Author Topic: Improved matchmaking via a ranking system  (Read 7069 times)

Offline Pickle

  • Member
  • Salutes: 42
    • [AeBr]
    • 14 
    • 38
    • 31 
    • View Profile
Re: Improved matchmaking via a ranking system
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2013, 02:45:48 am »
I'm not convinced the Beginner Matches are even helping beginners.

There are those like the OP that instinctively understand the game, and go on a stompfest wondering where the "real" game is.   And there are those that don't pick up the game instantly and are left floundering because they're surrounded by other newbs and there's no one to tell them how to play the game.

Over the last week or so, I've played with or against a lot of new players in the main game (summer holiday influx).  Far too often I've heard them say that they're planning on giving up because they don't understand the game, they've been on a losing streak since they started.  Or, thanks are posted to experienced Captains who've had them on their crew in the post-match lobby because for the first time they've had someone tell them what they need to do.  Really simple stuff, like aim for the hull with a gatling, hold fire with the flak until the targets armour goes down, etc.  They get their first win or first win streak.

If quick join is matchmaking entire lobbies of sub-L3 players, and I was amazed how many beginner lobbies there are, then the game is going to lose a lot of them because they're going to flounder and no one is going to notice.  There's no one on any crew they join who knows what they're doing, no one to coordinate or instruct them.  They get stomped by Kuratias and player like him again and again, until they give up and go play whatever is the Steam deal of the day.

Offline Cloudrunner

  • Member
  • Salutes: 4
    • [Gent]
    • 5
    • View Profile
Re: Improved matchmaking via a ranking system
« Reply #16 on: August 08, 2013, 03:30:24 am »
I've observed what Pickle's describing. I don't like rank systems, but at least a Coaching system should be introduced. Maybe even steal some CAs or vets to coach teams in beginner mode.

Offline Calico Jack

  • Member
  • Salutes: 25
    • [2620]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Improved matchmaking via a ranking system
« Reply #17 on: August 08, 2013, 03:59:57 am »
I was recruited as a trainer a few weeks back. I have a thread on the Steam hub for GoI which is pinned to the front of the forum area and a thread in this forum where I announce all the training sessions I'm running which are thrice weekly. Back in January I also wrote a quick start guide covering gameplay basics in such a way that new players can crew and know what they should be doing, also up on the hub and been on featuring on the frontpage since I wrote it, meaning it's being read by enough people each week to keep it there.

In my time slot there aren't that many people who do have the ability to join level 1-3 matches - not enough for a 2v2 in most cases. To get round that I've been asking regular players to help and forming up matches with at least 1 exp crew member on each ship.

Yesterday I was on late enough to catch the EU Training day - there were 7 trainers in the same match which filled a 3 v 3.

The problem I'm seeing as a trainer isn't reaching out to people - I can join level 1-3 matches but that the the players are over confident as to their actual abilities and feel they have no need to play better.

Personally I feel that it's down to a combination of the in game tutes and level locked matches - as Pickle says there is no indication given that there is more to learn.

That said I applaud the tutes and level locking as it's a step in the right direction from what happened before they were implemented.

Offline TimTim LaBaguette

  • Member
  • Salutes: 8
    • [LBS]
    • 22 
    • 45
    • 29 
    • View Profile
Re: Improved matchmaking via a ranking system
« Reply #18 on: August 08, 2013, 06:38:38 am »
Maybe all the noobs don't bother checking the steam hub, or even the forum. Maybe if there was some kind of news feed in the game, it could help, or something to direct them here idk.

Offline Calico Jack

  • Member
  • Salutes: 25
    • [2620]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Improved matchmaking via a ranking system
« Reply #19 on: August 08, 2013, 07:36:45 am »
Maybe all the noobs don't bother checking the steam hub, or even the forum. Maybe if there was some kind of news feed in the game, it could help, or something to direct them here idk.
there is a link in game to the forums - make achieves for signing up and posting on the intro thread may be a good idea, but you can lead a horse to water dot dot dot


Offline Pickle

  • Member
  • Salutes: 42
    • [AeBr]
    • 14 
    • 38
    • 31 
    • View Profile
Re: Improved matchmaking via a ranking system
« Reply #20 on: August 08, 2013, 12:58:02 pm »
Maybe all the noobs don't bother checking the steam hub, or even the forum. Maybe if there was some kind of news feed in the game, it could help, or something to direct them here idk.

