Author Topic: Engagement length  (Read 32620 times)

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Engagement length
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2013, 05:31:14 pm »
I'm not going to go all into detail here and just toss in some "meat" for you guys to think about.


What if heavy clip reduced firing rate (or if it does, to a greater %)? I can't see that "hurting" many guns besides gat/flak. It'll hit carronades but well placed shots are killing that balloon anyway, and most other guns use it for arming reduction or long shots, which slower fire rate wouldn't really hinder.

It's also know by awkm that the firing arc of a gatling gun is a bit, large. He won't touch it due to lack of piercing options. I think once another option rolls its way into the game, this all will be a moot point.

I also just came up with this on the fly and haven't thought it through 100%, so yea.

Offline Echoez

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Re: Engagement length
« Reply #31 on: June 16, 2013, 05:40:59 pm »
  Heavy clip doesn't reduce firing rate, it reduces projectile speed, which is probably why it's a no brainer for the Gatling since projectile speed doesn't matter at all on one. Not sure about the firing rate downside though as it would hurt both the Carronades and the Hwacha a lot, especially the Hwacha since you want all the missles to be close to each other for the long range shot.

  Would be nice to see how it would handle if it decreased clip size by around 25%. Wouldn't harm the Hwacha and Carronades much, since the Hwacha would still have 15 missiles loaded and the Carronades would just lose out on one more shot, the Gatling on the other side would lose out on 15 bullets, equalling to at least 255 armor damage, which is a whole other mallet stroke.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Engagement length
« Reply #32 on: June 16, 2013, 05:49:50 pm »
I'll never back a change that would reduce a heavy carronade shot down to one (except loch of course). Heavy is its only way to make effective use of its max range, which is obviously short enough at it is.

Also, heavy in a hwacha barely breaks anything now with a full barrage hit (hit is even more rare). Reducing the clip would be more detrimental than a slight firing rate reduction.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 05:54:26 pm by RearAdmiralZill »

Offline Echoez

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Re: Engagement length
« Reply #33 on: June 16, 2013, 06:28:00 pm »
I'll never back a change that would reduce a heavy carronade shot down to one (except loch of course). Heavy is its only way to make effective use of its max range, which is obviously short enough at it is.

Also, heavy in a hwacha barely breaks anything now with a full barrage hit (hit is even more rare). Reducing the clip would be more detrimental than a slight firing rate reduction.

Well I don't know, I also meant down one shot, I meant the light ones, the Heavy one wouldn't lose a shot since it's only 25% less and not 40% or something, it only has 2 shots after all. As for the Hwacha Barrage I don't mind it being less effective at range right now tbh, but that's for an other thread.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2013, 06:36:23 pm by EchoLG »

Offline Rainer Zu Fall

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Re: Engagement length
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2013, 09:20:37 am »
I think reducing the gat's range would pretty much help on like...say...300m. That would lead to a much higher use of other guns and combos again!

Changing ammo wouldn't probably lead to anything since other guns would be getting worse too. Just look at the Hwacha (as already noticed).

What about reducing the gat's arc and giving us a new piercing gun?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 09:22:31 am by KaLeu RainerZuFall »

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Engagement length
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2013, 09:35:26 am »
Quote
What about reducing the gat's arc and giving us a new piercing gun?

I've tried. Quotes from me and awkm.

Awkm, I only meant the firing arc of the gun itself, not the damage. I can see why you don't touch it with a 10ft pole currently, though one could argue a merc can perform the same result with some finesse.

Firing arc? Maybe later when there are other piercing options.

And yes, the Field Gun is great at taking out armor.  Although it does require some planning and therefore skill.

While merc does give another option, people seldom use it for, I guess the arc?

Offline Chrinus

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Re: Engagement length
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2013, 09:43:42 am »
I'm not so sure a change in heavy ammo would necessarily harm the other guns it's popular on besides the gat/flak. At least after some consideration of adding say a 20% damage decrease instead of (or in addition to) the 25% reduced muzzle velocity.

