Author Topic: Fire! *Suggestion*  (Read 31824 times)

Offline -Muse- Cullen

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #45 on: May 23, 2013, 09:21:30 pm »
Cul is it really hard to implement? honest question again, I have ZERO programming /coding ability. But that doesnt seems that hard! Just simple maths!

It would be complicated to explain, but there is a huge amount of variables that would have to be factored into a math problem in order to find out where the fire moves, how quickly, and how it changes direction. Some maps have wind, so there would have to be an extra variable thrown in for that, as well. Basically, spreading fire based on wind would have to take into effect the speed of the ship, how its turning, how its changing altitude, and current wind on the map. Putting it bluntly like that doesn't make it seem difficult, but the developers have enough on their plates with Adventure Mode, and adding this dynamic fire movement would take a good amount of time.

Also CUL I have been trying to persuade you but you are almost as stubborn as a vrgin on prom night!!!! This fire spread idea brings flame weapons back without them being ridiculous OP!!!! OR am i missing something here? once again an honest question I'm trying to be very PC on the forums now. The fire spread makes flames deadly without making them stupid OP. at least IMO  would really love to hear what your take on that is.

If we were to ignore the wind aspect, a fire would spread to the entirety of the ship if not taken care of. The problem is that fire is usually taken care of right away, or it is left because of a more important problem. If the hull is being bombarded, an engineer is basically required to nurse it back to health. If a system were to catch on fire on the opposite side of the ship, the engineer has to decide whether it is worth fixing- hull damage, or a lost engine? Or hull damage, or a lost balloon? This makes the engineer make choices as to what is more important in the current situation. With spreading fire, there is nearly no choice in the matter- previously, it was between losing the hull or losing a system; now, it is between losing the hull or losing multiple systems. If fire could spread, it would make an ignited system have the same priority as the hull. I feel like there should be a hierarchy of components- the hull, the balloon, the guns / turning engines, and the main engine. Fire would ruin that hierarchy and place (imo) too high of a priority on the spreading fire. Giving the enemy the ability to place that priority on systems without destroying them doesn't sit well with me.

Offline Ofiach

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #46 on: May 23, 2013, 10:49:30 pm »
NO CUL NO DAMMIT!!!! It spread to a SINGLE random component within 5 meters. not every component within 5 meters!

Also yes he has to make a decision, and it brings a new meta into it, chem or extinguish!

Offline Nidh

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #47 on: May 23, 2013, 10:54:54 pm »
NO CUL NO DAMMIT!!!! It spread to a SINGLE random component within 5 meters. not every component within 5 meters!

Also yes he has to make a decision, and it brings a new meta into it, chem or extinguish!

Careful Ofi, I wouldn't post here until after tomorrow. But I agree that the spreading of flames is a good idea. It makes flames more of a threat rather than an annoyance. Right now flames are so low on the list of things to take care of that even if they spread to all components after a reasonable amount of time, I don't think it would be overpowered.

Offline Machiavelliest

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #48 on: May 23, 2013, 10:56:30 pm »
(for brevity) spreading flames would upset balance because it would make an extinguisher a mandatory item
Not really.  If I pop you in the balloon or hull with a flare gun and you don't have one, you're pretty much hosed, too.

My thought on the mechanics would be that, after a certain time (however many ms--we'll call it a 'tick'), a component on fire has a fire AoE based upon the number of stacks on the component.  I'm still on the fence about whether it would maintain any balance to have the component that's already on fire grow in size.

One other thing to consider: as more components catch fire, they are in turn heaping fire upon each other, so it could get wildly out of hand.

Offline Nidh

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #49 on: May 23, 2013, 11:00:27 pm »
Quote from: Machiavelliest
One other thing to consider: as more components catch fire, they are in turn heaping fire upon each other, so it could get wildly out of hand.

Isn't that what you would expect flames to do though? At the stacks generated by the flamethrower in the current patch, I still don't think flames would be as aggravating as they were before the nerf.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 11:02:28 pm by Nidh »

Offline Ofiach

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #50 on: May 24, 2013, 03:20:30 pm »
IMO flames right now suck. they need something else to really give them their own niche. That something else is this! Everything else stays the same but the fire can spread. I talked to my brother, And he said that adding this mechanic shouldn't be that hard because the dots are all there it just needs a new activator. Just his take on it.

Also yes if you sit in a flamethrower barrage you're going to get fires feeding on eachother, and you're gonna get roasted.

I'm not understanding the reason you believe chem spray wouldn't be effective anymore? Can you highlight that a little bit for me? 

Offline Audie Murphy

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2013, 02:44:20 pm »
IMO flames right now suck.

No, they do not. They're THE only multipurpose damage type. With fire you can burn down their balloon while also putting decent damage on their armor. And if their armor gets stripped, fire deals extra damage to the permahull. And since the particles pass through ships and damage anything they touch, you can already set multiple components on fire.

The idea of fire-spreading is a good one. I personally like it. However, I think that, priority-wise, it will have to go on the back burner, if Muse decides to implement it at all. The fire mechanics as they are now are pretty solid, and easily tweaked for balance by adjusting ignition rate, particle range and damage, etc.

