Author Topic: Other than Airships  (Read 10164 times)

Offline Khamael

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Other than Airships
« on: May 27, 2013, 01:27:11 pm »
Alright, so obviously there is not going to be boarding and for very good reason, but that doesn't mean the game's combat shout be restricted to airships alone. Even though I have absolutely no experience in game development or concepts, I hope my ideas will at least be considered by someone.

When Adventure Mode is released, there is going to be trading between towns and factions at war. If the two towns are going to be fighting, it's unlikely that in reality the fight would be only in the air. I'm not talking about a Battlefield styled FPS game, but I do like the thought of a kind of siege mode in which one team is in airships attacking a town and the other team is in the town manning turrets on the ground. I have also seen fan art of tanks to be used in the game, though I don't know how much that would contribute to gameplay, if at all.

Another idea my friends and I had is larger airships. In the story of Guns of Icarus, there used to be massive airships, but that technology was lost, leaving everyone with the smaller, four person ships currently in the game. Well, I think it would be interesting to have the technology rediscovered and have ships with crews of ten and greater. This would also explain why there are light and medium guns but no heavy guns. The heavy guns would be on the larger ships. Also, with a teamwork based game, this would make the game much more teamwork oriented because everyone would have to pay attention to every subsystem on the ship.

Another concept that goes with the larger airships would be biplanes. A friend of mine mentioned that it would be interesting to have the ability to launch planes off of the larger ships for a more fast paced aerial combat. However, another friend pointed out that this would have the ability to destroy the entire premise of the game, teamwork. One player in an airplane might have the ability to lead the whole game, rendering the rest of the team inadequate. Which is why I also suggest the planes not be totally self-sufficient.

The first way to do this would be to require a pilot and a gunner. Instead of one player flying and shooting directly in front, there could be a player who flies the plane and another, or maybe two, players who man an ball turret underneath the plane and/or a tail mounted gun.

Another way to balance the biplanes, which I actually think is better than the previous option, is to have specialized planes. While there could be more advanced varieties than these, at a basic level there would be fighters and bombers. The fighters' guns would be very ineffective against the airships due to their size, but their mobility would make them great at shooting down other planes. Then there is the bomber, whose bombs would be very inaccurate. This would not be a problem against the airships because they are so large, but it would be extremely difficult to hit planes with them. This would make it necessary for a squadron of fighters to protect only one or two bombers. It would require more coordination because of the amount of people needed to simultaneously launch, as well as making sure the bombers don't get shot down. While there could be others, like heavy fighters for taking out groups of planes or interceptors specifically for taking out bombers, the basic concept would be the fighters and bombers.

Offline Audie Murphy

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Re: Other than Airships
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2013, 01:39:59 pm »
but that doesn't mean the game's combat shout be restricted to airships alone.

...This is a game about airship combat. Yes, the game's combat is going to be restricted to airships.

Large, boss airships and biplanes are coming with adventure mode. However I don't think that they are going to be available for players to fly. I like the idea of player-driven sky fortresses with large crews, but I hate the idea of players driving biplanes. I don't think it'll be at all possible to allow that without destroying the teamwork aspect of this game that makes it so fun.

One thing I would like to see would be if the heavy guns required 2 crew members to operate. Perhaps one to load the ammo and the other to aim and fire. Or one to spot and one to fire (think sniper team). It would balance the heavy guns by requiring lots of teamwork to make them fire, add variety to crew roles, and inject a cool realism factor that no other game has explored.

Town siege sounds pretty cool. I'm in for that idea. However, creating towns that you can explore with your avatar is pretty far down Muse's checklist for Adventure Mode, so if that idea does happen, it won't be for some times.

Tanks? No. At least I hope not.

Offline Khamael

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Re: Other than Airships
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2013, 02:28:39 pm »
Someone suggested to me that the airplanes be AI controlled so that they serve more as an annoyance attack that's only effective if you ignore it, like fire. I suppose that would make the game more balanced and easier to play.

I really like your idea of the heavy guns requiring two people. It would definitely add more complexity to the game and a lack of teamwork would render the most powerful weapons useless.

Also, I should reword "town siege". You wouldn't so much be in the town as you would be on the walls or in a nearby fortress. The town itself would be no more than decoration. So it could be walls surrounding the town with mounted guns along the edges. Falling off the walls would do the same thing falling off a ship does. That or the town would be off to the side (or maybe no town at all, seeing as it serves no purpose) and the players would be in a contained fortress.

As for the tanks, it was a random idea I saw somewhere. I really don't think it's a good idea, but I figured I'd throw it out there anyway. However, there was one aerial combat game I once played that had AI controlled flak cannons on the ground. Something similar could be done with the tanks. They'd serve a similar purpose to the AI biplanes.

Offline Ofiach

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Re: Other than Airships
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2013, 03:23:41 pm »
I believe someone made a suggestion along the lines of your town siege idea in another post, maybe in the adventure mode suggestions thread, but that is 21 pages long so.... yeah.

