Author Topic: Fire! *Suggestion*  (Read 10984 times)

Offline TehPao

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #30 on: May 23, 2013, 05:43:53 pm »
The OP's reasoning for why tar should be flammable was simply that -Tar is flammable-, so I'm not sure what else to say. When Zill said that tar was strong enough right now, OP replied that 'It'll remove tar effects, but light the thing on fire anyway. That's not really a counterpoint to the argument, in my opinion. Its really strong right now. Making it even more strong would make it an almost uncounterable full disable.

Yes. Tar is flammable.
Yes. Once the tarred part ignites, it will remove the tar effect, but it will catch on fire, thus furthering the damage.
*Tar damages Gun*
*Player 1 Ignites Gun on fire*
*Gun takes fire damage*

My only other problem off the top of my head is that every system is reachable within a few seconds of running, so... lighting one thing on fire would just light everything else on fire after that X seconds. Engines are all grouped together, same with guns.

Play a game on a Pyramidion, and look at the balloon when it catches on fire. Half the time, the balloon stays on fire (unless someone yells it out). Using fire to spread out is a good strategy for the fire ship, and it also makes communication vital for the ship that is on fire.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 05:45:36 pm by TehPao »

Offline Ofiach

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2013, 05:53:30 pm »
Cul thats the point!!! Maybe I'm not being clear here. I will attempt to show specific examples.

It brings new guns to the forefront of strategic gameplay! The banshee now has a real role as a harassment weapon! the flamethrower gets its power back because the components will ignite eachother! the flare... well the flare might just be a tad OP with this system but hey, tweak it!

Offline -Muse- Cullen

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2013, 06:20:51 pm »
The OP's reasoning for why tar should be flammable was simply that -Tar is flammable-, so I'm not sure what else to say. When Zill said that tar was strong enough right now, OP replied that 'It'll remove tar effects, but light the thing on fire anyway. That's not really a counterpoint to the argument, in my opinion. Its really strong right now. Making it even more strong would make it an almost uncounterable full disable.

Yes. Tar is flammable.
Yes. Once the tarred part ignites, it will remove the tar effect, but it will catch on fire, thus furthering the damage.
*Tar damages Gun*
*Player 1 Ignites Gun on fire*
*Gun takes fire damage*

My only other problem off the top of my head is that every system is reachable within a few seconds of running, so... lighting one thing on fire would just light everything else on fire after that X seconds. Engines are all grouped together, same with guns.

Play a game on a Pyramidion, and look at the balloon when it catches on fire. Half the time, the balloon stays on fire (unless someone yells it out). Using fire to spread out is a good strategy for the fire ship, and it also makes communication vital for the ship that is on fire.

Once again, I have to ask for you to give better reasoning as to why flammable smoke from the tar barrel should be included. Tar is put into the engines and it makes smog. The simple reasoning that the cloud it is flammable is incorrect, because it is smoky fog. Give an reason why the tar needs to be buffed to include flammability. Everything that I pointed out in that first post, you ignored and gave me the same exact answer that you gave to Zill.

And it seems like you want the fire to spread simply as a punishment for people who don't understand the importance of extinguishing flames... i.e. newer players. From a realistic perspective, since it seems like you enjoy that side of things, the balloon component is a metalic pump sitting on a metal grate suspended away from all other systems- how it could spread is beyond me- unless it spreads via the actual balloon. If it did, then that would mean it ignites everything, because the balloon is directly connected to all edges of the ship, which is where the engines, guns, and hull all touch.

Offline -Muse- Cullen

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #33 on: May 23, 2013, 06:29:17 pm »
Cul thats the point!!! Maybe I'm not being clear here. I will attempt to show specific examples.

It brings new guns to the forefront of strategic gameplay! The banshee now has a real role as a harassment weapon! the flamethrower gets its power back because the components will ignite eachother! the flare... well the flare might just be a tad OP with this system but hey, tweak it!