I don't check the Steam hub, does anyone?  And 99% of the forum isn't about the fundamental basics of how to play the game - do even have a guide to the fundamental basics?

I've had a long drive today, and something that struck me whilst thinking about this thread is just how awkward Sandbox is for training when you need to shut down the map and restart it just because you've shown them the basics of Engineering, and now you need them to have more than one ammo/pilot tool so you can show them something else.  And I'd quite like the option of a balloon target that visually shows on screen the health of balloon, hull armour, hull, gun component and engine component (only one of each).  Just so there's an obvious, visual indication of the different relative effects of weapon and ammunition choice.  Similar to the health bars in Spectator mode, just have more of them and floating off to the side of the balloon target with an icon so you know what is what.  Perhaps even have different types whose relative health represents each ship type (although the balloon targets themselves are visually identical other than a silhouette on the balloon, and just share the same health characteristics as the ship class they represent).


Offline HamsterIV

  • Member
  • Salutes: 328
    • 10 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
    • Monkey Dev
Re: Improved matchmaking via a ranking system
« Reply #21 on: August 08, 2013, 02:52:17 pm »
This game is not for everybody, and I think a vast majority of beginners are beyond help. I am grateful for every new face that joins our community, but I accept that most of them will be leaving soon. This game is too different from what many people expect a First Person Multiplayer video game to be. Most of my IRL friends don't play even though I gave them a copy on steam.

The beginner matches are great for letting people get a taste of this game without ultra competitive captains breathing down their neck dictating their every action. Part of the fun of any game is discovering the game's mechanics. When we tell a level 1 what to do and why, we rob them of the fun of discovering it themselves. We should still do it since we would have a useless crew member otherwise. However if a new player wants the joy of discovering the meta on their own, the beginner games are the place to do so.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2013, 02:53:51 pm by HamsterIV »

Offline Calico Jack

  • Member
  • Salutes: 25
    • [2620]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile

Offline Surette

  • Community Ambassador
  • Salutes: 24
    • [MM]
    • 16 
    • 45
    • 36 
    • View Profile
    • Personal homepage
Re: Improved matchmaking via a ranking system
« Reply #23 on: August 08, 2013, 04:04:12 pm »
I've observed what Pickle's describing. I don't like rank systems, but at least a Coaching system should be introduced. Maybe even steal some CAs or vets to coach teams in beginner mode.
We do have training days and I know myself and others occasionally hop into beginner matches even not on training days, but there are simply too many new players coming in at the moment for it to be reasonable to train them all. Having more people help with training is certainly something we should encourage, but I don't think we should rely on that, because it's not feasible. We need more trainers in combination with things like a better tutorial, etc.

Regarding the main point of this thread, definitely use the manual match select. You'll find much more experienced players, and quick join tends to not put you into great matches anyway. It hardly takes any longer than quick join, and you'll be happier with your games.

Offline Calico Jack

  • Member
  • Salutes: 25
    • [2620]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Improved matchmaking via a ranking system
« Reply #24 on: August 08, 2013, 04:09:37 pm »
how awkward Sandbox is for training when you need to shut down the map and restart it just because you've shown them the basics of Engineering, and now you need them to have more than one ammo/pilot tool so you can show them something else. 

tbh before the addition of the extra functions in the sandbox it was even tougher to simulate damage in a realistic manner to train engineers, fire was impossible. Though I've been using the form crew function for setting up training sessions because it is lobby like, with mic and text chat while you can't get invaded by "gogogoredyupffs"ers and leads (almost - depending on numbers) straight into a game where they can try out what you've just been talking about in a more natural way. Sandboox is great though for working through 1 issue like what component to salvage when they're all burning etc, how to use motion indicators in the gunner's view etc

Offline Calico Jack

  • Member
  • Salutes: 25
    • [2620]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Improved matchmaking via a ranking system
« Reply #25 on: August 08, 2013, 04:13:31 pm »
Having more people help with training is certainly something we should encourage, but I don't think we should rely on that, because it's not feasible.

