Gunner vs. Buff Engi on Heavy Carronade

[The Cunning Linquist]

Is a gunner still necessary on a blenderfish, or is the heavy carronade now just another buff-engi gun?

Before the 1.4.5 patch, lochnagar was almost necessary on a heavy carronade so a gunner was a must.  With loch now nonviable on the carronade though, is taking a gunner really that helpful?  With a gunner, you obviously gain access to the two additional ammo types past charged and gunner stamina.  So therein lies two questions:

          1.  Are the additional ammo types helpful? 

          2.  Is gunner stamina helpful?

For the first question, I can see situations where heavy, incendiary, and heatsink all have their uses, but I'm not sure the advantages justify taking a gunner over an engi with charged.  For the second, I believe only the effects of stamina on vertical arcs are relevant (reload speed and horizontal arcs probably don't matter much).  However, if I'm understanding the wiki correctly, stamina adds +40% to vertical arcs, which is only an additional 4 degrees down and 8 degrees up (arcs are 10 down and 20 up initially).  These could be relevant for sure - rising into the face of a hwachafish for example - but how relevant?

As for taking a buff engi, there are two additional questions about benefits:

          3.  Is the effect of buffing the carronade relevant?

          4.  Do the added repair tools make a difference?

Charged already breaks a balloon in one clip, so does applying a buff to it really make that much of a difference?  It will obviously contribute towards armor break, but so does the ground so maybe that's not relevant.  Repair tools may or may not make a noticeable difference, that's past my predictive abilities.

Anyways, I'm caught somewhere in the middle of these two alternatives so I would really appreciate some community input.  Thanks in advance,

 - Cunning

[Jamini]

Gunner stamina alone normally makes it worthwhile to have them on heavy guns, due to reload times. The ability to bring incendiary (to help keep the bloon down) and Heatsink (to go for extra disables per clip) is also useful. The third engineer's use varies depending on what the situation is.

The main advantage of a three-engineer crew is that you can have two repair engineers and a buff engineer.

-In a purely tanking scenario, two spanner-mallet engineerscan keep a ship from going down a little longer.
-In a scenario with a lot of fire, a third person who can suppress fires is very useful

-In a normal scenario, or one where you have an advantage, the gunner can reload much faster and still get a buff from your buff engie.
-The gunner is more versatile in what he can fire and how he can fire (So even when both engineers are repairing, he can use a secondary gun at optimum, assuming he has one or more viable ammo types for it)
-Gunners can give better arcs, including a bifecta on the goldfish.

So really, if you are doing well a gunner is a better choice. In a close or losing match, the extra repairs can save you.

[DrTentacles]

There is no reason to take a gunner anymore. Lochnagar required stamina to aim quickly. Now that it is no longer viable, the arc advantage is negligible next to the DPS of Charged+Buff.

There is also very little reason to take a blenderfish anymore.

[BlackenedPies]

The advantage of gunner is the extra arcs: 4 degrees down, 8 degrees up, and 20 degrees to the sides. Use stamina for reloads at range and when you don't need it for arcs. While incendiary is a good ammo in general on carro due to the 20 buckshot chances to start fire per shot, it shouldn't be used against balloons. There's no point in putting fire on a balloon when it's gonna break anyways, and incendiary shoots as slow as charged (-30% ROF). Incendiary can be good against armor/components, but charged is generally better

If you're confident about arcs then buff engi is the best choice. Spanner mallet buff gives you max repair on the front and hull. The mallet can save your gun against shatter weapons, and during reload they can tap the hull while the main engi focuses on engines. The effects of a buff engi on a fish are: starting combat with more ship buffs, higher dps and guaranteed heavy clip pops, better gun and hull repairs, more repair time for the main engi and higher survivability. If you and your crew are coordinated you can switch off the engi on the gun during combat in order to get ship rebuffs. If you want max close range dps you could have an engi bring heavy clip to preload at longer range and have the gungi switch to their charged for close

Triple engi ships are more complex but rewarding when done right. Gunners were used on Hcarro pre-stamina in competitive even when they were literally useless, but now with stamina and the Hcarro nerf I recommend most players use gunners. If you're confident with handling a fish try a buff engi

[ZnC]

This thread again; it's been a while though. Gonna keep it short this time.