The banshee is a rare gun that feels like it benefits from all ammo types- it does shatter damage, explosive damage, as well as has a chance to ignite systems on fire. Shatter damages guns and engines, and fire, at 8 stacks, disables a gun. This weapon is very useful as a disabler when used correctly. Sadly, people don't notice the shatter damage on it and instead aim for the hull, which leads people to believe that it isn't very effective.

While I could go on, I feel that it wouldn't matter. I am firm in my belief that adding all of these extra fire mechanics would make the game turn into Flames of Icarus. Icarus' wings melted off / lit on fire because he flew too close to the sun. If we add these mechanics, there'll be too much fire that the same will happen to engineers who get overwhelmed with an already difficult job.

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2013, 06:39:10 pm »
The banshee only does explosive, actually. Not shatter.

Offline -Muse- Cullen

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2013, 06:45:26 pm »
The banshee only does explosive, actually. Not shatter.
Updating the wiki.

Offline Ofiach

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2013, 06:48:20 pm »
it does shatter?! Hell i thought it was explosive/fire chance!

But Cul that is my main point!!! fire spreading could turn useless guns.. aka banshee into team weapons of mass pwnage!

Also whats wrong with fire!?!?!?!? were on wooden ships FFS! fire was a killer on the sea if it was let alone! why shouldn't it be a killer in the air!


Offline -Muse- Cullen

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2013, 06:56:24 pm »
it does shatter?! Hell i thought it was explosive/fire chance!

But Cul that is my main point!!! fire spreading could turn useless guns.. aka banshee into team weapons of mass pwnage!

Also whats wrong with fire!?!?!?!? were on wooden ships FFS! fire was a killer on the sea if it was let alone! why shouldn't it be a killer in the air!
A weapon should be buffed to the point where it can be countered, but still effective when used intelligently and correctly. Making fire spread makes a team without an extinguisher completely out of luck. While it should be effective, making fire spread would make it completely shut those types of ships out- more charges on fire doesn't mean more damage over time. Weapons that do fire damage aren't useless, but they do need a buff. That's why I am all for the idea of fire increasing stacks over time.

Through all of this discussion, I don't think that I know why you want fire to spread. Why is that?

Offline Ofiach

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2013, 06:58:56 pm »
I want it to spread because it makes fire a real killer again! instead of a ... well whatever somethings on fire dont worry about it. Also chem spray can deal with alot of fire still! TEN seconds is a long time to leave a fire burning without putting it out!

If my crew left a fire burning that long I would be cussing them out for being achievement farming...... bad people.

Offline TehPao

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #39 on: May 23, 2013, 07:01:50 pm »

Once again, I have to ask for you to give better reasoning as to why flammable smoke from the tar barrel should be included. Tar is put into the engines and it makes smog. The simple reasoning that the cloud it is flammable is incorrect, because it is smoky fog. Give an reason why the tar needs to be buffed to include flammability. Everything that I pointed out in that first post, you ignored and gave me the same exact answer that you gave to Zill.

And it seems like you want the fire to spread simply as a punishment for people who don't understand the importance of extinguishing flames... i.e. newer players. From a realistic perspective, since it seems like you enjoy that side of things, the balloon component is a metalic pump sitting on a metal grate suspended away from all other systems- how it could spread is beyond me- unless it spreads via the actual balloon. If it did, then that would mean it ignites everything, because the balloon is directly connected to all edges of the ship, which is where the engines, guns, and hull all touch.

Yes, I've already been proven wrong on the tar, because in the description of the Tar Barrel, it says smog. I didn't need to give you anything new.
Punishment for people who don't understand the importance of extinguishing flames? Isn't there already punishment for players having to deal with fire?
Realism isn't necessarily my goal, by the way. It's a video game, and I'm only making suggestions. You, as a CA, need to realize that I'm only trying to better the game (this may or may not better the game, but you need to review this).
Yes, the pipes and whatnot would cause mass destruction for ships being caught on fire. Hah. May as well recognize this before I'm told that I ignored it. Back on topic.
It isn't punishment. It's strategy. Having extinguishers is usually required by engineers, anyway. They should deal with the problem before it gets bigger. And it only takes on a portion of the ship, since it's only a few meters from each part. The Pyra's balloon/guns won't reach down the the hull, the back of the junker is isolated from the rest of the ship, etc., for other ships.


