16
Dev App Testing / Re: Gunner Improvements 2.0
« on: July 03, 2014, 06:09:31 pm »
RE: Slugs or Lugs?
It's Slugs. Fixed that.
RE: Gunner Want
That makes me happy.
It's Slugs. Fixed that.
RE: Gunner Want
That makes me happy.
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17
Dev App Testing / Re: Gunner Improvements 2.0
« on: July 03, 2014, 05:00:02 pm »
RE: Dualfecta with Armored Clip
Good point. Noted.
Good point. Noted.
18
Dev App Testing / Gunner Improvements 2.0
« on: July 03, 2014, 04:33:49 pm »
A huge update has been just pushed with a bunch of new functionality, features, and data changes.
Here's quick rundown of why new ammo is being tested. Buffing a gun on top of damage modifiers given by ammo can produce the highest DPS potential in the game. That said, many crews run all Engineers buffing their own guns. This puts Gunners in an underutilized position. Without introducing a slew of new mechanics or breaking paradigms we already have, the best way to improve the situation is to take advantage of the 3 ammo slots that only Gunners have by introducing new, very powerful, but very situational ammo. Hopefully, this will encourage crews to use Gunners and take advantage of the various ammo types they can carry. And to bring it back full circle, buffing gun functionality has been changed from increasing damage output and instead to reduce reload time. This means that buffing a gun for a Gunner reinforces the idea of changing ammo by making the Gunner better at their job. Buffgineers should still be a valid build and despite all these changes, a Buffgineer buffing their own gun with only 1 ammo type can still benefit by the implicity DPS improvement from reloading faster. Hopefully this is all in the right step.
Disclaimer: These are only proposed changes. Many skills still need a lot of work in terms of balance but the numbers should indicate the desired role for each.
Test with a grain of salt and try to give your objective, level-headed, and descriptive feedback. Simply saying that you like or do not like something is not enough detail. Please describe why and how you like or dislike the proposed changes and how they will influence your play style, for better or for worse.
There are many changes so take your time and play around with the changes.
Buff Tool:
- Buff to guns reduces reload time by 25% (from increase in dmg)
And a link to a Google Spreadsheet of all the Ammo changes. Cells that have a black arrow in the top-right corner denotes a change from Production. Hover over these cells to look at a description of what the values are on production.
https://docs.google.com/a/musegames.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0As7KK0xlixIbdENCVFEzZ09tUjktaFliLWxKekpDREE#gid=6
(You can also comment directly on each cell in the spreadsheet)
Let me know what your general thoughts are and what things need the most attention. Again, there are a lot of potential changes here so don't take everything too seriously. I'm not putting these into the game any time soon.
Here's quick rundown of why new ammo is being tested. Buffing a gun on top of damage modifiers given by ammo can produce the highest DPS potential in the game. That said, many crews run all Engineers buffing their own guns. This puts Gunners in an underutilized position. Without introducing a slew of new mechanics or breaking paradigms we already have, the best way to improve the situation is to take advantage of the 3 ammo slots that only Gunners have by introducing new, very powerful, but very situational ammo. Hopefully, this will encourage crews to use Gunners and take advantage of the various ammo types they can carry. And to bring it back full circle, buffing gun functionality has been changed from increasing damage output and instead to reduce reload time. This means that buffing a gun for a Gunner reinforces the idea of changing ammo by making the Gunner better at their job. Buffgineers should still be a valid build and despite all these changes, a Buffgineer buffing their own gun with only 1 ammo type can still benefit by the implicity DPS improvement from reloading faster. Hopefully this is all in the right step.
Disclaimer: These are only proposed changes. Many skills still need a lot of work in terms of balance but the numbers should indicate the desired role for each.
Test with a grain of salt and try to give your objective, level-headed, and descriptive feedback. Simply saying that you like or do not like something is not enough detail. Please describe why and how you like or dislike the proposed changes and how they will influence your play style, for better or for worse.
There are many changes so take your time and play around with the changes.