I will say this to your idea, I do not want to be forced to play a gametype like this. I don't mind flying against a fortress or city but I do not personally want to be a wall gunner.

With that being said, I know some people do want this and I think it's a great idea. I just don't want to be forced into playing this gametype. It should have nothing to do with any airship progression, maybe a Faction status building side event, but not a main event. 

Once again I do think this is a really cool idea.

Also ground based defenses that shoot at airships are just, common sense, that's hopefully going to be added. Basically Steampunk AA, that's gotta make an appearance or Muse is gonna make me cry.

As to the biplanes, I think that would ruin the team centered core of this game. I would personally like to see them as AI only

Anyway just my two cents on your idea.

Offline Khamael

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Re: Other than Airships
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2013, 04:10:17 pm »
Yeah, the siege shouldn't be mandatory. It should just be another optional gamemode, like how they have deathmatch and king of the hill right now.

Also, AI planes could be a captain item. Like, they have the ability to target a ship and then a bunch of AI planes will fly out and attack it. They'll basically be like a swarm of bees. More of a distraction than anything seriously dangerous. But they become dangerous of you leave them, so you'll want to shoot them down anyway.

I don't know, I just like the thought of a bunch of biplanes flying off of a massive airship straight at another massive airship.

Offline Audie Murphy

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Re: Other than Airships
« Reply #5 on: May 29, 2013, 12:24:34 pm »
I will say this to your idea, I do not want to be forced to play a gametype like this. I don't mind flying against a fortress or city but I do not personally want to be a wall gunner.

I understand where you're coming from on that, but I think that big fortresses or skyships would be a great opportunity to continue exploring team hierarchies. I think that part of what makes the teamwork in GOIO fun is the fact that each crew has a captain, that they answer to.

What if, in larger crew, there was another level of depth added to the hierarchy? A skyship would have multiple gunners and engineers, so what if they were each treated as their own crew, who answered to an Ordinance Officer and Chief Engineer, respectively, who then reported directly to the Captain?

I can already think of a lot of valid objections to that, but one of the things I like most about GOIO is the way that it immerses you into the game by using the rules of the game to enforce a hierarchy within each team. You feel like you're actually crewing an airship because you have a captain, who is a real person, who gives you orders that you have to follow in order for your ship to survive, and the your success depends on your ability to work together with your captain and fellow crew.

What makes wall-gunning boring is the fact that you are forced to shoot at only what the computer puts in front of you. But on a big skyship, you will be shooting at what your captain and crew put in front of you, which I think would be just as rewarding of an experience as gunning for a smaller ship.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2013, 12:26:20 pm by Audie Murphy »

Offline Sonoskay

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Re: Other than Airships
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2013, 12:09:47 pm »
Alot of these ideas are good. But they are VERY ambitous.and take time and money.

Money i dont think muse has. Im going to use world of tanks as an exsample. Before  they got a bigger base of players they really wernt able to do much. Add a few tanks here.. a few maps here..  so on and so forth.  I think Muse is going to have to come up with a solid way to make money besides the game themselfe... I think it would be cool if they added custumizable ship features... like a logo on the balloon or effect the color of the airships... (slightly) i mean an airship thats bright pink thats not  at all faded or worn would kill part of the atmousphear... add a few more costumes and so on.. and use the steam wallet to acces it.

In this way you are not restricting game play in the slightest. but also making it so there is SOmthing offered if you spend a little bit more money. But since we did buy the game in the first place make a few free customizable things. i would love to see all the ideas you stated come to fruitoin but i think there needs to be a stable way to make money.. (though if they are careful the adventure DLC will make them oodles.)

Offline Arthem White

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Re: Other than Airships
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2013, 01:33:41 pm »
I think the notion that biplanes equal no teamwork is narrow sighted. Player driven biplanes could be made as teamwork heavy as airships.

Imagine a 4-biplane squad working the same way an airship does, it needs 4 people to be manned and functions as a single unit. One biplane is the refueller (the rest need to constantly go back at it for repairs). Another is a bomber + ammo depot, but it's very slow (so it powers the rest and needs to be protected) and there are two fighters.

With setups like this, or similar (such as a couple of two-person biplanes that exhibit synergy) could be teamwork heavy and offer a faster paced, twitchier gameplay for those interested.

I'm all for it, as much as for bigger, meatier boss ships =)

Offline Rainer Zu Fall

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Re: Other than Airships
« Reply #8 on: May 30, 2013, 02:04:59 pm »
I really like the idea of those 2 player operated heavy guns, that sounds like something that might work. Still, for those guns there need to be more ships which need to be balanced to other ships and maps, with guns balanced to each other and so on...
This looks very ... well, time-consuming.
Furthermore, if we get about, let's say, 3 more ships (pyramidion, squid and junker only with light weapons; galleon, goldfish, spire only with medium weapons) we already have 9 ships to choose from.
You please go ahead and try to explain to new players how to operate every single gun and ship and how to use them effectively (besides the balance effect, as said before). I don't think that's gonna happen with the adventure mode in the works. (Although, I have to confess I really like the idea of big ships with 1 pilot, probably 3 engineers and 4 gunners or stuff like that. Of course, they would need more/bigger engines, maybe more than just one armor/balloon [?] that need to be repaired. So you can make the engineers and gunners related to the area they're gonna be used at.)