Through all of this discussion, I don't think that I know why you want fire to spread. Why is that?

Why? I dunno, I was out of it last night and thought it would be a good idea. Then more thoughts came with how far it should reach, and how much fire stacks it should take.
I didn't know I was required to have an idea for it. I just did. Imagination?

Fire spreads, no? I'm from Oklahoma. My house has been so, so very close to being turned into ashes. I feel bad for the dozens of homes around me that turned to dust. That fire spreads due to wind. It was a WINDY day that day, and that fire was going super fast. The people in California recently had fires. It was a VERY windy day there, too.
Now, with that said, we're on an airship. We're dealing with wind. Fire spreads on wind. Which gives me a new idea. Fire should work its way to wherever the wind is traveling (if you're speeding forward, fire spreads 5m to the back, vice versa for reversing) for 5 meters, or whatever a suitable number is.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 07:16:10 pm by TehPao »

Offline -Muse- Cullen

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2013, 08:20:10 pm »
Give an reason why the tar needs to be buffed to include flammability.
I didn't need to give you anything new.
...Alright then. I can't comment any further on this, then.

Realism isn't necessarily my goal, by the way. It's a video game, and I'm only making suggestions. You, as a CA, need to realize that I'm only trying to better the game (this may or may not better the game, but you need to review this).
Me, as a CA, understands that you are only trying to better the game. That is why I am having this discussion with you instead of simply ignoring it. Its an interesting topic, but I want you to really persuade me as to why it should be included. I've given my sides of the story with backup and such, but you guys aren't giving me much to reply to beyond it being a fun mechanic, it would buff fire, and it being realistic.

Through all of this discussion, I don't think that I know why you want fire to spread. Why is that?

Why? I dunno, I was out of it last night and thought it would be a good idea. Then more thoughts came with how far it should reach, and how much fire stacks it should take.
I didn't know I was required to have an idea for it. I just did. Imagination?
Fire spreads, no? -snip-
Its good to post ideas and things like this, don't think I'm saying not to! Its just that, when a debate comes up, both sides should have reasonings ready. I agree that fire spreads, but the whole wind aspect, and direction of fire movement, would be difficult to include in the game, that's for sure. Some maps have wind, some don't, etc etc etc.. I think that the discussion should be as to why the spreading mechanic should be included in general, instead of how it should work. If it were to be included, I can safely say that the whole wind aspect wouldn't accompany it, just because that's a lot of variables to work with.

Offline TehPao

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2013, 08:25:15 pm »
Yes, with the whole wind being programmed in, would basically require a kickstarter. Reversing would mean flames go forward, going forward would mean flames go back. I can't give much more than that (if wind isn't included).
I wasn't necessarily asking for wind, was just saying the mechanics of it.
It's been fun chatting, but I'm not going to get support from this. I'm glad you are trying to help. Maybe a dev will see it and give him/her inspiration for something down the line.

Offline Ofiach

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #42 on: May 23, 2013, 08:26:48 pm »
Cul is it really hard to implement? honest question again, I have ZERO programming /coding ability. But that doesnt seems that hard! Just simple maths!

Also CUL I have been trying to persuade you but you are almost as stubborn as a vrgin on prom night!!!! This fire spread idea brings flame weapons back without them being ridiculous OP!!!! OR am i missing something here? once again an honest question I'm trying to be very PC on the forums now. The fire spread makes flames deadly without making them stupid OP. at least IMO  would really love to hear what your take on that is.

TehPao you noob stop cutting in on my replies with your edits XD.

Offline Ofiach

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #43 on: May 23, 2013, 08:29:46 pm »
Sorry i probably deserve a warning for this BUT this is what CA's should do!!!!! he has a fucking opinion and is willing to explain it without being a snide asshole! This is what we want!

Offline TehPao

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Re: Fire! *Suggestion*
« Reply #44 on: May 23, 2013, 08:31:36 pm »
Agreed. I'm glad Cul came in to change my opinion on certain areas. I like the discussions on here, I just don't like that there isn't anyone else.