Buff Tool:
- Buff to guns reduces reload time by 25% (from increase in dmg)
And a link to a Google Spreadsheet of all the Ammo changes. Cells that have a black arrow in the top-right corner denotes a change from Production. Hover over these cells to look at a description of what the values are on production.
https://docs.google.com/a/musegames.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0As7KK0xlixIbdENCVFEzZ09tUjktaFliLWxKekpDREE#gid=6
(You can also comment directly on each cell in the spreadsheet)
Let me know what your general thoughts are and what things need the most attention. Again, there are a lot of potential changes here so don't take everything too seriously. I'm not putting these into the game any time soon.
19
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Design Paradigm, Game balance, and Gunner vs Engineer.
« on: June 18, 2014, 07:03:59 pm »
Just want to paint a clear picture of how things will shake down since not everyone has been up to date with this thread since the beginning.
20
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Design Paradigm, Game balance, and Gunner vs Engineer.
« on: June 18, 2014, 10:32:18 am »
Gunners don't have gunner tools. They have gunner ammo.
That's the rule for now until ammo testing is determined to be finished.
That's the rule for now until ammo testing is determined to be finished.
21
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Design Paradigm, Game balance, and Gunner vs Engineer.
« on: June 17, 2014, 05:00:55 pm »
@Richard LeMoon
Very interesting...
Very interesting...
22
Gameplay / Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« on: June 05, 2014, 03:05:46 pm »
Woops. yeah just forget i said all that.
23
Gameplay / Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« on: June 05, 2014, 03:05:17 pm »
oh was it?
Must be remembering something else.
Must be remembering something else.
24
Gameplay / Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« on: June 05, 2014, 02:27:03 pm »
Heatsink has not been buffed.
This is merely a test on Dev App. It's just lucky that the repair effect also works on ammo. We don't know the full implications of this until further testing. Again, it's just kind of lucky that it worked.
If you'd like to join Dev App testing, shoot an email to keyvias@musegames.com
sorry ignore this.. huge case of
This is merely a test on Dev App. It's just lucky that the repair effect also works on ammo. We don't know the full implications of this until further testing. Again, it's just kind of lucky that it worked.
If you'd like to join Dev App testing, shoot an email to keyvias@musegames.com
sorry ignore this.. huge case of
25
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« on: June 02, 2014, 02:24:17 pm »
IDeas from Milevan Faent:
Lochnagar
No changes to suggest for this one, it's already a niche ammo as is!
Heavy Clip
While this one is also sort of niche, it's also kind of dull. I see this used on maybe 2-3 guns in the game period. So, I'm gonna throw out the suggestion I've seen a few other people make, as it's also one I strongly agree with. Make Heavy Clip make the ammo heavier! This means instead of just reducing the recoil to 0 and the ammo by 25%, make the projectiles actually gain an increase in their drop speed. This should have no effect on the life of the ammo (that is, how long it takes before it stops existing automatically), but on any ammo that drops, goes up, or even has no drop, it now gains a drop.
Why? Because this actually has a HUGE impact on how many guns work! On some guns, like the shotguns (aka carronades), the effect is minimal as it would still almost work as it does now, just maybe hitting lower than it does right now and requiring a bit more work to aim. On guns like the Mines or Hades, suddenly the way it works has changed SIGNIFICANTLY! Mines are now depth charges if you fire down, dropping huge distances, and even if you fire up, the way they move has changed enough to change how this will place them! Perhaps you just hopped a mine over the enemy to land right on the opposite side of them, instead of it ending up way above or below them, due to the change in it's arc!
*new* Light Clip
With this change, I feel it's appropriate to create a counter-part to it, similar to Dragon Ash and Dense Slugs (dev app ammo that we will probably see eventually!). Light Clip works in the opposite direction of Heavy Clip. Instead of reducing the recoil, it doubles it! Suddenly, that very narrow blast is fired wildly, and no one knows WHERE it will go. In exchange, the ammo is increased by a decent amount (not sure how much, but probably more than the 25% that Heavy Clip reduces it by), perhaps the turn speed of the gun is increased slightly, but most important of all, bullets (or flying orbs of death, or mines, or missiles, or whatever the gun fires) are lighter, and thus float upwards for a brief time after firing (like 1-3 seconds at the most), rather than falling down like normal. This again changes the arc of the shot, but does not change the life of the shot.
