocal about these kinds of people here then mentioned above.

Offline MasX

  • Member
  • Salutes: 26
    • [Gent]
    • 8
    • 11 
    • View Profile
Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?
« Reply #19 on: August 10, 2013, 12:10:11 pm »
that goldfish pilot reminds me of me in the early days ...im better now.  when u help  train someone  they seems to stick around you and u might even gain a powerful ally in the future.

Offline Gryphos

  • Community Ambassador
  • Salutes: 57
    • 15 
    • 18
    • 26 
    • View Profile
Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?
« Reply #20 on: August 10, 2013, 04:26:59 pm »
however verbal abuse like that can't possibly be less worse.

Of course, I'm not saying it is and I absolutely despise the way that guy acted way more than the actions of PBG, I'm just saying that the situation could have been avoided or at least pacified by action on PBG's part.

Offline QKO

  • Member
  • Salutes: 5
    • [TCD]
    • 5
    • View Profile
Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2013, 05:46:02 pm »
If you guys actually paid some attention, the gunner explained in the comments of that vid why he went off on him. It isn't just him, there's a lot of people who have their games ruined because someone just can't be bothered to listen. It happened to me today, it happened yesterday and the day before and... the day before. And it goes on. PBG was probably more about testing the community and tbh, I have had a good laugh at the gunner's response.

Now there's lvl1-3 games where newer players could learn at their own pace. Do they use this? No. Why? Because they either 'don't need to' or because the lvl1-3 games are filled with retards(by the definition of the word). I've had on several occasions had low level crew on my ship that are joining higher level games for just this reason. What we really want to do is make sure that those that 'don't need to' stay in low level games and those that wish to learn can have a proper opportunity to learn at their own pace. Maybe we can use the commendation system for this? If low levels enter higher level games and don't get enough commendations early on, they get sent to the beginner pool. Players so far have been very liberal with commendations, so when players manage not to get one, that is kind of a red flag.

Also, I'm pretty sure there's plenty that agree with me when I say that we need something against players that immediately ready up and tell us to stfu if we advise them differently. Because we are spending 2-5 minutes getting our crew in line and they are leaving mid game because they are losing. We look into a certain humbleness of newer players and we work with that to create knowledge, experience and confidence. And just like me, the majority of this community simply cannot stand arrogance.

Offline QKO

  • Member
  • Salutes: 5
    • [TCD]
    • 5
    • View Profile
Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2013, 06:01:53 pm »
Ok, PBG was a bit slow to start (If he wasn't new to the game how would he have known a 2nd gunner is bad?), however verbal abuse like that can't possibly be less worse. Albeit annoyed, I usually brush it off. But to put it simply compared to Team fortress or Starcraft our player base is really small. Upside people know eachother better, downside trolls have a larger impact by damaging an already small player retention.

That's why I'm a bit more vocal about these kinds of people here then mentioned above.
Those kind of people don't exist. Think about this for a second: how can you beat other people if you're not open to their playstyles? You can't analyze your opponent if you don't respect him. I have learned this the hard way already. What you got there is just a scrub that won't even compete on the levels a real player can. If you look at top level competitors in any game, you'll see them looking around like "I gotta be careful with that guy, and that guy, and he has some things that are interesting" etc. They look, they look around a LOT and they learn from it.

Also, the flipside of these hardcore gamers is that they in fact do enjoy a game on a lot more levels than a casual player does. Their heads are ticking "What happens if I do this? What happens if I do that? Can I make this work?"; they essentially become rocketscientists about the game they play. For them a world opens that tends to be invisible to the naked eye. Think about it, if you were watching/playing chess without knowing the rules or the strategies that people are inclined to use, would you expect to have as much fun as someone who full understands the game? For those that don't know, Chess is a really interesting game if you're willing to put time and dedication into it.

