Author Topic: Specific Demolition ships for Defense mode  (Read 12221 times)

Offline Daft Loon

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Specific Demolition ships for Defense mode
« on: November 13, 2016, 01:26:58 am »
Severely nerf the damage of AI ships and planes vs the base and gun emplacements in defense mode and make them more biased towards attacking player ships.

Designate a minority of the attackers as demolition ships that do regular/increased damage to the guns and the base, these ships exclusively target the gun towers (in their originating lane) and then the base. They should be marked in some way to distinguish them, probably a different map icon, a name designation like the convoy ships get and something directly visible.

Thoughts?

Offline Naoura

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Re: Specific Demolition ships for Defense mode
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2016, 01:37:18 am »
Fire ships. Just make fire ships.

A fire ship, for those that don't know, is a ship that is, well, abandoned and set to the torch, often packed with explosives, and sent towards the enemy. In effect, suiciders.

Just have those. The rest of the ships are there to support the fire ships, so that they can do damage to the base. Make a lot of them, so that you can't simply cheese the fight, but make them the only thing capable of destroying the base.

Either that or increase the number of defenses you have surrounding the base. Perhaps the armored walls, or else increasing the number of gun emplacements.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Specific Demolition ships for Defense mode
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2016, 01:49:39 am »
Yes, please. Make these 'bomb ships'. Then we can add them to Skirmish in the new PAYLOAD mode.

Offline GurasOguras

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Re: Specific Demolition ships for Defense mode
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2016, 05:29:58 am »
The defense is very easy for me until the boss ship arrives. At which point if he manages to kill me 1 time the base is his next target.

Offline Daft Loon

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Re: Specific Demolition ships for Defense mode
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2016, 06:54:01 pm »
Fire ships. Just make fire ships.

A fire ship, for those that don't know, is a ship that is, well, abandoned and set to the torch, often packed with explosives, and sent towards the enemy. In effect, suiciders.

Just have those. The rest of the ships are there to support the fire ships, so that they can do damage to the base. Make a lot of them, so that you can't simply cheese the fight, but make them the only thing capable of destroying the base.

Either that or increase the number of defenses you have surrounding the base. Perhaps the armored walls, or else increasing the number of gun emplacements.

That would be one good way to do it. I've had the thought that they could be implemented relatively easily by creating a "gun" with the appearance of an explosive payload, 0 turning arcs and 0 range. That way each of the AI close range ships can be turned into a fire ship by replacing its actual guns with 3 visible bombs on the front.

The defense is very easy for me until the boss ship arrives. At which point if he manages to kill me 1 time the base is his next target.

I find it like that sometimes, particularly when playing solo, but in the 4 ship matches especially it often ends up like a tower defense game with 10 ships at a time just beelining the base faster than they can be killed.

Offline Naoura

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Re: Specific Demolition ships for Defense mode
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2016, 08:41:39 pm »
Another alternative, copy and pasted from a reply I was working on for Unarmed's post:

....VIP vessels. Fire ships, a certain enemy VIP that is the only one targeting the base or objective. The rest are escorts for that one vessel, and are intercepting your ships. It would work so much better, and would make the waves coming from each of the drills more important. I do agree on more defenses, as it is a blasted Defense mission, but I would say make the boss one of these attack vessels, the last one. Nerf the speed like I've suggested, and it would make for a nice, climactic fight to hold the base. Say every 30 seconds a new wave would spawn in from the drills, with a single VIP ship each wave. Boss spawns in after the last drill goes down, and your job is to hold him off from the base for the 5 minute survival mark, or else kill the big bastard and be done with it.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Specific Demolition ships for Defense mode
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2016, 10:52:55 pm »
More ideas:

1. Remove guns/make ship distinguishable. Special bomb version of escape ship? Alt: Use Retrieve mechanics and have ships dragging 'payload' cargo balloons towards your base. You would have to then destroy the ship, and grab the payload to take it as far away from your base as possible. Perhaps make drills more powerful and you need to take a bomb to them to destroy them. Reverses the direction the cargo takes.

2. Replace VIP OR cargo balloon icon with:



3. Then:



4. Profit.


Offline Naoura

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Re: Specific Demolition ships for Defense mode
« Reply #7 on: November 14, 2016, 01:54:22 am »
How about giving the base those defensive guns on the enemy Refineries on the Assault maps? Just a few of those. It's a CRITICAL STRUCTURE.

I expect it to be ACTUALLY DEFENDED. But no. You have 6 Flak 88's that are nothing more than minor inconveniences to a SINGLE enemy ship. A DISABLE ship kills the guns before both guns in that lane can break it's armor.

Seriously. Just... fucking hell Muse...