The manticore and carronades both benefit far beyond the gatling and flak from the 80% recoil reduction, which for those weapons makes up for that damage loss. The point of this change being to extend the engage time for the gatling to peel armor at max distance because of the damage reduction. It would also make it take an extra reload of flak for most ships to down by using it. This turns these medium-long range engagements to a battle of positioning, precision, and time on attack. Something I feel there isn't a lot of outside ranked matches.

Besides increasing engage time and offering risk/reward for firing non heavy flak, this also promotes the use of gunners. Gunners who can bring damage enhancing ammunition for these weapons to switch to once their opponent is close enough to engage with full effect. Also, I could see higher use of buff engineers to offset the damage reduction rather than make it all the more deadly (which I admit, I'm a huge fan of doing... 30-50 round armor peel is devastating at max range with a good flak gunner waiting).

Anyhow, just thought I'd share the idea.

While merc does give another option, people seldom use it for, I guess the arc?

That arc is the main reason I see it not used much. However it also takes longer to achieve a strip compared to a good shot on the gat due to the need to reload. Also a single miss is devastating to it's efficiency.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 10:00:23 am by Chrinus »

Offline Sammy B. T.

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Re: Engagement length
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2013, 10:20:56 am »
Is there a way to increase recoil the longer a gun is fired? That could solve a few issues. It could require the user to slow down their firing by giving some cool down.

Offline Echoez

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Re: Engagement length
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2013, 10:44:17 am »
Changing ammo wouldn't probably lead to anything since other guns would be getting worse too. Just look at the Hwacha (as already noticed).

After sleeping and having an average day so far, I can say I think more clearly now than myself at 2 AM in the morning and I realize that nerfing clip size on the Heavy rounds would be a horrid idea, kinda feel silly for proposing that.

Anyway, for me, the arc of the gatling isn't the main problem, the stupid range it has for an automatic weapon is and how it doesn't matter how close you are to the enemy for it to deal maximum damage.

Of course, Heavy clip is the main reason for the gatling's extreme range efficiency, without it, the gatling spread is quite large and it can use Heavy rounds with absolutely no downside, maybe it IS Heavy clip that is the problem after all though, since it is extremely useful on way too many guns.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 10:46:00 am by EchoLG »

Offline Zenark

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Re: Engagement length
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2013, 12:04:17 pm »
Why not just decrease the clip size? Not by a whole bunch of course, but perhaps enough that gunners would want to bring ammo that would increase its capacity.

Frankly, before they eventually nerf it, I think they'll have released another piercing weapon.

Offline Rainer Zu Fall

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Re: Engagement length
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2013, 12:06:12 pm »
I'm not so sure a change in heavy ammo would necessarily harm the other guns it's popular on besides the gat/flak. At least after some consideration of adding say a 20% damage decrease instead of (or in addition to) the 25% reduced muzzle velocity.

As already noted, a Hwacha with heavy deals almost no component killing damage. Nerfing it more would just make it a CQC weapon like the carronade (which would suffer from it too since you can't aim down with it and you would be loosing the additional help you might have gotten by concentrating the pellets much more on the aim). That wouldn't be so bad, but there still would be the same proportion between those guns too. It would help keep the hull armor up longer, sure. But since you won't able to fire back as efficient as before...where would it lead to? Maybe guns that dont need heavy clip would be more common then, like a heavy flak fish. Since almost everyone will still be using it there's just nothing gained. The fight won't be getting any closer except people would start using greased - but your engineer has to think about using greased or heavy for the ranges, since he may only take one. That may add more tactics into this loadout but unexperienced players would have a really hard time. And since other guns would be nerfed too (Hwacha being only CQC with greased/burst/charged like the carronade) no one would use heavy anymore. You could just take it out of the game. The light flak would be a CQC weapon too. Which weapon would you use with the merc now? Almost completely useless too (except for a Spire).
To sum it up: It would lead to many changes, helping the strategic parts of the game but probably killing some fun (especially for beginners), making some guns and ammo types close to useless and destroying even more balance of the game.
It may have many ups but also many downs. I'm right now neither saying that I think it's good nor that it's bad.