And besides Chess, there are other games that require a player to be dedicated to succeed and experience a high degree of fun. The most notable ones in today's world are: Quakelive/Quake3, Guilty Gear XX Accent Core, Starcraft (2) and DotA1. If you're not invested in any of the aforementioned games, you simply will not even enjoy it. Guns of Icarus is not different really. The more you invest into this game, the better you become and the more fun you will have. It's not a bad thing, it's actually a key component that any game with a decent lifespan has. As such, it's of course imperative that we keep all casuals in the same sandbox;)

Offline Eukari

  • Member
  • Salutes: 42
    • 10 
    • 12
    • View Profile
Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2013, 06:57:19 pm »
QKO, I have no idea what you're suggesting. We separate the whole playerbase into two halves, the "casual" players and "hardcore" players? Where do you draw the line on which is which? I play the game a lot, nearly every day; am I a "hardcore" player? I understand the game, but I don't really care about minute numbers and beneath-the-hood stuff; does that mean I'm a "casual" player? Should we put two buttons when you load up the game, "Click here for Casual/Hardcore?" Wouldn't people just pick the one they want?

I know, maybe we could use a secret handshake.

Look, I know other players can often be frustrating. That's the price you have to pay in a game that's 100% built around teamwork. This isn't Call of Duty, where even the 'team' gametypes basically just mean you have less guys to shoot at. You have to cooperate to win, and we can't start pulling some separate-but-unequal system that will divide people up in unfair ways. And make no mistake- that's what such a thing would be. You don't like a player, then hit Ignore. We may not have a huge base, but surely there's enough people out there to put together a group of the right kind of people.

Hardcore gamers "enjoy a game on a lot more levels than a causal player does"? Give me a break.

Offline Adino

  • Member
  • Salutes: 0
    • 2
    • View Profile
Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2013, 11:01:27 pm »
LTB kick function

Offline QKO

  • Member
  • Salutes: 5
    • [TCD]
    • 5
    • View Profile
Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?
« Reply #25 on: August 27, 2013, 03:50:24 am »
QKO, I have no idea what you're suggesting. We separate the whole playerbase into two halves, the "casual" players and "hardcore" players? Where do you draw the line on which is which? I play the game a lot, nearly every day; am I a "hardcore" player? I understand the game, but I don't really care about minute numbers and beneath-the-hood stuff; does that mean I'm a "casual" player? Should we put two buttons when you load up the game, "Click here for Casual/Hardcore?" Wouldn't people just pick the one they want?

I know, maybe we could use a secret handshake.
Sadly, different threads get different responses. While I will not make a full repeat, you could use the commendation system on segregating lower levels that care and lower levels that don't care. And how can you claim to play this game daily and have me outlevel you?

The time spent isn't necessarily what makes an hardcore gamer. As experience grows, the amount of time required to stay on the same level decreases. And to define a casual player: a person that "plays for fun" and uses that as an excuse to behave like a retard(and pick gunner while there already is a gunner on the goldfish eventhough the captain explicitly tells him not to do that). Sadly this is different from the previous, more commonly used in 1v1 games, definition: A player that doesn't play in tournaments. By the latter definition you could for example be hardcore casual and hardcore competitive, something that with the much more modern definition provided to us by 14 year olds is not possible. In short, if you wish to enjoy the game for its entire worth, which means using your head, learning from mistakes and work to becoming a better player, you are by modern definition a hardcore gamer.
Quote
Look, I know other players can often be frustrating. That's the price you have to pay in a game that's 100% built around teamwork.
Yes, lets ignore the issue that sets most people in here off in ways that we preferably wouldn't admit. Lets just continue down this path until we end up with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AFNZx4iQWw

Quote
This isn't Call of Duty, where even the 'team' gametypes basically just mean you have less guys to shoot at. You have to cooperate to win, and we can't start pulling some separate-but-unequal system that will divide people up in unfair ways.
So you believe it's fair that people. who want to enjoy the game the way its meant to be and are working towards a win. have to deal with poeple who just don't give a shit? Because I don't. And I'm not alone in this, there's enough people flaming and leaving because they simply haven't got the patience to waste 4 hours of their day on idiots.

Quote
And make no mistake- that's what such a thing would be. You don't like a player, then hit Ignore. We may not have a huge base, but surely there's enough people out there to put together a group of the right kind of people.
Ignoring players doesn't make them listen now does it? Whether Muse does it or the community does it makes no difference on the fact that hardcore players will segregate themselves from casual players. It has happened before in just about every game that didn't do it for them. This includes dota, this includes quakelive. Casual players aren't even touching games like Guilty Gear because they simply get destroyed by the motivated playerbase.