It's not a bad idea, it's just not worth the time and effort it would take to implement. There's more important things for Muse to be working right now.

Offline Ofiach

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2013, 06:43:22 pm »
I'll say this as my main reasoning for why flames suck. A flamethrower, launching a full canister of flame juice at an enemy ship usually does nothing beyond annoy the engineers and cause some cussing. Crews spray down hull balloon and engines and then just wait for the Flamer to have to reload and make the guy suffer.

The only real reason anyone brings an extinguisher is because of flareguns. And even then alot of people still would rather have chem spray. If people are so unworried about stacks of fire and getting them out quickly, then there needs to be a penalty for letting a fire burn for a while. Intensifying or spreading.

As far as an order of priority I dunno, you don't see a flamethrower in any semi competitive games. Flares maybe but the flamethrower and the banshee are weapons that are only used when you need achievements for fire. They're pretty much left behind any other time. When two guns are left collecting cobwebs because "fires too easy to counter" I think new ideas would need to be something to look at right away. Thats just my two cents.

Offline Machiavelliest

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2013, 10:15:24 pm »
Flamethrowers are a novelty.  Just tap to repair then spray with an extinguisher/chem spray.  You've undone all the damage the fire did and put it out.  It really is an annoyance because it degrades performance of a component, but it's just that--annoying, not effective.  I have never seen one used against a remotely meta build and be successful.  I don't even use it on my Squid.

Offline Audie Murphy

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2013, 12:03:45 am »
I'll say this as my main reasoning for why flames suck. A flamethrower, launching a full canister of flame juice at an enemy ship usually does nothing beyond annoy the engineers and cause some cussing. Crews spray down hull balloon and engines and then just wait for the Flamer to have to reload and make the guy suffer.

ANY light weapon, by itself, is naught but an annoyance, unless the conditions are just right. If you're looking for a weapon that can overwhelm a chief engineer all by itself, you need a heavy weapon, not a light flamethrower.

It's cool that you're throwing your 2 cents out there. Keep doing that. However I'm simply not seeing the suck from the flamthrower at all. I just spent this afternoon crewing a Flamethrower/Carronade squid piloted by an experienced member of my clan (who plays competitively), and we wrecked the enemy over and over and over again.

Flamethrower/Carronade builds on squids are both quite effective and popular. I crewed one piloted by one of the devs. I myself have a flamethrower/artemis build on mine (which I've used to take down Galleons). I've also seen Flamethrower/Gatling utilized effectively. I've seen double flamer Pyras.

I agree that right now the meta is too restricted to Gat/Flak, and I think Muse is already working on that. We're looking at a new ship, and a new weapon coming out with the next patch. Don't worry, more options for your ships will open up as Muse continues to add content.

Keep flying, and keep getting more experience. One thing you'll learn is that you can win with almost any weapon combo if you and your crew communicate, work together, and performs your roles with competence.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2013, 12:07:47 am by Audie Murphy »

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2013, 12:19:49 am »
Just a note: based on the little I know of the Manta Ray so far, it'll probably still be a good while before it comes along. But the mine launcher... Now that'll be interesting.

Offline Ofiach

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2013, 12:29:05 am »
You can get away with alot of troll builds with a good captain and crew. Dual flamer ramamidions with moonshine have worked for me in the past. That doesn't mean it's viable in the slightest.

It just means you're having a little fun at the expense of inexperienced enemies. Seriously though the flamer doesn't even take down hull armor or the balloon well. A flare can cause some havoc but once you know the enemy has a flamer the engies prespray important parts and sit back and let the extra guns burn.

I saw flamers in one competitive match, honestly if they had had gatlings or flaks or even carronades they would have done alot more damage, as it stood they put 1-2 stacks on maybe 3 components and that was it. we even just let the sideguns burn to death because we were more worried about the hull and the other enemy ship.

If those fires could have spread they could have actually pulled the engie away from the hull/engines for a couple seconds. As it stood it just didn't matter, and we rebuilt once we finished that engagement.

Offline Machiavelliest

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2013, 07:32:57 am »
You can get away with alot of troll builds with a good captain and crew. Dual flamer ramamidions with moonshine have worked for me in the past. That doesn't mean it's viable in the slightest.
Carronade/flame is a troll build.  I used to use it until it took me 5 minutes (yes, I timed) and four popped balloons of a Spire pogo-ing on the ground to kill it.  In any level of competitive play, it's totally unviable.

Offline Captain Smollett

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2013, 03:20:40 pm »
Hold onto these thoughts guys. 

Based on Muse comments I'm expecting to see a fire buff within the first two weeks of June that should make these weapons viable again. 

There's obviously a good amount of tweaking to do with them but I believe the process has already started.

Offline Audie Murphy

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #59 on: May 29, 2013, 12:10:50 pm »
Hold onto these thoughts guys. 

Based on Muse comments I'm expecting to see a fire buff within the first two weeks of June that should make these weapons viable again. 

There's obviously a good amount of tweaking to do with them but I believe the process has already started.

While I don't think that fire is as weak as is implied by others on this thread, I will welcome to the buff to fire damage. More incentives for brawling builds over sniping builds.