The manticore and carronades both benefit far beyond the gatling and flak from the 80% recoil reduction, which for those weapons makes up for that damage loss.

Look above.

Besides increasing engage time and offering risk/reward for firing non heavy flak, this also promotes the use of gunners. Gunners who can bring damage enhancing ammunition for these weapons to switch to once their opponent is close enough to engage with full effect. Also, I could see higher use of buff engineers to offset the damage reduction rather than make it all the more deadly (which I admit, I'm a huge fan of doing... 30-50 round armor peel is devastating at max range with a good flak gunner waiting).

Look above.

That arc is the main reason I see it not used much. However it also takes longer to achieve a strip compared to a good shot on the gat due to the need to reload. Also a single miss is devastating to it's efficiency.

If you stay far away with a flak as second gun there is nothing wrong with that arc. I'd like to see those two in combination, and the gat and mortar in combination. That would be pretty awesome. They would just have to decrease the effective range of the gatling, which would lead to the increased engage time you mentioned before but without the problems of having other guns suffering from it too. Also you could change the firing speed of the gat, which then might lead to the also already mentioned specialization of either greased or heavy. Said that I'd prefer them to nerf the gatling instead of a whole ammo type in favor of the balance.


Changing ammo wouldn't probably lead to anything since other guns would be getting worse too. Just look at the Hwacha (as already noticed).
Anyway, for me, the arc of the gatling isn't the main problem, the stupid range it has for an automatic weapon is and how it doesn't matter how close you are to the enemy for it to deal maximum damage.

Of course, Heavy clip is the main reason for the gatling's extreme range efficiency, without it, the gatling spread is quite large and it can use Heavy rounds with absolutely no downside, maybe it IS Heavy clip that is the problem after all though, since it is extremely useful on way too many guns.

The arc might be a problem too since you may keep on firing the gatling on a pyra for example even if the enemy is almost at 180° on one of your sides. I agree though that the range is a real problem.

Heavy clip is used in many guns - but it's pretty useless in others like heavy flak, lumberjack, merc, mortar... So it's pretty even. Nerfing heavy clip would lead to a dominance of these weapons which, after all, would lead to another balance issue.

Offline Pickle

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Re: Engagement length
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2013, 12:16:40 pm »
Rebalance the per shot damage of the Gatling, that way no other weapon is affected by the change.

Piercing 8 (down from 10), Shatter 10

That wipes 20% off the armour-stripping power (regardless of ammunition choice) and tilts the strategy slightly more towards component damage.  No need to fiddle with Heavy Clip modifiers.

Offline Rainer Zu Fall

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Re: Engagement length
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2013, 12:21:12 pm »
First of all, Pickle, I don't think your idea is bad. It's simple, which is good! But it is based on the fact (as the gat is used nowadays) that the gat is a far range weapon. But with your idea it'd still be used like that, almost no one would even use greased or something like that. Which is a shame I think.

Offline RearAdmiralZill

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Re: Engagement length
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2013, 12:38:49 pm »
I like the smaller clip idea (not drastic of course), which then promotes ammo clips that increase it, which also lower its accuracy by default. It'll also open up the gunner game on it.

Gatling is mid-range at best, in my opinion.

Offline Rainer Zu Fall

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Re: Engagement length
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2013, 12:54:57 pm »
I really like your idea Zill! It looks solid and there are more pros then cons.
If the gat itself had less ammo we would need clips to even it out which decreases the accuracy. And heavy wouldn't give us anything towards that except accuracy. Thinking of the gat using a strip of bullets maybe the reload time might be a bit higher?