Offline Naoura

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Re: Specific Demolition ships for Defense mode
« Reply #8 on: November 14, 2016, 03:19:35 pm »
Had the idea just the other day, and emailed Muse about it, excerpt here:

VIP waves. Each lane spawns enemies, and the enemy spawns can easily overwhelm the enemy base. However, they often do this with smaller weaponry, the same weaponry that is geared toward ship destruction. A larger, slower vessel, perhaps with a nice, big gun that's easy to spot, that would be able to siege the Geothermal plant while it's escorts engage your ships directly. The escorts wouldn't focus on the base, overwhelming it and making the fight impossible anymore. No, they would simply make getting to the enemy VIP very, very difficult, and much more rewarding. Say make each wave that spawns in a group of 5 ships. 1 Siegecraft and 4 escorts. Maybe just 3 escorts. From each of the lanes, you'd end up with a pretty difficult mission from the get-go. Especially with how incredibly hard each ship is to kill. After each drill is destroyed, that lane is now closed, making progressive waves slightly easier. Final wave: The Boss, with his escorts. That's it. A nice, climactic finale for the mission.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2016, 03:49:50 pm by Naoura »

Offline Unarmed Civilian

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Re: Specific Demolition ships for Defense mode
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2016, 04:21:16 pm »
Speaking of waves...

Personally, I was hoping defense would be more wave based, similar to tower defense games and TF2's Mann vs Machine. Various pre-set compositions of enemies are spawned in each wave (early waves are often single types of enemies, later waves throw in more combinations). This would've given a bit more tactical depth than just shooting everything that moves and hoping a carronade ship isn't on your rear if you're not in the Stormbreaker.

For example: first wave spawns nothing but the short fire ships. The second spawns short and long kill ships. Third spawns short and long disable ships. Fourth spawns every type of short ship. Fifth spawns every type of long ship. Sixth sends a mix of short and long ships of all types. Seventh is the boss and his support. Some waves have critical weaknesses that can be exploited, and make players feel smart for exploiting them. Other waves are well-rounded offenses that demand the best of players, making them feel proud for their proficiency. Right now I feel like I'm running errands and hoping that the win-the-game ship doesn't burn engines straight to the base.

On other gripes with defense:

They want to tell a story where giant spider-drills are sabotaging this geothermal station, and the enemy forces are trying to protect the drills and contribute to the sabotage themselves. However, the drills can be ignored indefinitely in practice, there is no urgency to destroying the drills other than risk of your crew abandoning out of boredom. They don't do any damage to your structure, the boss doesn't seem to spawn until all or at least most of the drills are destroyed.

There's also a problem with 1 ship defense. The devs are trying to balance 1 ship defense, 2 ship defense, 3 ship defense, and 4 ship defense all at the same time. 1 ship defense means that a single ship has to go out and destroy all those drills themselves while simultaneously fending off ships from attacking the main base. All other numbers allows you to have a dedicated defender and a dedicated assault ship, splitting the task up. I feel like they are trying to make the same mission be doable regardless of number of ships, but I do not think the devs should worry so much about 1 ship defense. If anything, make it the most difficult and demanding so players are encouraged to work with multiple ships. All missions should be easier to handle with more people as opposed to less. You have twice as many guns with 2 ships than 1. And twice as many ships.

I would personally like to see the drills made into threats spawned with or in between waves as a way to force defenders to react, rather than being the primary objective of the mission. Make it so that drills do damage to the base over time if left unchecked, forcing someone to react quickly to deal with it. This allows you to do stuff like spawning 4 drills with no support ships, and still having a high-pressure situation where speed is important, lest you lose to the drills. For any MvM players, think robot tanks. The ones that often spawn in addition to the ground troops and, while having no offensive capabilities, are very tough to kill and will single-handedly cause you to lose the game if they get to their objective.

I keep bringing up things like MvM and Warframe in regards to the Alliance content because they are two rather successful competitors. Sometimes I really wonder what kind of research Muse does when designing these modes. Do they look at what competing PvE games do and try to iterate and innovate off of those, or are they trying to come up with something completely on their own? There is nothing wrong with standing on the shoulders of giants.



As a side note, they dismissed Warframe as being a "2-D" game in dev chat before, talking about how it wouldn't work quite the same. Except that's not quite right. The alliance maps don't make enough use of height to be any more than "2-and-a-half-D", as movement is primarily 2D and height is mostly used to make sure you don't run into low-lying obstacles and can point your guns at the enemy. There's no real stealth element since ships instantly spot you, so it isn't like flying above the clouds or keeping low to the ground helps much. Don't dismiss what they have done with their various modes. There's a reason they are so successful that they are still putting out regular content updates and upgrading the game.

Also, Warframe is more 3-D than you think, if you actually use the movement options. I've had a lot of fun in some missions where I am jumping around on equipment near the ceiling to avoid detection from below, and there are a lot of very vertical areas in various maps where you can escape by falling down or parkour'ing your way up.

I just really want Alliance to be as successful as possible so they can get back to adding content to Skirmish.

Offline Naoura

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Re: Specific Demolition ships for Defense mode
« Reply #10 on: November 14, 2016, 04:32:36 pm »
Not sure about having the drills be a massive threat unless the vessel's that spawn in no longer target the base. You'd only be adding gas on the fire if you made them add pressure like that.

Maybe make it so that the drills are the only threat? They deal a lot of damage to the base if they are left to their own devices, but are pretty heavily guarded, while the smaller assault vessles are going out to dismantle your defenses for the Boss spawn. He only spawns after all drills are destroyed, and your defenses are more geard against the boss rather than the smaller attack vessels. That would explain whythey go down quicker.

