Messages

16

Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Balance problem - metamidion

« on: November 19, 2014, 12:42:43 pm »

So there seems to be two major omissions in the thought processes of anyone who says the metamidion is op. The first is that it is incredibly easy to get out of its gun's arcs, you just have to fly toward the darned thing. If you are less than twenty meters off the pyra's right side, then you are basically invulnerable. Twenty meters off the pyra's left side is pretty safe too, provided you can keep a good Chem cycle going. One thing to keep in mind though, if you circle all the way around to the back of a pyra, you have given the pyra a way to escape. Avoid being directly behind it unless you have some heavy disable power on your ship.

The second omission is that the pyra is one of the easiest ships to kill. Pyramidions have decent armor and decent hull, this is actually a very bad combination. Because their armor is only decent, it is actually pretty easy to break. Their hull is also decent, which means that it is easily one clipped by a mortar. Oh, and because pyras have decent armor, it takes too long to rebuild the armor, a main engie simply can't repair the armor faster then a mortar can kill the pyra.

The problem of simply flying towards it, is that you are getting whiddled down the entire time its approaching. Plus, this is assuming that the pyra is just going to sit there and let you get to taht side. Assuming you get to the side, then you have to get your own guns in arc. While that's happening, the pyra is still manuvering. While it may be  easy to kill, it is also easy to maintain. And you can rebuild a hull in time to not die to mortar.

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Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Balance problem - metamidion

« on: November 19, 2014, 12:32:53 pm »

When I was talking to top-level captains when the game first got into MLG, it was abundantly clear that the metamidion is a problem for the game, due to its ability to be so easily exploited.

I'm not sure whether or not I get you right here, but if you state metamideons are problematic for the ongoing MLG torunemant, I firmly disagree.
If I recall it correctly a single metamideon has been used once in a single match in a single best of three encounter by one of the teams which have won their bracket and will play in the finals this weekend. Hence I'd argue the pyra wasn't overused there and I also disagree with the metamideon is problematic for the balance of competitive matches in general.

I don't understand how it's fine that players can beat players of higher skill by simply using a certain ship and loadout.

Why not? It's not like picking a metamideon wins you matches against experienced players. But if a ship, as green as its crew might be, gets its guns in operational range on you with a metamideon, they surely deserve a chance to kill on you.

Here's the thing though. If a hwatcha fish misses its target, it is extremely vulnerable

Yeah, here is another thing: if you fail to disable a ship in gat-mortar range with a hwacha volley you very well deserve to be extremely vulnerable.

I'm not referring to the actual competitions, I was just providing a time to base the conversation. Picking a metamidion will not secure you a win, but it will definitely help. As I said earlier. I was beating players who were definitely better than me with mediocre effort.  And I agree with you, if you miss a hwacha shot, you should be punished, but it is a lot harder to punish a metamidion by out maneuvering their arcs.

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Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Balance problem - metamidion

« on: November 19, 2014, 12:20:50 pm »

I think i figured it out now.

The issue is that lazy players can take a pyramdion and kill things with it without trying half as hard as a higher level competitive player simply because metamidion is the op minigun that takes half an hour to kill even if the person using it can't figure out why his engines keep breaking while he uses moonshine.

It's not that the metamidion is unstoppable. It's the way an idiot can simply take it and start pub stomping competitive clans.

If you're wrong, correct me, but this is what I think the OP is about.

I have nothing to say to this except flying higher than a pyramidion is my fail-safe for fighting pyramidions. Or any ship at all.

Yes! But not laziness really. Just skill level required. A pyra is very easy to fly and to maintain. Thats fine, but its weaknesses are not reflecting its strengths. And I say to Kamboa, thats the same with every other ship. Like when people say use  hwatcha, disable guns, etc. Thats for all ships. A Mobula is just as hurt as a pyra if it takes a merc to engines or a hwatcha to the face. But mobula faces a lot of problems of its own. Its width profile makes it easy for gat, its large balloon makes it easy for LJ and carronade. What special weaknesses does the pyra have? Something that is large enough to be exploited by simple weapon choices? Again, I dont think that the pyra should be harder to maintain or should change its layout, but definitely nerf the turning ability, so if a pyra is outmaneuvered, that will put it in a position where the pyra is at a large disadvantage. The pyra will still fill its roll as a fast killer, but the skill level required to use it will have a higher ceiling

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Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Balance problem - metamidion

« on: November 19, 2014, 10:36:09 am »

First off, I think the game is currently better balanced than it ever has been before. I see quite a large variety of ship builds in the matches I play in public and competitive matches these days. I particularly don't see swarms of metamideons in public nor in competitive matches. So I think you're exaggerating the problem quite a bit, as your observations just don't reflect my personal experiences.
Regarding competitive play I do not consider the Metamideon to be dominant at all. That's really a thing of the past. There are just so many builds which can easily handle metamideons - hwachafishes, Meta-Galleon, Junkers in general and many more. Sure a metamideon is good for a kill if it isn't dealt with swiftly, but the same is true for many other kill-builds.

