Author Topic: Divide Lochnagar damage by clip size  (Read 4712 times)

Offline Arthem White

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Divide Lochnagar damage by clip size
« on: July 27, 2013, 06:56:04 am »
I love the idea behind Lochnagar ammo, a high risk-high reward shot for skilled gunners. Unfortunately, I think the design is flawed. Unlike other types of ammo, which may be better or worse on different guns, Lochnagar is the only type of ammo that straight doesn't work on certain guns (such as Gatling or Flamethrower). This is bad for a couple of reasons:

1- The most obvious, it limits gameplay choices. It could be used in several different guns, but by design it can't, which leaves the gunner with fewer tactical choices.

2- It's very bad for newbies. I've seen many youtube videos in which a newbie loaded Lochnagar on his gun and wondered why it didn't work. Hell, if I recall correctly there was a point in the TGS podcast in which someone tried to shoot a gatling with lochnagar and wondered why it felt like a pea shooter (maybe it was on some other video, please correct me).

So how can this be fixed? I think there is a simple way to deal with the issue with Lochnagar ammo, and it is the following:

Divide the damage the Gun gets from firing Lochnagar by its clip size.

It doesn't have to be exactly that, it can be twice the damage THEN divided by clip size or whatever. The idea is that the weapon breaks after a consistent percentage of the clip size has been used, so if you're used a one-shot gun it will break right away, while you'll be able to empty anything from half to a full clip when using a gatling, before it breaks down.

I think this would make Lochnagar scalable between different weapons while keeping its background drawbacks (terrible rotation speed, self damage). What do you think?

Offline Echoez

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Re: Divide Lochnagar damage by clip size
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2013, 07:25:53 am »
Last time I checked there were other ammo types that made no sense on some guns as well.

Lochnagar is a specialized ammo for specific guns, it works on the Lumberjack, the Typhon, the Hellhound and the Mercury. That's how it is. Ammo types are designed to work with some guns and not work with others.

Just like you won't load Burst rounds on the Gatling, you will not load Lochnagar on it either.

You won't load Lesmok on the Manticore cause the extra range is useless with the spread it has.

You will also not load Greased on a Typhon Heavy Flak cause it makes no sense to lower your damage while not realy getting any other benefits from the ammo type.


Offline Pickle

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Re: Divide Lochnagar damage by clip size
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2013, 09:14:18 am »
Ammunition types do not have to be universal.

Advisory: Thinking may be involved in playing this game.

Offline Commodore Phoenix

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Re: Divide Lochnagar damage by clip size
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2013, 01:08:36 pm »

Advisory: Thinking may be involved in playing this game.


Salute!

Offline -Muse- Cullen

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Re: Divide Lochnagar damage by clip size
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2013, 02:26:16 pm »
Personally, I think that a single bullet from a Gatling, with lochnagar, shouldn't do the same amount of damage as a full clip- nor half a clip. I don't think that its believable when a single little ~pew pbbblt~ bullet from the gat suddenly rips apart half of the armor of a ship. Not all ammo types can be used on all guns, but most guns can use more than one ammo to get different effectiveness out of it. Its a Gunner's job to learn each weapon and find out what ammo types work the best for each.

Offline Arthem White

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Re: Divide Lochnagar damage by clip size
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2013, 02:59:13 pm »
Personally, I think that a single bullet from a Gatling, with lochnagar, shouldn't do the same amount of damage as a full clip- nor half a clip. I don't think that its believable when a single little ~pew pbbblt~ bullet from the gat suddenly rips apart half of the armor of a ship. Not all ammo types can be used on all guns, but most guns can use more than one ammo to get different effectiveness out of it. Its a Gunner's job to learn each weapon and find out what ammo types work the best for each.

I understand the sentiment but I think you misread my suggestion :)

I'm not asking for Lochnagar BONUS damage to scale off clip size, but rather Lochnagar SELF damage to be lower based on clip size, so a Gatling dies out after firing several shots, rather than after the first trigger pull. Damage from an individual shot should stay the same.

To the rest of posters: I understand different guns benefit from different weapons. However, I think there is a big leap between using suboptimal ammo and using ammo that straight doesn't work. This is worsened by not being evident to newbies at all, and the game has been criticised for a steep learning curve.

Offline Commodore Phoenix

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Re: Divide Lochnagar damage by clip size
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2013, 06:54:33 pm »
As Pickle said "Thinking may be involved" and I quote the steam store  page here "Balanced, competitive matches reward strategic, skillful play" this game is about your understanding of it if you don't get it straight away learn in sandbox or find a good captain or clan and fly with them. The community here is great they will help you out. Also of course there is a leap in ammo if there wasn't what would be the point of having specific ammo, if all ammo slightly benefited all weapons with no serious affect there would be no point to them.

Offline Thaago

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Re: Divide Lochnagar damage by clip size
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2013, 09:16:28 pm »
I'm very surprised by some of the hostile and nonconstructive responses here! It honestly seems like some people did not read or understand the original post and proceeded to attack, degrade, and condescend to the poster. Not what I've come to expect from this forum.

The OP is not suggesting making this ammo type good for everything. They correctly point out that the ammo type is disproportionately bad for the guns it does not work on (and you must admit that no other "mismatch" is as bad) and suggests a way to ameliorate that - making guns take damage over time as they fire, in proportion to their total ammo. A Gatling for example might get off 15 shots before it breaks, or something like that - the details weren't set. Its still a bad match for the gatling, but maybe not as bad. Low ammo type weapons would be largely unaffected - it all depends on the details.

