Messages

61

Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Lock out noobs

« on: September 02, 2013, 08:45:52 am »

I still think we will need more sophistication than that, I will start something in general discussion tonight.

62

Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Fire Damage

« on: September 01, 2013, 05:23:15 pm »

This is a request for fire damage to transfer to the hull once the armor is down.

Firedamage already transfers to the hull once armor is down. What you don't get is firestacks on the hull, which wouldn't be fair either.

EDIT: Just tested in training mode to verify and yes, I can destroy the dummy using heavy clip; targetting only the hull with a flamethrower.

63

The Pit / Re: Are you kidding me?

« on: August 30, 2013, 02:07:21 am »

The attitude you've displayed on the forums is far worse than an doomsday "they're coming" scenario you've been able to come up with so far.

You might not like my attitude, but it really is going to end with "I told you so" if nothing is done (as it always has). If you want to stay politically correct and ignore the problem, go ahead. But then I ask you to refrain from complaining when the game ends up being loaded with ragers and trolls. Because if you do, I will browse google for the biggest "I TOLD YOU SO" picture I can find.

64

General Discussion / Re: GoI:O on Playstation

« on: August 29, 2013, 04:18:53 pm »

I'm sorry, you said there was a weekend of ragers? Where was this?

No, I said there was a weekend full of trolls. I'm the rager.

65

The Pit / Re: Are you kidding me?

« on: August 29, 2013, 08:39:50 am »

What is the purpose of this thread again?

I suppose it has the same purpose as my rants. Those are 5 guys that disconnected. I find it hard to believe that all of these players had connection problems at the same time. So it's safe to assume that they just left. Knowing OP and knowing that he is a competent player makes it very unlikely that he was the cause of them quitting. That leaves incompetence at the clan's behalf. This is just the start, give it a few months and it will be common.

66

General Discussion / Re: GoI:O on Playstation

« on: August 28, 2013, 09:03:54 pm »

But everyone has their limits and noone wants to put a team full time on policing the community.

CAs, reporting for duty. This is what we became CAs to do, to moderate the community and make sure everybody has the best time possible. And it's what we'll keep doing.

How are you going to maintain a playerbase of 50000 concurrently active players? I don't mean any offense, but at some point you will not keep up anymore with the outstanding issues. Furthermore, I prefer preventive (uninterruptive) measures over damage control.

67

General Discussion / Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?

« on: August 28, 2013, 05:30:18 pm »

I'm a longtime World of Warcraft player, and that game has long had a distinction between the "hardcore" and "casual" players supposedly based on how much each group played each week. People would often argue that Blizzard (the company that makes WoW) favored one at the expense of the other, or that they "obviously don't care about [casual/hardcore] players and just want to pander to the [hardcore/casual] crowd." The thing is, that dichotomy is worthless. How much someone plays the game does not, ultimately, equal their devotion or ability to play said game.

I think this is why your description of "casual" and "hardcore" players makes me angry; I'm coming off of a very similar argument that was ultimately pointless, and I'd like to not have it again here. Thus, I will from now on refer to our two groupings as "bad" and "good" players respectively.

You can argue all you want, but definition is definition and sadly definition can change. It's sad to see the "I play for fun" slogan being abused the way it is now, I really mean that. But there's no way around it really.

The problem is that there's no good way to separate good and bad players other than rankings and the like, and the player base in GoIO is far too small to institute some kind of system like that. How many people are actually playing this game? I've never seen more than 1,000 online at any given time; I play at odd hours, true, but that's the absolute maximum. How many of those are under level three in all classes? How many are over level 10? If I level up, will I suddenly have nobody else to play with? What if level is a poor measure of player skill? I got to level three/four in everything just by playing the game for a couple weeks. Yeah, I'm not bad, but I'm far from an expert. How do you measure that? Do we let players police themselves? Vote kick systems are ripe for abuse, and, as I said, there are too few players to go kicking all of the bad ones that show up. You're right that the commendation system is fairly weak; most people just hit it as a matter of course. But I'm not sure what else can be done.

I'd also like to say that I have yet to notice any large wave of "bad" players showing up. Yeah, there are a few bad eggs, but never so many I can't just ignore the annoying ones or find a new lobby to play in.

No, you do not need a ranking, like mentioned AVA has done fine with the noob pool + kicking and having such a pool with some minor enforcement will do wonders. You will keep some rotten apples, sure, but they will stay a minority.

That is the exact opposite of what I am saying and you know it. Since when did engaging with the community and actively trying to rectify a growing problem become ignorance. If Muse were to ever implement a system that split the player base the way you are suggesting, I would consider myself having gotten my $10 out of the game and walk away from it.

