Author Topic: Is GoI Unfinished?  (Read 12346 times)

Offline WickedSpades

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Is GoI Unfinished?
« on: June 03, 2013, 10:44:07 pm »
Hola,

After playing this game for a couple of days I've had a couple arguments with my friends who I've gotten to try this out but were unsatisfied with their experience. Their reasons being is that the game feels incomplete in the sense that it doesn't have the right amount of content to make them feel that the $20 price tag is fulfilling. Me being a fan of the game, I obviously threw in my arguments that you guys at Muse are constantly adding new content, tweaking issues, etc. and that the game is made by an indie developer who got most of their funding being Kickstarted. Irregardless of my argument, my points were diminished at the point of, simply, it feels unfinished. I wanted to make this post to, hopefully, get it read by someone at Muse that'll take my ideas into consideration for the game so that I can eventually pull my friends into enjoying this game as much as I do:

Competition in Games

GoI is an awesome casual experience. By this I mean; that's literally all it feels like - a casual experience. One issue that I feel doesn't help pull in a big part of the demographics in gaming is the competitive edge this game has the potential of having. I'm not saying to take away all that makes this a casual experience but it would help encourage a bigger group of players as well as give the game a much larger span of longevity. So what can we do?

1.) Ranks - The idea of ranks that you guys have in this game is common, however it doesn't paint a clear path for a player to follow. There should be some sort of counter for the ranks and how to progress in the game. This allows players to gauge where they're at with each rank and how to achieve each one; always giving them something to work towards. I'm assuming the position titles have something to do with these ranks as well?

2.) Player Scores - Creating score sheets in game when players access the player list via [TAB], will allow people to be able to see each players score which is calculated off their work they've done during that match. This is obviously calculated by kill shots, assist shots, and rated by the most important work from their particular occupation they've done (ie: An engineer repairs a broken engine +2, repair hull +1, etc.) based on its importance. This allows people to see what their crew members have done to help the team as well as give that competitive level of play for people to get the highest scores in a match.

3.) Accolades - Accolades are awesome for in-match achievements players can get and add to an accolade scrapbook in their player sheets. These can range from crew/team MVP to Highest Accuracy, Best Gunner, Engineer, Pilot, etc. based on their score sheets in the match.

4.) Leaderboards - These are the most legendary way for players to compete as the best in games. It adds a level of competition while not getting in the way of the casual playing experience of other players.

Social Experience

Obviously GoI has the basic structure of a solid social experience but it isn't quite fitting the bill as far as what it could become. By this I mean, it doesn't cater to party sessions, guilds or the like which can all help build a stronger and more intimate social life in GoI. What can we do?

1.) Parties - Allowing players the options of starting parties (you could call them gangs, even) will allow them to coexist with their friends and join games on the fly much easier than finding games where they have to look for crews with enough open slots for the friends they have.

2.) Guilds - Guilds/factions/clans are essential in any multiplayer world and are a great way to expand the social experience of players. This can also be a good way for Muse to keep some income going! Let's say we can start our own clan for $1, the clan leader can make their own 3-4 letter clan tag which will appear in brackets next to players names and they have their own clan chat, logo, and more (ideas are there for the developers). Logos would be a fantastic way to add customization to your ships like having flags off the masts with the clan's logo it also gives players an opportunity to create families within GoI strengthening the social core of the world.

Up The Ante

What if we made Guns of Icarus... Faster? Hang on, bear with me! Let's say, like the guns, we have tiers of ships: light, medium and heavy all with their own attributes. In a sense, that's already present in GoI but what if we take away the concept of only 4-player ships? What if there were additional slots of 3, 2 and 1-man ships all with their own roles? Let's say we have a single-man plane that goes around harassing the larger ships? They are vulnerable to heavy attacks and can't launch heavy assaults of their own, but they could take out gun decks to allow the larger ships to come in for the kill? Not only can we have co-op on the decks of each ship but we can take it to the next level with the role of your team and the ships captains choose as well.



Like I said, I love the game, seriously - it's fantastic but there's always room for more and this game has tons of potential for being an even more massive game. I don't want to say what timeline Muse should follow but I think they should really think about perfecting the multiplayer experience of this game to draw the attention of even more players. I swear, if you present half these ideas with the way you guys develop and throw them on Kickstarter for a round 3, you'll get the funding for sure as myself as one of your backers.

Keep up the good work guys, I hope you guys read this and find some of my ideas interesting and thanks for the great game!

Offline dragonmere

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Re: Is GoI Unfinished?
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2013, 12:19:21 am »
I can assure you that this game is not entirely casual, and some players take it very seriously. I'm sure you will run into plenty of intense games if you continue to play. If you're looking to get into more hard-core play or the competitive scene, I would suggest joining a clan. There are plenty of clans. The Gentlemen and The Ducks are probably the largest two. Personally I am with The Cohort. And a lot of what you suggested is hopefully already on the way.