Do I think the suggestion is needed? Well... no. I think its ok for us to have an "expert" ammo, and I like how Lochnager works as is. That said, it is extremely noob unfriendly, so maybe a bit of tweaking is in order. Having a gradual gun breaking might be a good step in that direction. It also might open up new tactical possibilities. For example, a gat with this might do less damage per cycle, less damage per clip, and break, but for a little while deal very high burst dps. Thats situationaly useful and also interesting. Would a good gunner ever use it? Probably not.

Offline Arthem White

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Re: Divide Lochnagar damage by clip size
« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2013, 03:15:21 am »
I'm very surprised by some of the hostile and nonconstructive responses here! It honestly seems like some people did not read or understand the original post and proceeded to attack, degrade, and condescend to the poster. Not what I've come to expect from this forum.

The OP is not suggesting making this ammo type good for everything. They correctly point out that the ammo type is disproportionately bad for the guns it does not work on (and you must admit that no other "mismatch" is as bad) and suggests a way to ameliorate that - making guns take damage over time as they fire, in proportion to their total ammo. A Gatling for example might get off 15 shots before it breaks, or something like that - the details weren't set. Its still a bad match for the gatling, but maybe not as bad. Low ammo type weapons would be largely unaffected - it all depends on the details.

Do I think the suggestion is needed? Well... no. I think its ok for us to have an "expert" ammo, and I like how Lochnager works as is. That said, it is extremely noob unfriendly, so maybe a bit of tweaking is in order. Having a gradual gun breaking might be a good step in that direction. It also might open up new tactical possibilities. For example, a gat with this might do less damage per cycle, less damage per clip, and break, but for a little while deal very high burst dps. Thats situationaly useful and also interesting. Would a good gunner ever use it? Probably not.

Thank you very much, you get my salute.

You said pretty much everything I had in mind. I was planning to write something like that but the condescending tone of some answers killed my motivation.

Guys, I know this game involves thinking. However, thinking involves decisions, choices. Lochnagar in 80% of the game's weaponry is not a choice by any strength of the imagination, and that is bad design.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2013, 03:18:00 am by Arthem White »

Offline Echoez

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Re: Divide Lochnagar damage by clip size
« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2013, 08:18:24 am »
A Gatling for example might get off 15 shots before it breaks, or something like that

I just want to mention that Lochnagar is made to reduce any gun's clip size to one, if what you want is to fire a single bullet from the Gatling and your weapon not to instantly break, fine, but I don't know where did you get the 15 bullets shot, will you reload it 15 times? Loch is a very specialized ammo designed to work on specific guns, It's not bad design nor should it be changed, which is why the responces here aren't realy all that possitive.

Offline Commodore Phoenix

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Re: Divide Lochnagar damage by clip size
« Reply #10 on: July 28, 2013, 08:48:14 am »
Thanks Echo, that was the point I was making I understood the point being made and I said why the ammo was noob unfriendly. If there is an ammunition that any person can use relatively well that can cause serious damage sometimes instant death it is too over-powered also the fact that it damages a weapon is to balance it, you really shouldn't use it on a light weapon as it will destroy it that's just a good balance compared to allowing some one another chance at shooting if they failed the first time. In response to your theory about the lochnager Gatling it's just not a serious viable option as it takes a full clip on a gatling gun to shred a hull even with lochnagars improved damage it would not be effective but if you were to put the lochnagar in a light Flak cannon it would be effective even with one shot you can reduce the hull health to 50%. Like we said before its about understanding this game and how it works.

If you find our attitude hostile or nonconstructive well I don't quite think you read the majority of my post where I said find a captain or clan as we are a nice community. So, yeah, that's very rude and insulting.

Offline Pickle

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Re: Divide Lochnagar damage by clip size
« Reply #11 on: July 28, 2013, 01:44:33 pm »
Guys, I know this game involves thinking. However, thinking involves decisions, choices. Lochnagar in 80% of the game's weaponry is not a choice by any strength of the imagination, and that is bad design.

No it's not bad design.  If a game makes you think it's good design.  There are plenty of no-thought, can't-make-a-bad-choice games on the market.

I can't load .45ACP in an Uzi, it's not a design fault, it's the way it works.  Lochnager is an over-charge of propellant and a super-sized round.  It's only be relevant to artillery pieces.

Would you complain that Greased Rounds is less effective on the Mercury than the Whirlwind?  Does the large clip size of the Whirlwind make Incendiary Rounds OP on that weapon?

The steep learning curve is what makes this game attractive, and one of the primary causes of players sticking with it.  And this isn't a hostile response, it's the response you get when once again someone suggests that a feature of the game is somehow broken.  Particularly when a non-Gunner is criticising a weaponry feature.

Offline Plasmarobo

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Re: Divide Lochnagar damage by clip size
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2013, 09:18:09 am »
The steep learning curve is greatly mitigated by the forums! We offer suggestions and help (though I guess we could be nicer about it). I don't think the learning curve of this game is all that steep actually. Relatively at least. Go play Dwarf Fortress and get back to me. Like most games, I think it's fairly quick to learn, difficult to master. It's unique blend of strategy, teamwork, and action make it a bit unpredictable. But let's focus on being helpful, rather than just telling someone they are wrong.

As someone who's been on the receiving end of a Loch carronade (and nearly everything else) I can tell you I would be very miffed if Loch didn't take down the weapons so quickly. Each ammo maps to a few guns and that's pretty cool, learning what those are is fun! If someone did more damage with a gat then is already does to armor... I'd rather not think about it.

I think what you want from Loch would be an entirely new ammo type (a stepping stone of sorts). But one of the beauties of this game is that all gameplay options are available to you immediately, and the defaults are pretty accessible. I encourage you to ask questions in game of CAs or other players and help the newbies on your crew! Our community is great for this reason, please don't take this one thread as a sample, we really do want to keep you as a player and help.