The metamideon is and always has been a very straight forward and easy to run ship. It takes relatively little effort* to put it in a state where it can get a kill even on very experienced ships. It's a noobfriendly ship and remains useful in the higher tiers. I don't see a problem with that. In fact I like GoIO has got a ship that's easy to pick up and worth to master.

Hell, even fly out of arcs with a squid and keep in their blind spot.

This argument pops up in almost every squid vs Pyra debte, but personally I've never considered the positioning against squids to be problematic for pyras. This explicitly includes well flown and crewed squids.

A metamidion without Phoenix claw is a dead midion... A pilot who does not use his claw is a dead midion... So maybe pilots should nerfed?

Yes, the phoenix claw is wildly regarded as overpowered. The pyramideon is one of the ships which benefits most from it.

*it's easy to get the pyra into a state where it can operate at 80% of its power (which is sufficient to perform decently in most public matches). Squeezing out the last 20% of power the pyra has got to offer takes a lot of skill though.

I don't understand how it's fine that players can beat players of higher skill by simply using a certain ship and loadout, without them having to use considerably more effort than then the higher skilled players. I would say the same about your experiences not reflecting what I've seen. If you look at the top tier competitive game, everything is balanced in terms of skill(or risk) to reward. Starcraft, for example, has strategies that are very simple and deadly. They are also noob friendly. How do you balance the fact that they exist? They will only work within their specific role, and if they do not either just win the game, or cause massive damage, the other player can easily win. Simple to use, highly aggressive. Sounds like a metamidion. So how do you balance it? If it doesnt do what its made to do, it should then be faced with very obvious and exploitable weaknesses. A metamidion is meant to go in fast and kill fast. Thats why I said to nerf steering. If a player is able to overcome its strength, it should then be very difficult for the meta to put itself on even ground. Thats not the case, though. Hwatcha fish, galleons, meta junkers. I've faced them all. Even when they are piloted by incredibly skilled pilots. Here's the thing though. If a hwatcha fish misses its target, it is extremely vulnerable, even if it has flames. If a meta is out-manuvered, I simple reverse with kero, re-align guns, then go again.

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Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Balance problem - metamidion

« on: November 19, 2014, 10:23:12 am »

Sure, there are absolutely ways to do kill a meta. I'm not saying that. What I am saying is the skill difference needed is absurd. When I was talking to top-level captains when the game first got into MLG, it was abundantly clear that the metamidion is a problem for the game, due to its ability to be so easily exploited.

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Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Balance problem - metamidion

« on: November 19, 2014, 09:11:09 am »

Balloon popping is a effective tool, yes. However, the balloon is right next to where the gat usually is, making it extremely easy to repair then resume fighting. Thats not really the issue in my eyes, though. The fact that you can keep arcs incredibly well, despite the ship being made to work almost as a projectile

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Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Balance problem - metamidion

« on: November 19, 2014, 09:01:13 am »

However in terms of skill needed, and this is coming form someone started in the competitive scene as a meta only pilot,  is so much less than what I needed for any other ship.

So? Same is with guns. It's a lot easier and faster to learn how to fire gatling or flamer than hades or lj and i don't see people complaining gatling is op or unbalanced.
Pretty much every ship in game can wreck metamidions with the right loadout, but yes you will need more time to master those. But hey, more effort - more reward. Fair, don't you think?

No, the guns are balanced fairly decently, especially since the flame nerf I saw that went out. The risk/reward factor for a gat is balanced. Sure you have great hull strip, but you have mid range at best and low accuracy. LJ can render a ship nearly useless in less than a clip, but it is very tough to fire. Now, the effort I needed when I first started to play guns nearly a year ago was incredibly minute in comparison to my results. This was especially obvious when I beat pilots who are without a doubt better than me, but I was able to win with little effort needed. Have I sometimes beat player who are better than me with other ship? Sure, but it was with much more effort and the fact that SAC was training their engies bootcamp style.

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Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Balance problem - metamidion

« on: November 19, 2014, 08:42:28 am »

All you have to do is get out of arcs, plus the pyra is pretty weak, less acceleration, rotation speed, vertical acceleration/top speed than other ships. And plus it lacks disable, so take a carronade and/or an Artemis, get rid of the guns and it can't win.

Fly a catfish. (Hwatcha goldfish.)
Take meta junker (hades/art/art, gat/ mortar, carronade/banshee, gattling/banshee)
Fly a mobula and dodge them. Then use their poor turning speed and your pretty good acceleration to get away from them.
Overpower them with the firing power of a galleon.
Knock them off arcs with mines.
Take a carrot pyramidion (carronade, Artemis.)
Flamer carro pyramidion.
Out range them.

Hell, even fly out of arcs with a squid and keep in their blind spot.
Try a dual gat, heavy flak spire, with a mine, that's harder to pull off but since a pyramidion is almost all hull, they can die to this pretty good.