Offline Gambrill

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Re: Other than Airships
« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2013, 02:55:20 pm »
what about this as a possiblity?

trading tech? being able to add something to a weapon like an enhanced zoom, but obviously have a downside as in maybe you have an extra setting on zoom yet you fire 20% slower etc.?

i'm just spit balling here, you could get a carronade but with a longer barrel to make it reach just a little further away yet its spread is less.

that way its not just about what the gunner is equiping for the gun, but if the guns got certain attachments the gunner may want to rethink his load-out :)

Offline Rainer Zu Fall

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Re: Other than Airships
« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2013, 03:26:09 pm »
Well I actually think that the ammo choices are enough of a modification - I don't wanna modificate the modification.
Furthermore, same as before: Everything needs to be balanced. This balance (modifying a modification of a gun) will be hard to achieve as well as much calculating all the percentages and forces that are going on.
Pretty much work to do too if you ask me.

Offline Gambrill

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Re: Other than Airships
« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2013, 03:43:07 pm »
i see your point but im an Airforce engineer in real life and i see it happening all the time, this includes our files all the way up to our jets, (cannot say too much- all hush hush you know)

Offline Rainer Zu Fall

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Re: Other than Airships
« Reply #12 on: May 30, 2013, 03:51:43 pm »
Yeah but this is a game which needs to be programmed by people that are programming adventure mode too. Limited ressources and limited time. Plus, most of the people around here aren't in the army/navy/airforce, so ...

Still, your Jets don't need to be balanced. You want them to be better! This is exactly what we don't want in a game. Furthermore you don't have to calculate all the ... uh ... calculations that are necessary to make this game work. Physics apply to real life without them being calculated earlier, but this may slow down things a bit - especially servers and/or players machines.

Offline Gambrill

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Re: Other than Airships
« Reply #13 on: May 30, 2013, 03:58:30 pm »
Yeah but this is a game which needs to be programmed by people that are programming adventure mode too. Limited ressources and limited time. Plus, most of the people around here aren't in the army/navy/airforce, so ...

Still, your Jets don't need to be balanced. You want them to be better! This is exactly what we don't want in a game. Furthermore you don't have to calculate all the ... uh ... calculations that are necessary to make this game work. Physics apply to real life without them being calculated earlier, but this may slow down things a bit - especially servers and/or players machines.

i never took into account THAT! haha and there's me demanding the devs spend more time sweating trying to perfect something like this :') they'd never sleep again, haha sorry guys xD

Offline Khamael

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Re: Other than Airships
« Reply #14 on: May 31, 2013, 02:51:13 pm »
What if, in larger crew, there was another level of depth added to the hierarchy? A skyship would have multiple gunners and engineers, so what if they were each treated as their own crew, who answered to an Ordinance Officer and Chief Engineer, respectively, who then reported directly to the Captain?

This may be way too complicated for the game, but what do you think of twelve person crews?

Say there are three main parts of the ship. The bridge, the engine room(s) and the gunnery posts. With a full crew, you would have four gunners and four engineers, both in their respective areas, and then on the bridge you have four people with specific duties that aren't hands-on.

The Ordnance Officer's seat would have a whole bunch of dials that show the status of each weapon so that they know exactly how everyone is doing. They also have a speaking tube connected to a loudspeaker in the gunnery room (or whatever the word would be, I honestly don't know) which is the only way the bridge can communicate with the gunners. There'd also be a speaker connecting to a mouthpiece for the gunners to communicate back. He would have authority over the gunners and would tell them what to do.

Then there's the Chief Engineer. His seat would be basically the same, except obvious everything connects to the engine room. Again, there would be a speaking tube and speaker and he he would have authority over the engineers and would tell them what to do.

Then there's the Helmsman. He would have a good view of the outside and would basically be what the pilot is on the smaller ships that we have now. Probably wouldn't be altered much.

Lastly is the Captain. From his position on the bridge, he would have a general knowledge of everything going on on the ship, including the engines, guns, and exterior, but not as detailed as the other bridge officers. He would also have the ability to speak to the entire crew, however these one be one-way, unlike the Ordnance Officer and Chief Engineer. The Captain would have ultimate authority over everyone, though he would have to work with the other crew members due to his still limited knowledge of what is happening.

Again, this is probably far too complicated and might not be received well by the players. However, it would be very interesting and would force the crew to work as a tight-knit group.

EDIT: Something went wrong with the above quote and I've forgotten how to fix it. Please just ignore the error.

[Edit: fixed broken BBC ~Sgt. Spoon]
« Last Edit: May 31, 2013, 03:44:08 pm by Sgt. Spoon »