ENGINEER & REPAIR TOOLS v1.3 Balance Issues

[awkm]

Almost forgot, I did some work with fire!  Surprise!

Please trust me on this one, try it out.  It emphasizes the two types of fire tactics: reactionary vs. preventative.

And if you thought you had problems with fires... think again.

[naufrago]

Tried it out, decided extinguisher was best, which was actually the opposite of what I expected. If you're running around pre-spraying everything before they're on fire, you're not doing something else useful, like shooting a gun or repairing something. Additionally, that protection will eventually drop once you're in combat and forced to start repairing instead of spraying, and putting out 3 stacks at a time with a 5 second cooldown just isn't feasible. As a result, it's still much easier and more effective to go with the more reactionary extinguisher.

If the chem spray had a lower cd (I'm thinking about 2.5-3s cd), it would still be useful for preventing fires, but it wouldn't be so punishing when that protection inevitably drops. It also allows for mid-combat sprays. You could even compensate for a 1.5-2.5sec cd by reducing the number of stacks it removes to 2. Sort of make it the 'spanner' of extinguishers. It would emphasize the preventative nature of it while still allowing for spot extinguishes of tiny fires.

If you choose to nerf the extinguisher instead of, or in addition to, any changes to the chem spray, any more than 1sec longer on the cd would make fire too good. A 3.5sec cd on the fire extinguisher wouldn't be the end of the world, though.

I'd still much rather see the cooldown be on the tool rather than the component, but this seems like the path you're sticking with.

[Lord Dick Tim]

It forced me and the team mates to retreat more often to get repairs going, be in position faster for hard strikes so we can back away and get repaired up.
As captain I also came off the helm more often to hit nearby objects, or altered tactics to allow the balloon to burn out so we could drop fast, then asking for it to get repaired up.

[Sammy B. T.]

I do love the idea but it's the implementation that I feel is troublesome. I feel like the two toos have been too specialized. The whole specializing of engineer tools is a great balance.  If you bring a mallet but no spaner, you are not to useful and so on.  I fear that the two fire tools are now too specialized yet bringing two extinguising tools doesn't seemotoo feasible. They are now too preventive or too reactionary.

[awkm]

It forced me and the team mates to retreat more often to get repairs going, be in position faster for hard strikes so we can back away and get repaired up.
As captain I also came off the helm more often to hit nearby objects, or altered tactics to allow the balloon to burn out so we could drop fast, then asking for it to get repaired up.

I find this perfectly acceptable.

[Thaago]

I really like this change - it makes fire nice and dangerous, but still manageable. My only issue is that too many new people are spraying 1 stacks with chem sprays while under gat fire - they need to learn to just let it burn and use a mallet.

I do agree about the Chem Spray needing a bit of tweaking - its fine as a preventative when things are going right, but if things go wrong (and they do) then its a little too ineffective. Maybe reduce cooldown to 4 seconds?

[awkm]

Maybe reduce cooldown to 4 seconds?

Reasonable suggestion but might look at fire stack damage instead. That might be the place to start. Managing stacks, like when to ignore and stuff, is the goal.

[Letus]

Maybe reduce cooldown to 4 seconds?

Reasonable suggestion but might look at fire stack damage instead. That might be the place to start. Managing stacks, like when to ignore and stuff, is the goal.

Been doing that since the start.  If my balloon was on fire with a onestack, and the hull is going down fast, I'd always go for the hull before even fathoming the balloon.

Moreso with engines though.

The only time I went to something needed on fire was when I knew it was a flaregun fire.

[Chrinus]

I like the changes. You're punished for bringing preventative tools and not using them correctly which is how it should be. I've been running spray to main engi while having the other engi bring extinguisher and it's been working great.. fantastic even. I keep important parts sprayed the whole match (Hull, Balloon, Main engine, sometimes turning) only letting them fall if I see we don't have incoming fires in the fight. The other engineer handles any callouts I shout, and we can switch positions if necessary to keep firepower up.

While the new mechanic is a pain to learn, I can say the motto has turned backwards: Extinguish THEN repair. However now much more thought goes into extinguishing and it's easy to overwhelm someone if they're not used to the change. As Thaago said, now you need to choose what fires are worth your attention, what components are expendable, and whether or not you can outrepair a stack for the time being.