As for balancing 1 through 4 ship balances... well, use the war effort. Make the missions rather stable and difficult, and reward using different type of runs. Do a 4 ship run? You're more likely to win, so you get less of an impact on the world. Doing a 3 ship run? A little harder, so they'll throw you a bone. 2 ships? Great game, you guys did really well, here's a nice plum for your faction. Solo? Goddamned, you did that?! Nice, big weight on the victory. This goes with my running idea that MMR should not give you a solo-ship lobby if it can't find another lobby. Just make a 2 ship lobby, like in Skirmish. Solo should be an option, but it should only be a custom option.

Offline Unarmed Civilian

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Re: Specific Demolition ships for Defense mode
« Reply #11 on: November 14, 2016, 05:23:42 pm »
It's not as if the drills have to spawn right at the start and keep respawning something over and over and over. But right now it feels like the drills don't do anything.

And it's not as if the drills are doing 5000 damage per second to the base. They can just do slow chip damage to it. Since chip damage is a huge problem as it currently is, even doing as little damage as a solo gat plane would be enough to make every drill something to prioritize.

The support ships should primarily target players and try to overwhelm and destroy them before targeting the base.

Ships don't have to even be present with the drills. They could be part of different waves, or could have a trivial number of ships assisting the drills. You could even have the ships retreat after the drills are destroyed as if they were regrouping for a larger attack. MvM has a system where there are enemies you are required to kill on each wave, but certain "support" enemies can also spawn that are destroyed as soon as the last required enemy is destroyed.

As for war effort and other reward nonsense, I don't care. They can balance that after they balance the modes for fun and engagement. If I spend money on a game, I want to have a good time in exchange. I've played MvM and blown up money-powered robot armies with no rewards for years despite there being a version that actually does have rewards. I want it to tell a coherent story, does not even have to be a good one, and be fun.

...

I will say, however, that rewards should be skewed to encourage cooperation. If 16 players who really want to influence the map find that they can do 16 individual solo runs and have more total influence than one big 4 ship run, why on earth would they ever want to work together? See complaints about single-man Oblivion Retrieve runs.

Offline Richard LeMoon

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Re: Specific Demolition ships for Defense mode
« Reply #12 on: November 14, 2016, 05:55:49 pm »
What about this: if the drills had massive mortars on them that would be shelling your base with a new type of damage called anti-structure or some such which does minuscule damage to armor. Give the base a good amount of armor, and a 'structure' that can only be hurt severely by anti-structure ammo. Now add in ship mounted guns that also do anti-structure damage and put them on the 'VIP' ships along with a light piercing gun.

What you end up with is structure armor that can not be hurt enough by the drills or main VIP cannons. The other ships need to break the armor for them. This makes the drills a severe threat if your base armor breaks. Letting a VIP get close to your base will also be a large threat. Destroying the drills will allow you to concentrate on killing incoming VIPs and the boss, if included.

Also, give your base a few Gatlings. This would allow it to clear out those annoying planes after a while, and break the armor of assaulting ships.


It you can keep the regular ships away, your base takes no damage. If you take out the drills, the main source of damage is removed. Then a rush of VIPs come in for the next 5 minutes along with maybe a boss.

Offline Unarmed Civilian

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Re: Specific Demolition ships for Defense mode
« Reply #13 on: November 14, 2016, 06:08:18 pm »
The drills don't even need mortars on them to make sense. The base is labeled "Geothermal Tap", it's a geothermal power plant. The drills are trying to dig vents for the heat/heated water to escape, threatening the ability of it to make power. I'm fairly certain that is the idea behind the spider drills in the first place.

In other words, it could just deal direct damage to the base over time.

Also, the devs seem to be adamant on not giving the base armor. I don't know why. It's the only entity in the entire game that does not have armor and isn't invulnerable. Even the small refineries on Retrieve have armor.

Offline Naoura

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Re: Specific Demolition ships for Defense mode
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2016, 06:20:38 pm »
I think that one complicates it a little too much, @Richard. Doing both makes it too cluttered.

I'd say either make the drills do constant damage and be actively defended, with a Boss wave at the end aimed at taking out the base, which your defenses help take out.

-OR-

A Siege craft wave that spawns in from each lane every 2 minutes, and is the only vessel that is able to deal damage to the base. Fragile bu heavily defended, it can engage from mid-short range and easily knock out the base if you don't deal with them before they get within firing range.

The drill option would make speed a priority. Shut down the drills before they do irreparable damage, and keep your defenses up for when the boss rolls in to try and knock you out. With this, it'd be defending the guns and knocking out the drills, and would reward speed rather than hard defense.

In the second mode, strong patrols and an iron shield would be more useful, a lot slower paced and more focused on keeping the lanes bottled up. A longer, more paced mission than some of the others, so for longer runs for the players, it's better off. The boss wave gives a nice climactic element... if they even pretend to balance out the Boss's speed.

I do agree with defenses on the Tower, though. You know those little howitzers on the refineries? Why the hell can't we have those on our so-called "critical structure"?