There are very prevalent rumors of a clan system and a party system being included in the next content patch, along with a new weapon and a new ship. These are all rumors, however, at this point. If not the next patch, the development team is almost definitely working on these system already.

There is a clear way to gauge what you need to do to level up. On the main menu, at the top left, click the "progress" tab. You level up by gaining achievements. You can see the progress to the next level in each class and the individual achievements you need under that tab. There are plenty of posts on these boards about achievements and the nature of leveling in general. Check out one of those if you'd like to get in on the discussion.

As far as leader boards, there is a group of players working together with the community right now on a ranking system for teams/clans. There are already a few threads discussing this as well. Potentially, some day, SOMETHING of that nature could be directly added into the game, but for now we are relying on the community to establish the competitive scene. There are several player organized tournaments already. The community is doing a good job of handing this, as it's a fairly large job. This allows the development team to focus on game balance, adding new content, and working on the upcoming expansion.

For individual player scores, accolades, and ships containing less than 4 players, I don't really think this will be happening. GoIO is a TEAM game. Putting any more emphasis on individual players than the levels, or letting players go solo is against the true nature of this game. You can already view some stats under the "progress" tab, but making that information public and ranked could cause players to abandon team-play in order to get their personal stats up. Player-driven bi-planes was one of the unreached stretch goals for the upcoming Adventure Mode, so that's not entirely out of the question for the distant future, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Personally, I cannot wait for the clan and party system. Hope the rumors are true, and the patch is on it's way soon!
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 12:44:16 am by dragonmere »

Offline Mkah Mvet

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Re: Is GoI Unfinished?
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2013, 12:38:33 am »
I'm not a fan of leaderboards.  Once you get leaderboards, you get people farming their rankings by only fighting against easy crews, making the game less fun for new people, making less players, making a doomed game.

Offline Squidslinger Gilder

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Re: Is GoI Unfinished?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2013, 02:18:20 am »
Leader boards also promote cheaters hacking scores.

As the other post says there is a competitive side. Clans and guilds do exist. You need to browse the forums here more. They are not hard to find. If there was no competitive players I would have left long ago. Casual games are fine for a few but there is a hunger in the community for more. Joining a team or forming one and then entering the tournaments will expose you to a new world in this game. You start to play people who put up a fight and you then truly begin to enjoy the game.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2013, 02:19:51 am by Gilder »

Offline N-Sunderland

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Re: Is GoI Unfinished?
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2013, 07:46:14 am »
Quote
There are very prevalent rumors of a clan system and a party system being included in the next content patch, along with a new weapon and a new ship. These are all rumors, however, at this point. If not the next patch, the development team is almost definitely working on these system already.

No, they're not rumours at all. Muse has stated on multiple occasions that they're coming in the next feature patch (except the Manta Ray).

Offline Ofiach

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Re: Is GoI Unfinished?
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2013, 08:43:40 am »
The game is unfinished until this ship is flying around and smashing faces.

Right no idea how it turned into the tiny version but whatever. That ship. Down there.

Offline -Muse- Cullen

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Re: Is GoI Unfinished?
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2013, 10:07:29 am »
For individual player scores, accolades, and ships containing less than 4 players, I don't really think this will be happening. GoIO is a TEAM game. Putting any more emphasis on individual players than the levels, or letting players go solo is against the true nature of this game. You can already view some stats under the "progress" tab, but making that information public and ranked could cause players to abandon team-play in order to get their personal stats up. Player-driven bi-planes was one of the unreached stretch goals for the upcoming Adventure Mode, so that's not entirely out of the question for the distant future, but I wouldn't hold my breath.
No, they're not rumours at all. Muse has stated on multiple occasions that they're coming in the next feature patch (except the Manta Ray).
I have the same thoughts as these. Parties and in-game clans would be really interesting if the team as a whole got a rank or score. For the most part, though, the game is all for jolly co-operation, so personal things wouldn't be included.

My suggestion to you is to chat with anyone on this board to join a clan. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/board,9.0.html. Each clan has a few competitive teams, and would love to keep expanding by doing inter-clan skirmishes for practice.

The competitive scene does exist, and gets livestreamed at http://www.twitch.tv/qwerty2jam. A lot of new tournament ideas are starting to show up, so definitely don't be disheartened if you think that the game is too casual- opportunities are around and more are surfacing.

Offline Rainer Zu Fall

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Re: Is GoI Unfinished?
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2013, 11:14:48 am »
For individual player scores, accolades, and ships containing less than 4 players, I don't really think this will be happening. GoIO is a TEAM game. Putting any more emphasis on individual players than the levels, or letting players go solo is against the true nature of this game. You can already view some stats under the "progress" tab, but making that information public and ranked could cause players to abandon team-play in order to get their personal stats up.