No, that is exactly what you said, you just don't know it. Of course we would want everyone to pub happily, but there's limits to people's patience. The sooner we agree on that the sooner we can start on making sure that that patience limit doesn't get reached.

I fail to see this problem as anything more than minor and sincerely believe you are looking at the situation with a very lopsided view based on what should have been in my experience (and I believe a lot of others) a statistical anomaly.

I have been playing quite regularly for nigh on 3 weeks now and I would say <1% of the player base I have encountered fit into the category you are describing.

No matter how much you try to sugar coat it, what you are selling is elitism, a two tiered player base, us and them, and I and many others just aren't buying it.

(The reporting system exists for a reason and should continue to be used. I'm pretty sure Muse follow up on all reports.)

No, now it isn't nearly as bad as it can be. The way the game is set up now, bad players don't even stay very long because it goes ugly really fast for them. However, when I started playing HoN, the community was just like this one is now. It has gone to shit, it went to shit before people even realized what was up and when it finally hit everyone in the face, the assumption was that going retail would fix it. It went retail, the idiots stayed, matchmaking was around the corner, it would fix this issue; it didn't, it as a matter of fact made them worse. Now it's gone to a reporting system with a mute button and.. oh everyone left for DotA2. DotA2 now has all the ragers and idiots. What happened there? Mute system got implemented, every player that gave a shit about winning was pissed off so bad... Even I wanted to swing my PC out the window that day. And it just got worse, the matchmaking system there did the opposite of fixing things. So again, this is the future of GoIO if the development team is not careful.

I'm not selling elitism. I'm not an elitist, I don't think people should be withheld from my game on the merit that they are less skilled than I am. I believe they should be withheld from my games because they just don't give a fuck, and I do. As long as bad players are trying, I can make them better than they think they are. If they don't care, I might as well be downloading porn.

68

General Discussion / Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?

« on: August 28, 2013, 02:44:22 pm »

No, just no. Giving the player base control over that puts to much trust in people. A person can be nice, people are sheep and tend to have a pack mentality. If that person trying to move up from the 'casual' pool were to make a few small mistakes, chances are some (and I mean some, Merry men did a great job Saturday past of demonstrating the comradeship and sportsmanship in this games player base) players might vote them down as not good (elite) enough to play with. A system such as you suggest will inevitably end up with a two (or even 3 including beginners matches)  tiered system which divides the player base permanently. The more people who join GoIO and stay with us, the higher the chance of a split player base happening. As far as i am concerned, no one player or group of players should have the right to limit who can play with who. If we want dedicated games against opponents who we know are skilled and with players we know are skilled don't we already have the clan system and the esports centered around that?

You missed the point. As far as voting goes, people have thus far been very liberal with the commendation system. Even while they don't just hand them out at random, they still give those to the majority of players. If a player desires to overstep his initial set boundaries, which in current form are the lvl1-3 matches, he has to prove to others he's doing that for valid reasons. It is not a voting mechanism to abuse and keep everyone out, if that ends up being the case I'll even come back here to tell it has to be changed. The problem right now however is that people have free access to an environment that isn't necessarily waiting for them(and that is an understatement) and allowing these people to abuse that access is going to cause just as much trouble as the supposed elitist community keeping everyone out. So yeah, a middle road has to be sought, but again, my intention is to keep those who just want to dick around playing together and those who are interested in playing the actual game(which means LISTENING, COMMUNICATING, OBEDIENCE) into the currently main player pool.

In my eyes, the best way to prevent the split is to keep playing the pubs. Sure there will be the occasional bad egg but I'm sure the vast majority of the casual player base are trying to learn the game. Is it not our duty to assist those players rather than isolate them for mistakes we all would have made at some point? (and some of us still do!)

What you're saying is like, "Lets ignore the currently slowly growing problem and it will be alright". The problem here, right now, that is slowly growing but can grow faster as soon as this game picks up, is that the definition of casual is now different from what it was. The current day casuals are yesterday's retards. It's the group of players that purposely do things they shouldn't, that trolls their team(I don't mind a good minelauncher troll from my opponent tbh) and try to incite rage at every turn. I mean, by old definition I'm still a casual player, I don't play competitive (except for subbing on TCD last saturday) and have no real intention to do that thus far. Yet me being me, I care about the game and how I play it. I want to improve and get to a level where I can be proud at myself. It means I have to practice, it means I have to learn. In that sense, I'm a hardcore casual player. The current definition of casual simply does not honor the group of players that are motivated but not competitive and the modern definition of hardcore is "not casual": if you're pissed off at your pilot overshooting your target the 20th time even while you told him to slow down, you are the elitist hardcore idiot; he didn't do anything wrong.