While I feel the extinguisher still may be a hair too punishing with its cooldown, spray is doing well against fire for its intended purpose. Treat it like a buff hammer and not a fire extinguisher, you'll find its use invaluable.

[Enjix]

I like the new fire system, it requires a lot more coordination to deal with them effectively when going against flamer builds.

The thing I would do to change the fire system is allow the chem-spray's buff to be used on cooldown, as right now, preventive fire fighting is an extremely sharp double edged sword during combat.

I was playing as the chem engineer, working with an extinguisher engineer, against a pyra which featured flamethrowers, banshees, and flare guns firing all at one time, which turned out to be a good way to find out just how much fire the new system could handle. The issue I kept running into was that I could keep the buff up while we were out of combat, as using chem on a fully repaired component doesn't activate the cooldown. However, once we started taking damage, then keeping the buffs up would cause the 5 second cooldown, which would mess up the repair circuit as well.

Then there becomes a choice of if you want to use the chem spray, wait the 5 seconds of cooldown, and pray that it can survive those 5 seconds when it's sitting at around 50% health from the start and still taking heavy damage.

Or repair the component you are treating, causing a repair cooldown, giving it more health, watching the stacks of fire continue to grow out of control and possibly missing the chem buff again because it needs to be repaired a second time.

Having watched both components slowly crumble to dust while staring at the chem's cooldown and wishing it away, and watching a single stack of fire grow into 20 after one mallet cooldown, it's a pretty tough decision to make.

Having the buff work outside of the cooldown system, while still requiring the component to be off cooldown to put out fires, would allow the preventive part of fire fighting to still perform in the heat of combat and would require the same coordination with an extinguisher, as chem camping to put out fires would still be very ineffective.



Also, Sammy, that Roasted Duck is just mean.

[Sammy B. T.]

RoastING Duck. Not Roasted Duck.

[awkm]

Having the buff work outside of the cooldown system

Interesting idea.  My first thought is that it will overpower the Chem spray a little bit.  The important thing to add is that if there are fire charges, it will always extinguish and apply the cooldown.  If the component is already cooling down, only resistance will be added.  Furthermore, right now the timer for resistance is reset every time you spray something.  It might need to be that it can't be reapplied and reset, you have to wait for the resistance to timeout first before reapplying.  This will require additional UI to show you how much time is left though.

Since both these things will require code changes as well as additional UI, I'll have to evaluate based on how much bandwidth the team has.  An unfortunate reality.  However, I will say that the resistance ignoring cooldown idea may be the easier to implement (UI is always just harder since it requires both engineering and artist time)... might be able to test that first.

[Captain Smollett]

I like resistance being added during cool down but the tool would need to be nerfed in some other way to compensate for such a strong buff.

[snor-laxatives]

maybe we go back to the idea of dropping the amount of stacks of fire it takes off?  it seems the reason for allowing chem spray to apply buff outside of cooldown would be to keep components from the rebuild, fire during cool down, break, rebuild, fire during cool down, break, cycle.  If chem spray only removed 2/3 stacks of fire it would shift the focus even more heavily towards prevention.

also, opinions of then wrench, buff, extinguisher engineer?  or is there another thread for that

[Enjix]

The important thing to add is that if there are fire charges, it will always extinguish and apply the cooldown.  If the component is already cooling down, only resistance will be added.  Furthermore, right now the timer for resistance is reset every time you spray something.  It might need to be that it can't be reapplied and reset, you have to wait for the resistance to timeout first before reapplying.  This will require additional UI to show you how much time is left though.

Exactly, it would still work just like the fire extinguisher as far as putting out fires goes (besides the stack limit), just the buff would be separate from that. And I do like the idea of needing to wait for it to expire. Adds some more finesse with working out the timing. The UI aspect of it would be nice, I don't think it's absolutely necessary, just as long as the blue glint is consistent with the buff.

Another idea would be to allow the buff to ignore cooldowns only if there are no stacks of fire on the component. That would mean that you could still work the buffing in with a repair circuit, but if a stack of fire sneaks though while you aren't paying attention, you either have to devote time to putting it out, or the has the potential to grow.

RoastING Duck. Not Roasted Duck.

Ah, Roasting Duck, that's what it was, sorry. I couldn't remember between those two and Roast Duck, decided to just go with the one that was actually a meal... I think you scarred my memory, let's blame it on that.