Gunner
-Stamina
-Charged + Incendiary rotation

Gun-gineer
-Mallet Spanner
-Better rebuild/repair
-Charged + Buff

Buff-gineer
-Wrench Buff
-Firefighting
-Charged + Buff

Many players underestimate how devastating Incendiary Carronade is on the enemy ship, especially when used with Charged. On a Goldfish I have a buff-gineer front, so the choice is either Gunner or Gun-gineer. Set it up however you prefer, I always go gunner though.

[Solidusbucket]

One of the better methods is to have one engineer on the balloon, one engineer on armor, and one engineer on turn engines. Once you get the ship lined up the captain jumps off the helm and fires. It is a high risk high reward setup but keeps the ship fully repaired.

[Kamoba]

One of the better methods is to have one engineer on the balloon, one engineer on armor, and one engineer on turn engines. Once you get the ship lined up the captain jumps off the helm and fires. It is a high risk high reward setup but keeps the ship fully repaired.

Hehehe. Gotta love AFD.

[The Cunning Linquist]

This thread again; it's been a while though. Gonna keep it short this time.

With the recent loch changes I thought this topic was worth discussing again.

Use stamina for reloads at range and when you don't need it for arcs.

Could you explain a little more of what you mean with this thought?

If you're confident about arcs then buff engi is the best choice. Spanner mallet buff gives you max repair on the front and hull... you could have an engi bring heavy clip to preload at longer range and have the gungi switch to their charged for close

This is definitely the way I'm leaning right now.  If nothing else it's always good to force the crew to practice higher levels of coordination, but I really like the versatility it offers.  Unlike Doc, I still have a reason to run blenderfish - it's hella fun. 

[DrTentacles]

It used to be my favorite ship. It's still playable in pubs, but it's useless in competitive. And I just have no desire to play it in pubs--the constant nerfs on a build that was never meta has worn me down.

[Richard LeMoon]

Goldfish should have an automatic 10% increase in front gun arcs.

More Engineers are better on Blender.

Ban the buff gun DPS increase.

[BlackenedPies]

Use stamina for reloads at range and when you don't need it for arcs.

Could you explain a little more of what you mean with this thought?

Gunner stamina regens the slowest of all stamina at 60 seconds and it takes 9.32 seconds to regen each second of stamina. If you use half of your stamina on a reload you've reduced the reload by 11%, but that takes 30.3 seconds to recharge. The most important use is arcs so you don't not have it when you need it. It's better to have a slightly slower reload than not being able to shoot (or taking longer to shoot)

A good rule of thumb for guns is using stamina for reloads at range because you'll less likely need arcs. It's a judgement call but for Hcarro you can start with using half stamina after the first clip and deciding from there

Many players underestimate how devastating Incendiary Carronade is on the enemy ship, especially when used with Charged.

I said that it's useless against balloon. If you put both incendiary shots into their balloon then you lose all benefits. If you get a shot into their armor then that's 8 stacks of fire which can be disruptive, but it takes between 4.8 and 6.7 seconds (depending on damage carryover and assuming none is extinguished) for the fire to deal the damage lost if you were using charged. If they have an extinguisher then damage is minimal and with chem you can't use incendiary for the next 25 seconds. If you don't pop their balloon on the first shot and still put the other shot into their armor then it buys them time and their balloon is chemed before breaking. It's not bad but it's certainly not devastating against an experienced opponent. Its use is too limited to recommend over heatsink as a main ammo, but it's the best secondary Hcarro ammo

[BobDoleReigns]

Meh... I love the blender in pubs but I wouldn't dare run a triple engy need the stamina arc too much... as for the rest of the crew ideally I'd only bring one engy with an extinguisher and the other buff (obviously not in the enemy is a flamer) as the fish is small and eas. For the solo extinguisher guy to cover and the you've got the buff to give you the best of both worlds... I mean buffig the gun is low priority but buffed balloon and engines make a world of difference getting in position and dodging scary stuff... of course the whole blender is situational and supporty but given the right crew (funnily my problem seems to be  contrary to every other ship in low level gunners wont shoot the damn gun) I'd say its not uncommon for a blender to carry pub matches