Our duty is to assist the old definition of casual players, the old definition of competitive players, the motivated crowd that has been suffering a lot lately in mainstream games. They are the ones that will do anything they can to enjoy the game as much as you do and they will love to take your advice. Those are the players we want. And sure, we can end up with the occasional fit, but it will not end up at HoN/DotA/LoL levels if we manage this properly early on.

QKO, the best I can recommend is that you join a competitive focused clan and try to only play with them/other clans. You are never going to avoid "casual" players otherwise. Attempting to split the player base into two group on purpose is something Muse will never do, because it's bad for business. I don't think you're correct in assuming the separation will be done naturally.

If I were to join a clan and play matches with them(and only with them), that would be inhousing. Remember that I'm trying to prevent inhousing and I'm trying to make sure the teams nicely stay in pub grounds staying as accessible as they should be. Do you understand how ridiculous it is that I can play Guilty Gear and challenge any player regardless of skill and he will play against me, while going into dota and having to fight my way through some retarded ELO system? Given that Guilty Gear is 1v1 and much more targeted towards a motivated crowd, it's no excuse for GoIO to end up in the dota like fashion. And it isn't just the ELO system, private inhouses are just as bad. They stop motivated players from getting anywhere, because they are stuck with the retards.

I can tell you care a lot about the game and are worried that it will fill up with annoying people who make it no fun to play, but discriminating against new people/those who don't have the time to master every little nuance is not the way to keep things from going downhill. The best we can do is continue to try and teach those who don't know what their doing and show them how fun working as a team really is. I have yet to meet a person in GoIO who reacted badly to a little advice; heavens know I certainly could still use it often.

I'm not discriminating against new players. You want to learn Guilty Gear and you live in Europe? I'm willing to explain it to you right now as a matter of speaking. Guns Of Icarus is no different(except I don't feel experienced enough as it is). The problem for me is that I invest time into this game, I don't wish for my time to be ill-invested, there's a lot of porn I can download in that time so it has to be worth it. And guess what? What type of player will ALWAYS be a waste of time to play with? -> The modern casual player. That is the group I try to segregate. I'm not saying they should be banned from playing the game, heck, they might learn that learning the tricks of the trade and playing the game as intended is actually a lot more fun and would want to make a switch between the crowds. This is beneficial to both groups, because the motivated players don't have to yell at anyone and the 'casual' group doesn't get yelled at. The 'casual' players can determine at their own pace on how they desire to play and enjoy the game. Yet because the system is done by Muse on a generic level, the transition between the two communities will be a LOT easier than inhouses.

And this method of separation has worked to some extend in AVA, where there wasn't even a voting mechanism; there people who didn't know where to go or were ill aiming were immediately kicked(because there is a beginner pool). On the flipside, I could create a new alt(starting at level 1) in that game and immediately play on the main servers without much issues. It means that I as a motivated pub player had direct access to the non-beginner pool at the risk of getting kicked from their games if I performed badly. That is what I believe should be a decent blueprint for GoIO to use as a starting point.

69

General Discussion / Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?

« on: August 28, 2013, 03:55:20 am »

QKO, I can't disagree with you more. "Casual" and "Hardcore" is pretty much the worst possible way to divide players, and it sets up a situation where were are actively discriminating against people simply because they don't play "the right way." (i.e., exactly how I think they should be playing) The last thing a game with a small base should be doing is saying that some players are more equal than others.

The division will be made regardless of whether we like it or not. At some point players will say enough is enough and they will confine themselves to a group they can trust. That is how inhouses are born. And while inhouses are not meant to affect the community in any bad way, it will mean that players who wish to get into this game will have a much harder time. Hence it is more sensible to have this division done by the game(properly done by the game) voiding the necessity of inhouses and thus all players who wish to enjoy the game to its fullest enter the same pool. I'm not saying we need to implement any "I'm better than you" stats, just a way for the game to seperate "Ooooh, what does THIS button do?" from "I try to win". And when players freshly enter the more hardcore pool, the preexisting pool can vote over several matches on whether the new player should stay in that pool or not. And if not, they are relegated to the 'casual' pool for a while before they can try again.

I do understand your frustration, and I'm not suggesting that we do nothing about it. You've mentioned before that you don't want GoIO to turn into another DoTA or LoL. That's fine; I have no interest in either of those games, largely because I know how awful their players are. But you know something else? The number one way to end up like that is punishing players because they are new. DoTA's players aren't terrible because they're bad, they're terrible because they take the game way too seriously. Fixing the issue of annoying players is a lot more complicated than just hitting them something whenever they misbehave, and not matter what you'll never fully solve the problem. I'm sorry, but this is a Sisyphean task you've set for yourself.