Quote
Hardcore gamers "enjoy a game on a lot more levels than a causal player does"? Give me a break.
Having been through the process, I can state from experience that there's a whole lot more to games than casual players can comprehend. Playing a game on casual level(by modern definition) is boring to me. I'm not saying you can't have fun or try weird things, but it's the motivation to try to win with it that makes it actually fun. So yes, hardcore players do enjoy games on a lot more levels than casual players.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

  • Member
  • Salutes: 287
    • [TBB]
    • 31 
    • 34
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?
« Reply #26 on: August 27, 2013, 04:48:56 am »

Now there's lvl1-3 games where newer players could learn at their own pace. Do they use this? No. Why? Because they either 'don't need to' or because the lvl1-3 games are filled with retards(by the definition of the word). I've had on several occasions had low level crew on my ship that are joining higher level games for just this reason.

This...oh soooo much. And the wordage is perfect unfortunately.

Offline Andika

  • Member
  • Salutes: 114
    • [Cake]
    • 45 
    • 40
    • 20 
    • View Profile
Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?
« Reply #27 on: August 27, 2013, 05:55:21 am »
And I still don't want a kick option.  But I would like to specify the role for the slot.  And if I set a slot as Engineer, and a player tries to join as a Gunner they should see the message "The Captain of this airship has set a preference for an Engineer in this slot.  Continue Yes/No?"

This is actually a really good idea. First it tells new players about preferred crew combinations, as they'll see what/who an experienced captain is looking for. This way one can avoid inexperienced players with good intentions joining in as second whatevers (it often happens that somebody does not want to troll at all, just simply doesn't know about preferred crew combos).

Crew formation should have its slots saying not something like "missing a crew member", but the class that the captain selects for it (Captain could edit the text of slots to "engineer" and so on.) When you join a match, it should automatically add you to the slot that fits your class (engi would fill the engi slot, etc.) If somebody still clicks on a slot with a different class, eg. when a match has already started, a pop-up message should appear, asking them whether they really want to join with that class in spite of the fact that the captain is looking for another class. I know a message like that has no power to stop trolls, but it does make honest and well-meaning new players stop and think for a second so that they might change their minds (that is why similar messages were originally introduced on computers when you want to delete an important file or something like that).

If, in spite of all that warning, somebody joins in with a different class, he/she will have little right to complain about his/her crewmates being mad about it. Not as if shouting and swearing would be an acceptable behaviour on the part of anyone, but it is indeed frustrating when you have a good crew and one member deliberately ruins it all. I am never mad at new players who don't know what to do in some situations, but I can get angry at those who don't even care to listen to anyone. A good crew should listen to their captain as well as to each other, that's the whole point of teamplay. If someone is not willing to adapt in any way to the rest of the group, he/she should not expect positive responses.


Offline Swizy

  • Member
  • Salutes: 20
    • [T.Pr]
    • 32 
    • 45
    • 30 
    • View Profile
    • FacePunch
Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2013, 06:10:05 am »
The slot picking was discussed before. While some (including me) would like to see this there's no sign of ever giving the captain more power. Same reasons are held against as for the kick and ban downsides.

I haven't heard of TBG until this thread and therefor I don't now if he's a guy who does this "mild trolling" regularly. I don't think his intentions were bad but I'd excuse him for a game like this. Even this new type of teamplay GoIo provides is new to many players. That's something everybody will get to learn over time and it doesn't look like he played it this long before he made that video. Some players get the idea of communication earlier, some don't. But eventually they will.

Offline Andika

  • Member
  • Salutes: 114
    • [Cake]
    • 45 
    • 40
    • 20 
    • View Profile
Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2013, 06:46:40 am »
The slot picking was discussed before. While some (including me) would like to see this there's no sign of ever giving the captain more power. Same reasons are held against as for the kick and ban downsides.

I understand the reasons against kicking power, but this solution would not give captains the power to withhold players from playing or joining a ship. It would only give them a chance to communicate their preferences in a more official way than simply saying "switch to engi please" and also to help them show their preferences once matches have already started (the slots would still indicate that the captain is missing an engi and not a gunner). Players would probably be less likely to join a slot that says "Engineer" if they are gunners. If it only says "crew member", they'll join, thinking, "hey I'm a crew member, after all".

Also players could still join in with different classes, but with the pop-up message and all, they would be made aware of going against the captain's preferred loadout. This would not stop trolls, but would help new players when choosing ships so that good-intentioned players wouldn't be shouted at only because they didn't know that the captain wanted a second engi and not a second pilot.