It's not over powered, it has its place, and it has its counters. Plus I'm seeing less Metamidions these days if I'm honest...

I will admit though the skill floor to use one is pretty low, but still it can be beaten regardless of this.

It's important to note that gat mortar wrecks pyramidions because of all the hull they have to hit, fly at your own risk.

Speaking of which, you can block shots with every ships balloon except a pyra.

Bit of a mess of a reply but hey.

Getting out of arcs should be the right answer...but with phoenix claw and the gat mortar having exceptional arcs in almost all directions, its not that hard for a meta to stay on target. Of course it can be beaten, however, the effort/skill needed to beat one in a mobula, for instance, is much higher than vice versa. Also, blocking shots with a meta is pretty unnecessary most of the time, due to its compact nature.

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Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Balance problem - metamidion

« on: November 19, 2014, 08:36:44 am »

"Metamidions are easy to crew and pilot if you have a crew who will not run around like headless chickens... add an AI engineer or a gungineer who insists on two people being downstairs the metamidion looses all of its potency."

That is all ships.

"That said as a metamidion pilot, it has a lot of weaknesses, just because other pilots do not exploit those weaknesses often enough does not make the ship itself over-powered..."

I have spent more time piloting a metamidion more than any other ship, as that was my main ship in competition for a long time (until Tropo thought I was not stupid enough top screw up) Does it have weaknesses? Of course, but in terms of weakness compared to strengths, the meta is very imbalanced.

"Would be interesting to see how the hand of balance intends to balance it out a bit more, but once that happens, you'll never see the pyra in the hands of PUGs (pick up groups) again, which would be a shame..."

No, we should start seeing more spires, junkers, mobula etc. I'm not saying that the metamidion is perfect. I am saying the skill needed to do well with one..is really not that high.

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Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Balance problem - metamidion

« on: November 19, 2014, 07:24:58 am »

However in terms of skill needed, and this is coming form someone started in the competitive scene as a meta only pilot,  is so much less than what I needed for any other ship.

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Feedback and Suggestions / Balance problem - metamidion

« on: November 19, 2014, 07:14:28 am »

Hey guys. So just popped into Guns after taking a 3 month break, due to frustration over the seemingly lack of balance in the game. I came back. Same problems, different day. The problems all revolve around the metamidion. It is honestly a blight on what could be a perfect game. A ship, with unmatched killing power, who can maneuver amazingly, and has a pretty decent hull health. It is sad, when I am see players with twice the skill of others, lose to choosing the wrong ship. How can this be fixed? Nerf the hell out of the maneuverability. The pyramidion should be like a bullet. When its on target, it is absolutely deadly, but when juked, does not have the ability to phoenix claw right to where it needed to be. I understand that the ship should be noobie friendly, but that doesn't mean allow new players to compensate for lack of skill. As someone who cared enough about the game to start and assist with getting this game into MLG as well as participate in its competitive scene, it is extremely frusturating to have to deal with a ship that is over powered and takes considerably less skill to be good at compared to every other ship. Sure, at the top level of play, the metamidion loses SOME of its power, but in random ladder, it is a game breaker. I'm not trying to be a pest, I'm only sharing why a player who regarded this game so highly, had to stop playing out of sheer frustration over one ship. Thanks for your time

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Community Events / MLG tournament lead

« on: September 23, 2014, 10:05:20 pm »

Hey everyone. Due to some changes within my offline life, fatherhood and all that, and a bit of a change of heart, I can no longer be the lead for the MLG charity tournament. If anyone wants to lead it, I have the rules, MLG contact info, roster for referees and even the theme song made by one of our own community members. If you are interested, please contact me via email at gkconnor91@gmail.com

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Feedback and Suggestions / Re: New gun: Siren Mine Launcher

« on: August 16, 2014, 08:42:00 pm »

You have my vote! I think this would be a great way to create more engagements, especially in Canyons, where you can fly around for 15-20 minute looking for eachother.

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Community Events / MLG Charity Tournament Volunteer meeting reminder

« on: August 16, 2014, 09:15:05 am »

Just wanted to let everyone know (or remind those that do know) that there is a volunteer meeting today for anyone interested in helping out with the first ever MLG Guns of Icarus Online tournament. The meeting will be today (August 16th) at 1700 EST. We will be meeting on teamspeak >> >> gunsoficarus.mainvoice.net   << address  <<. Please, only use utilize that teamspeak at the proper time and if you are planning to volunteer, as it does contain a limited amount of people, and I would like to have all capabilities to provide for the most amount of people. Thank you in advance and I hope to see as many people as I can.

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The Lounge / Re: Introducing the new CAs!

« on: August 14, 2014, 05:07:33 pm »

Hey guys!!!!! Excited to become a CA. Always wanted to be one, ever since I started Guns. Ive had the pleasure of serving with most if not all of you guys, so this should hopefully feel somewhat natural, joining your ranks .