Misbehavior in games like LoL and DotA happen due to the lack of power players have. There is no leader, the role has to be assumed by someone and he can pray that others listen. The reporting systems are complete shit and easily abused by trolls. And developers there have done NOTHING to separate casuals from hardcore players which means that it is common to have 1 or 2 feeders on your team that do everything wrong and claim to 'play for fun'. And because there's a leaver protection system in place there, people are losing HOURS over these kind of players. That is their frustration, it's not that these players are bad or evil, they are frustrated as hell and they have a really short fuse because of it. I have been there, I have seen it happen; everyone that has played with me knows I'm quick to lash out and the afore mentioned games are the cause of that.

And as to "hardcore" gamers having more fun? That is 100% bull****. How much fun a person has with a game has to with the individual person, their taste in games and they way they choose to play. Saying someone isn't having as much fun because they don't play the game like you think they should...that's the kind of elitist attitude that pervades games like DoTA. We should be welcoming different people and different ways of looking at the game, not looking down our noses at the stupid "casuals."

So you expect to play Chess for a full year without learning the rules or learning from your mistakes and expect to have the same amount of fun of someone who does the same but does learn? You are really mistaken about this. And I don't know what other bullshit comes after that, but I've not mentioned any form of elitist behavior in the post you respond to. I even mentioned that the mindset of 'I know things better than you' is detrimental to a player's performance. So what is your argument?

70

General Discussion / Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?

« on: August 27, 2013, 03:50:24 am »

QKO, I have no idea what you're suggesting. We separate the whole playerbase into two halves, the "casual" players and "hardcore" players? Where do you draw the line on which is which? I play the game a lot, nearly every day; am I a "hardcore" player? I understand the game, but I don't really care about minute numbers and beneath-the-hood stuff; does that mean I'm a "casual" player? Should we put two buttons when you load up the game, "Click here for Casual/Hardcore?" Wouldn't people just pick the one they want?

I know, maybe we could use a secret handshake.

Sadly, different threads get different responses. While I will not make a full repeat, you could use the commendation system on segregating lower levels that care and lower levels that don't care. And how can you claim to play this game daily and have me outlevel you?

The time spent isn't necessarily what makes an hardcore gamer. As experience grows, the amount of time required to stay on the same level decreases. And to define a casual player: a person that "plays for fun" and uses that as an excuse to behave like a retard(and pick gunner while there already is a gunner on the goldfish eventhough the captain explicitly tells him not to do that). Sadly this is different from the previous, more commonly used in 1v1 games, definition: A player that doesn't play in tournaments. By the latter definition you could for example be hardcore casual and hardcore competitive, something that with the much more modern definition provided to us by 14 year olds is not possible. In short, if you wish to enjoy the game for its entire worth, which means using your head, learning from mistakes and work to becoming a better player, you are by modern definition a hardcore gamer.

Look, I know other players can often be frustrating. That's the price you have to pay in a game that's 100% built around teamwork.

Yes, lets ignore the issue that sets most people in here off in ways that we preferably wouldn't admit. Lets just continue down this path until we end up with this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AFNZx4iQWw

This isn't Call of Duty, where even the 'team' gametypes basically just mean you have less guys to shoot at. You have to cooperate to win, and we can't start pulling some separate-but-unequal system that will divide people up in unfair ways.

So you believe it's fair that people. who want to enjoy the game the way its meant to be and are working towards a win. have to deal with poeple who just don't give a shit? Because I don't. And I'm not alone in this, there's enough people flaming and leaving because they simply haven't got the patience to waste 4 hours of their day on idiots.

And make no mistake- that's what such a thing would be. You don't like a player, then hit Ignore. We may not have a huge base, but surely there's enough people out there to put together a group of the right kind of people.

Ignoring players doesn't make them listen now does it? Whether Muse does it or the community does it makes no difference on the fact that hardcore players will segregate themselves from casual players. It has happened before in just about every game that didn't do it for them. This includes dota, this includes quakelive. Casual players aren't even touching games like Guilty Gear because they simply get destroyed by the motivated playerbase.

Hardcore gamers "enjoy a game on a lot more levels than a causal player does"? Give me a break.

Having been through the process, I can state from experience that there's a whole lot more to games than casual players can comprehend. Playing a game on casual level(by modern definition) is boring to me. I'm not saying you can't have fun or try weird things, but it's the motivation to try to win with it that makes it actually fun. So yes, hardcore players do enjoy games on a lot more levels than casual players.