Why? This change actually creates a new way to manipulate a gun's arc, and when combined with the other ammo types, creates whole new ways to use many of the guns, especially for a Gunner. Suddenly your gun can hit that little bit higher up than it used to be able to, and when combined with Heavy Clip, the reverse is true. Depending on what you're firing, you've suddenly got a LOT of new options!
Incendiary
I actually suggest this one not be changed. We need some not-super-niche ammo types for Engineers, and while this isn't exactly NOT niche, it's not really niche either. It's rather generic actually. I don't usually see it get used much though, so it may actually need a slight (SLIGHT!) buff.
Among the other ammo types I haven't covered so far, I'm either uncertain what (if anything) to do with them, or they are probably better off just remaining as they are as the more generic engineer ammo, so I'll leave this here for now. I'll probably touch on others if ideas come up.
If you have any ideas of your own, discuss them here! If you either agree or disagree with what I've said so far, speak up, I wanna hear from you! Let's gather a bunch of feedback to share with Awkm in his quest to improve gunners!
Lochnagar
No changes to suggest for this one, it's already a niche ammo as is!
Heavy Clip
While this one is also sort of niche, it's also kind of dull. I see this used on maybe 2-3 guns in the game period. So, I'm gonna throw out the suggestion I've seen a few other people make, as it's also one I strongly agree with. Make Heavy Clip make the ammo heavier! This means instead of just reducing the recoil to 0 and the ammo by 25%, make the projectiles actually gain an increase in their drop speed. This should have no effect on the life of the ammo (that is, how long it takes before it stops existing automatically), but on any ammo that drops, goes up, or even has no drop, it now gains a drop.
Why? Because this actually has a HUGE impact on how many guns work! On some guns, like the shotguns (aka carronades), the effect is minimal as it would still almost work as it does now, just maybe hitting lower than it does right now and requiring a bit more work to aim. On guns like the Mines or Hades, suddenly the way it works has changed SIGNIFICANTLY! Mines are now depth charges if you fire down, dropping huge distances, and even if you fire up, the way they move has changed enough to change how this will place them! Perhaps you just hopped a mine over the enemy to land right on the opposite side of them, instead of it ending up way above or below them, due to the change in it's arc!
*new* Light Clip
With this change, I feel it's appropriate to create a counter-part to it, similar to Dragon Ash and Dense Slugs (dev app ammo that we will probably see eventually!). Light Clip works in the opposite direction of Heavy Clip. Instead of reducing the recoil, it doubles it! Suddenly, that very narrow blast is fired wildly, and no one knows WHERE it will go. In exchange, the ammo is increased by a decent amount (not sure how much, but probably more than the 25% that Heavy Clip reduces it by), perhaps the turn speed of the gun is increased slightly, but most important of all, bullets (or flying orbs of death, or mines, or missiles, or whatever the gun fires) are lighter, and thus float upwards for a brief time after firing (like 1-3 seconds at the most), rather than falling down like normal. This again changes the arc of the shot, but does not change the life of the shot.
Why? This change actually creates a new way to manipulate a gun's arc, and when combined with the other ammo types, creates whole new ways to use many of the guns, especially for a Gunner. Suddenly your gun can hit that little bit higher up than it used to be able to, and when combined with Heavy Clip, the reverse is true. Depending on what you're firing, you've suddenly got a LOT of new options!
Incendiary
I actually suggest this one not be changed. We need some not-super-niche ammo types for Engineers, and while this isn't exactly NOT niche, it's not really niche either. It's rather generic actually. I don't usually see it get used much though, so it may actually need a slight (SLIGHT!) buff.
Among the other ammo types I haven't covered so far, I'm either uncertain what (if anything) to do with them, or they are probably better off just remaining as they are as the more generic engineer ammo, so I'll leave this here for now. I'll probably touch on others if ideas come up.
If you have any ideas of your own, discuss them here! If you either agree or disagree with what I've said so far, speak up, I wanna hear from you! Let's gather a bunch of feedback to share with Awkm in his quest to improve gunners!