I totally agree to that statement. Look at most FPS games like...I don't know, Counter Strike or Call of Duty or Americas Army or whatever you can imagine. People there aren't playing as a team, although they could be so much better (and winning the matches). Because of these scoreboards and points given for actions it turns out they even don't care if teammates die or they lose - they just want a good score.
Similar to this, I think in GoIO it could lead to engineers not repairing what is actually needed but running around the ship, farming most points, no matter if the team wins or loses that way. There's for example plenty of captains out there that just rush around, not listening to your advices, because they're already so used to this kind of playing (playing just for themselves). That's not what this game is about. I don't know if encouraging that might help solve this situation.

Offline Mattilald Anguisad

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Re: Is GoI Unfinished?
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2013, 01:01:10 pm »
Parties, and clan tags are were allready stated as planned (allong with improved chat system). With development of Adventure mode, we'll eventually see (hpefully - it was one of the unreached strech goals) pilotable bi-planes.

Offline Varstahl

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Re: Is GoI Unfinished?
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2013, 01:54:59 pm »
I'm fairly new to the game, bought it with the AM kickstarter, but given the discussion I thought I'd throw in my PoV on the subject at hand, given I've played in and managed professional and non professional clans of various size.

1.) Ranks - There should be some sort of counter for the ranks and how to progress in the game.

The "Progress" is well explained and detailed in the "Progress" tab, with each class having its own paths. The multi-progress, opposed to a streamlined one like you suggest, is even more optimal, because it doesn't force the player to stick with doing one thing and one thing only, potentially ruining his own team and crew. And if anybody has ever leveled up classes in, say, Modern Warfare, will perfectly know what that does mean in a cooperative environment.

2.) Player Scores - This is obviously calculated by kill shots, assist shots, and rated by the most important work from their particular occupation they've done (ie: An engineer repairs a broken engine +2, repair hull +1, etc.) based on its importance.

This brings a serious problem to the philosophy of this game. You don't count, anyone doesn't count, only your team does. You only win if your team wins, not if you have more points than anyone else combined. This is why, imo, they planned to not show which crew has taken what points. What if players then start, just like they always do in typical multiplayer games, to do what they think is best to achieve the "best score" in the game instead of winning? Ever played FPS? How many times you've seen, during a strategy type match, the player with the top score calling his team names because they "couldn't keep up" with his greatness? I did, one too many times.

4.) Leaderboards - These are the most legendary way for players to compete as the best in games. It adds a level of competition while not getting in the way of the casual playing experience of other players.

This is the best way to utterly destroy the game. Time and time again it has been shown that public leaderboards with names bring nothing but grief to the general gameplay. Generally speaking, the first thing that popup on leaderboards are hackers, be it the top FPS of the time or that crappy game on facebook. All the time, all the year around.

Secondly it just does not fit a game meant to be cooperative in nature. What good does being the top player on a leaderboard if your team constantly loses because instead of the "killing" you should have done the "repairing" but you just needed that one more kill that... well, you've got the point.

If need be, there's another type of leaderboards that do not have these problems, and is the histogram one, where you "compete" (privately) against a pool of results. But you, and only you, can know if you have done better or worse than other players. Put names anywhere on a list and players will go crazy fighting, even using every single glitch of the game to receive the "gratification" of the top positions.

What if there were additional slots of 3, 2 and 1-man ships all with their own roles?

IMVHO, Guns of Icarus is not, and should never be, a lone wolf game. Aside the fact I can't even conceive a ship with less than 3 players, how would the "1-man" ship go around, repair itself and do damage?

To the contrary, although I do not know if feasible, I would like the opposite. Huge flying giants of 6-8 players each, but again not to be mixed with 4 players ones. Because a different crew size composition can make or break the game dynamics.


I should add that I also do not like the path a lot of FPS games took/are taking. Being of the cooperative type I feel pity when players start doing silly things because they "have to level up skills" instead of, say, capturing flags. And the balance and philosophy of GoI are what really struck me. Bringing it to the path of demise seems stupid. And sad. Very sad.

My 5 cents.

Offline Echoez

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Re: Is GoI Unfinished?
« Reply #10 on: June 04, 2013, 03:47:58 pm »
Personal score and ELO ala' League of Legends style scores should never be part of this game for obvious reasons, they attract a bad type of community that we don't want I'd like to assume at least.

1-person driven bi-planes are again kinda against the nature of the Skirmish mode GoI, cause they do not promote teamwork.

As for any kinda of score or leaderboard, if they would be implemented, I'd say make 'em like League of Legends Ranked teams scores, where you assemble a team 'clan' or something and when your clan members win games against other clans, your clans gets some score. That way at least it promotes teamwork within' a clan without impacting normal games with selfish score-whore players.

Offline Varstahl

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Re: Is GoI Unfinished?
« Reply #11 on: June 04, 2013, 03:52:17 pm »
As for any kinda of score or leaderboard, if they would be implemented, I'd say make 'em like League of Legends Ranked teams scores, where you assemble a team 'clan' or something and when your clan members win games against other clans, your clans gets some score. That way at least it promotes teamwork within' a clan without impacting normal games with selfish score-whore players.

I couldn't agree more to this.