71

General Discussion / Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?

« on: August 26, 2013, 06:01:53 pm »

Ok, PBG was a bit slow to start (If he wasn't new to the game how would he have known a 2nd gunner is bad?), however verbal abuse like that can't possibly be less worse. Albeit annoyed, I usually brush it off. But to put it simply compared to Team fortress or Starcraft our player base is really small. Upside people know eachother better, downside trolls have a larger impact by damaging an already small player retention.

That's why I'm a bit more vocal about these kinds of people here then mentioned above.

Those kind of people don't exist. Think about this for a second: how can you beat other people if you're not open to their playstyles? You can't analyze your opponent if you don't respect him. I have learned this the hard way already. What you got there is just a scrub that won't even compete on the levels a real player can. If you look at top level competitors in any game, you'll see them looking around like "I gotta be careful with that guy, and that guy, and he has some things that are interesting" etc. They look, they look around a LOT and they learn from it.

Also, the flipside of these hardcore gamers is that they in fact do enjoy a game on a lot more levels than a casual player does. Their heads are ticking "What happens if I do this? What happens if I do that? Can I make this work?"; they essentially become rocketscientists about the game they play. For them a world opens that tends to be invisible to the naked eye. Think about it, if you were watching/playing chess without knowing the rules or the strategies that people are inclined to use, would you expect to have as much fun as someone who full understands the game? For those that don't know, Chess is a really interesting game if you're willing to put time and dedication into it.

And besides Chess, there are other games that require a player to be dedicated to succeed and experience a high degree of fun. The most notable ones in today's world are: Quakelive/Quake3, Guilty Gear XX Accent Core, Starcraft (2) and DotA1. If you're not invested in any of the aforementioned games, you simply will not even enjoy it. Guns of Icarus is not different really. The more you invest into this game, the better you become and the more fun you will have. It's not a bad thing, it's actually a key component that any game with a decent lifespan has. As such, it's of course imperative that we keep all casuals in the same sandbox;)

72

Feedback and Suggestions / Mic feedback

« on: August 26, 2013, 05:47:47 pm »

Can we get a signal to noise indicator on our mic chats? It's been too often I've made myself audible for the entire district without my crew hearing me because my mute is on. There has also been server issues last weekend which we couldn't detect without the help of text chat. Having the mic indicator go from red to green on speech would be a tremendous help.

73

General Discussion / Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?

« on: August 26, 2013, 05:46:02 pm »

If you guys actually paid some attention, the gunner explained in the comments of that vid why he went off on him. It isn't just him, there's a lot of people who have their games ruined because someone just can't be bothered to listen. It happened to me today, it happened yesterday and the day before and... the day before. And it goes on. PBG was probably more about testing the community and tbh, I have had a good laugh at the gunner's response.

Now there's lvl1-3 games where newer players could learn at their own pace. Do they use this? No. Why? Because they either 'don't need to' or because the lvl1-3 games are filled with retards(by the definition of the word). I've had on several occasions had low level crew on my ship that are joining higher level games for just this reason. What we really want to do is make sure that those that 'don't need to' stay in low level games and those that wish to learn can have a proper opportunity to learn at their own pace. Maybe we can use the commendation system for this? If low levels enter higher level games and don't get enough commendations early on, they get sent to the beginner pool. Players so far have been very liberal with commendations, so when players manage not to get one, that is kind of a red flag.

Also, I'm pretty sure there's plenty that agree with me when I say that we need something against players that immediately ready up and tell us to stfu if we advise them differently. Because we are spending 2-5 minutes getting our crew in line and they are leaving mid game because they are losing. We look into a certain humbleness of newer players and we work with that to create knowledge, experience and confidence. And just like me, the majority of this community simply cannot stand arrogance.

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The Docks / Re: Hey there GoI! Do you like Cake?

« on: August 26, 2013, 07:04:48 am »

That got recorded?XD LOL

75

The Signal Tower / Re: TheRealDeadpool's win streak record break

« on: August 26, 2013, 05:43:09 am »

Tempting fate, it sounds like.

That said, if he ever wants to fight a challenge, as opposed to, y'know, pubstomping noobs, the clans will always be ready. Make match 121 be vs Paddling or something. Otherwise, it's like saying "I just set the record for killing the most level 2 goblins ever! This is a great moment!"

That said, if you really care about this stuff, more power to ya. Good luck on the record.

TheRealDeadpool... can't say I've played him.

I can't say I've seen you either. Where do the ducks quack?