26
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Lets Talk: Ammo
« on: June 02, 2014, 02:20:34 pm »
New ammo is already on Dev App.
Please redirect your ammo comments on the stickied thread.
Please redirect your ammo comments on the stickied thread.
27
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Design Paradigm, Game balance, and Gunner vs Engineer.
« on: May 27, 2014, 12:42:07 pm »
The easiest thing regarding Engineers and Buff Hammer is to tweaks what Buff Hammer does to guns.
Adding stuff like slots and whatnot is not easy.
Adding stuff like slots and whatnot is not easy.
28
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« on: May 27, 2014, 12:33:09 pm »
It's not a strict no, not just yet. A lot of fixing can happen once the skill gets effects. All that these skill raise is a yellow flag and that it'll be riskier to implement because if the visuals don't work, then we shouldn't have the the skill or whatever else it may be.
Impact, or the thing that does a knockback, is in fact a feature I asked for a while back and does work... but must be on the gun itself. Like the harpoon, it means it's a weapon that has unique functionality. Therefore a player can discover it via ship loadout or seeing it being shot in game. On that note, it's much easier to make an individual gun's effects (trails, explosion, muzzle flash) rather than apply those effects via a skill to any gun it is equipped to. This is because there are a few different types of guns that need effects applied (straight projectile, arcing projectile, raycast, particle). Furthermore, the effects applied by skills (the unique muzzle flashes) are most visible locally. In other words, when you're sitting on the gun.
Impact, or the thing that does a knockback, is in fact a feature I asked for a while back and does work... but must be on the gun itself. Like the harpoon, it means it's a weapon that has unique functionality. Therefore a player can discover it via ship loadout or seeing it being shot in game. On that note, it's much easier to make an individual gun's effects (trails, explosion, muzzle flash) rather than apply those effects via a skill to any gun it is equipped to. This is because there are a few different types of guns that need effects applied (straight projectile, arcing projectile, raycast, particle). Furthermore, the effects applied by skills (the unique muzzle flashes) are most visible locally. In other words, when you're sitting on the gun.
29
Gameplay / Re: 1.3.6 Harpoon Changes
« on: May 27, 2014, 12:23:13 pm »
Okay, you have it.
Force: 100,000N
Duration: 5s
Force: 100,000N
Duration: 5s
30
Feedback and Suggestions / Re: Call for Gunner Ammo Ideas
« on: May 27, 2014, 12:11:35 pm »
Let's try to keep the arguments down to a minimum. We can argue their potentially balance when and if they reach the testing phase.
In general, if there's no good way to counter something then it's generally bad design and can potentially aggravate the player. It's like games where you can get constantly stun-locked. Harpoon edges dangerously close to this kind of harassment. Ultimately, if there are cases like the harpoon the person on the receiving end must know that this can happen to them. Usually, you will know what kinds of guns other ships are using by both being in the match as well as looking at another's ship loadout. The concern about having these kinds of effects on ammo is that the information is more opaque. There are many more players to dig through while in match lobby to see what ammo they have, and the effects of the ammo may not exhibit itself clearly during gameplay. All these things combined create the feeling of being harassed and not having fun on the receiving end. This is a very important consideration when designing all aspects of the game.
The player needs to understand what is happening to them and why otherwise it will feel random
In general, if there's no good way to counter something then it's generally bad design and can potentially aggravate the player. It's like games where you can get constantly stun-locked. Harpoon edges dangerously close to this kind of harassment. Ultimately, if there are cases like the harpoon the person on the receiving end must know that this can happen to them. Usually, you will know what kinds of guns other ships are using by both being in the match as well as looking at another's ship loadout. The concern about having these kinds of effects on ammo is that the information is more opaque. There are many more players to dig through while in match lobby to see what ammo they have, and the effects of the ammo may not exhibit itself clearly during gameplay. All these things combined create the feeling of being harassed and not having fun on the receiving end. This is a very important consideration when designing all aspects of the game.
The player needs to understand what is happening to them and why otherwise it will feel random