Sometimes it's also unavoidable though.

Offline Pickle

  • Member
  • Salutes: 42
    • [AeBr]
    • 14 
    • 38
    • 31 
    • View Profile
Re: Improved matchmaking via a ranking system
« Reply #26 on: August 14, 2013, 11:22:22 am »
I'm not convinced the Beginner Matches are even helping beginners.

Back to this point..

Is there any way that a pool of experienced players can get into Beginner matches - just in the Spectator slots?  Pulling beginners into specific training matches is like pulling teeth.  The games I've seen become dominated by the trainers making up numbers with very few trainees.

I've had players up to L3 coming onboard recently unaware of some of the basics - e.g. timing flak shots to armour destruction.  With no experience in the Beginner matches the best that can be hoped for is that players won't learn too many bad habits.  They certainly don't seem to be learning very many good ones.

It's coming back to this potential for the beginners to break-up into the Stomped and the Stompees.

Offline Calico Jack

  • Member
  • Salutes: 25
    • [2620]
    • 45 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
Re: Improved matchmaking via a ranking system
« Reply #27 on: August 14, 2013, 02:54:32 pm »
I'm not convinced the Beginner Matches are even helping beginners.

Back to this point..

Is there any way that a pool of experienced players can get into Beginner matches - just in the Spectator slots?  Pulling beginners into specific training matches is like pulling teeth.  The games I've seen become dominated by the trainers making up numbers with very few trainees.

I've had players up to L3 coming onboard recently unaware of some of the basics - e.g. timing flak shots to armour destruction.  With no experience in the Beginner matches the best that can be hoped for is that players won't learn too many bad habits.  They certainly don't seem to be learning very many good ones.

It's coming back to this potential for the beginners to break-up into the Stomped and the Stompees.


I've started running a thrice weekly sessions on Mon/Wed/Fri. I've not any trouble filling a 2v2 usually with 1 CA/exp player per ship - I believe you were in at the start of one on Monday Pickle.

The problem in particular with level 3s I'm seeing is they are convinced they know the game, having played X amount of matches in level locked games against teams that are uncoordinated and uniformed as to the basics if the game, they have never really had to learn how to play better to win. As a trainer I'm able to join level locked games but as I'm uninvited my advice is looked upon in the same light, given that I have no special chat colour. That isn't to say I've not been able to engage with players in level locked games but you really do need one experienced player per ship to actually do anything of any value, and at the moment I'm he only trainer in my timeslot.

TLDR

training is available, but not everyone feels they need training.




Offline HamsterIV

  • Member
  • Salutes: 328
    • 10 
    • 45
    • 45 
    • View Profile
    • Monkey Dev
Re: Improved matchmaking via a ranking system
« Reply #28 on: August 14, 2013, 03:29:15 pm »
I'm not convinced the Beginner Matches are even helping beginners.

Back to this point..
Is there any way that a pool of experienced players can get into Beginner matches - just in the Spectator slots?  Pulling beginners into specific training matches is like pulling teeth.  The games I've seen become dominated by the trainers making up numbers with very few trainees.

I think the CA's and mods have permission to join beginner matches as players or spectators. They have already sworn to the sky whale to not be a-holes.

Offline DMaximus

  • Community Ambassador
  • Salutes: 28
    • [MM]
    • 45 
    • 25
    • View Profile
Re: Improved matchmaking via a ranking system
« Reply #29 on: August 14, 2013, 04:19:56 pm »
I'm not convinced the Beginner Matches are even helping beginners.

Back to this point..
Is there any way that a pool of experienced players can get into Beginner matches - just in the Spectator slots?  Pulling beginners into specific training matches is like pulling teeth.  The games I've seen become dominated by the trainers making up numbers with very few trainees.

I think the CA's and mods have permission to join beginner matches as players or spectators. They have already sworn to the sky whale to not be a-holes.

Or Bacon. But yes, CAs are able to join beginners matches and non-CAs be given permission to do so on a case-by-case basis.