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Messages - Adino

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General Discussion / Re: Is this kind of behavior acceptable in GOIO?
« on: August 26, 2013, 11:01:27 pm »
LTB kick function

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Institute a requirement-to-join function. A Captain would be able to set minimum level, required class, required mic usage, and required amount of thumbs-ups. Those things ought to be useful for something, anyway.


Problem solved. No kick function necessary.

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The Docks / Re: Hey there GoI! Do you like Cake?
« on: July 13, 2013, 08:37:42 am »
I'm in

 - Adino

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Some people want them, and others don't. I'm one that does. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be allowed to play without them, but I should be allowed to play with them. Same goes for the silly looking old-movie overlay. I can't stand that thing. A simple toggle in the options would solve both issues.

Turning off the old-movie effect is done by setting the Post processing option to false.

Wouldn't that have other graphical side effects? Post processing is a pretty big part of quality.

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We don't need health bars. I agree bars would clutter up the UI, also. However, discreet-grey numbers in small font would not ruin the game's immersion. Many games even have a function to enable or disable damage numbers.


Some people want them, and others don't. I'm one that does. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be allowed to play without them, but I should be allowed to play with them. Same goes for the silly looking old-movie overlay. I can't stand that thing. A simple toggle in the options would solve both issues.


I do think the pilot should get his/her own HUD, though, that displays the status of all ship systems. I think that'd be a lot more efficient than constantly scanning one's screen or twisting one's camera to check on things. It could be as simple as little icons in the bottom middle of the screen.

6
Damage indicators include the following:

-The damage log in the top left
-The balloon deflates as it takes damage
-Black smoke comes from heavily damaged/destroyed guns and engines
-A rather large black explosion when the hull armour goes down
-The ship visibly degenerates as it loses hull

It's still less than sufficient. Weapons smoke when damaged. Armor shatters after being destroyed, but we don't know how close it is until it finally goes boom. We don't have any clear readout as to the precise performance of our own ship's weapons.

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Quote
To memory, I've never noticed that damage log on the top left, and I'm sure a large percentage of the playerbase hasn't, either. I'd like to hear more about these "tons of visible indicators". The valuable ship data on the website is, indeed, difficult to access.

Really? It's, like, bigger than the chat box. In the top left corner when ANYTHING on ANY SHIP is destroyed or repaired, it will say so up there. Example:

Zenark has destroyed Hull Armor
Or
USS Enterprise has killed Crimson Chin (Yes Kirk, I used you)

Not to mention that with the new update, when Hull Armor is destroyed, a big black 'poof' appears around the ship with fragments falling down as if you actually see the Armor falling apart.

Those are not damage numbers, nor are they any indication of damage dealt whatsoever. I'd hardly consider them combat notifications. You can obviously see that you've killed someone, and since most matches are 2v2, you only need to look at the score to know if your teammate has died. It doesn't really matter who dies on the enemy team as long as one of them dies, unless you're in the heat of coordination and battle, in which case you'd probably notice which one dies, anyway.

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Also, with your list of types of players, I really feel bad for you and the experiences you seem to be having.  It almost sounds like a different game with a different player base than the one I am playing. 

Different times of day, and it's like a whole different game.  There are entire stretches of summer days when, for hours on end, it feels like 80% of players online are 12 year old boys.  This winds up the remaining 20% who will then snap at absolutely anyone that deviates from exactly what they want their crew to do.

I find myself quitting rather than snapping  :-\

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Hi AbinoAdino,
Couple of things real quick, with party and crew, their use are in the game manual, and we are planning to add more tooltips to help better direct people on what to do with different systems in the game.  If anything in the manual is not clear, please let me know! 

With Kick, I'm not saying that we don't do anything or don't care about the issue of trolling.  In fact, if you reread my comment, I did say that we are looking at kick for moderated matches.  Currently, there are already admin kick and afk kick, so it's not as though this function doesn't exist in the game.  However, as Smollett pointed out, it's hard to decipher trolls from new players or people who just happen to have a difference in opinion but are competent, etc.  Whether a player should be "kicked" or not is highly subjective for anyone.  And this can in turn leads to a lot of trolling.  Also, for a player to be kicked, it doesn't offer a permanent solution to trolling at all.  So while on the surface this sounds like an easy solution.  It is in fact pretty complicated, with potential to lead to a lot of negativity.  We are active in moderation.  In fact, we look at all reports all the time.  And we will continue to do so. 

A permanent solution would be to add a simultaneous report mechanic to the kick function. An investigation into the activities of the recipient of the kick would be in order, and if found to be warrant of action, it could serve as a legitimate report against trolling. Other games have done similar things, and it's very effective. There's more players than moderators, after all.

Whether people agree with it or not, we try to take a more balance approach, looking at both moderation and features that would improve and positively reinforce team play together.  If we have a sword in this game, we want to wield it very very carefully.  After all, you guys spend your hard earn money in this game, and we have to be careful about what we add to the game, and the risk of creating a negative experience.  With Kick, I can see it leading to negative experiences for a lot of people in game. 

That would be the purpose of kick. It leads to a negative experience that, hopefully, will not be repeated. There are many ways to approach someone who would abuse the Kick function. I would find less people abuse the kick function than troll, which, in turn, would make it easier and more effective to kick-report trolls and manually report kick abusers, given the off-balance number of each.


Trolls are a problem in every game and when someone is dedicated to ruining everyone else's experience more than likely they will find a way to succeed whether there is a kick option or not.

Yes but the more they are denied the chance, the more they won't troll. Get kicked from enough games and you won't have anywhere else to go, especially if the kick has a minute ban to it or something.

But I honestly have seen very little trolling in this game and with over 800 hours of time into it I feel like I can speak from a vantage point of experience.

It seems that your greatest frustration derives not from trolls but from the need to rely on teammates and those teammates sometimes being "incompetent".  And therefore you'd like to kick said teammates so you can supplement them with ones that help you win.

This is the main reason we don't have a kick system

Because you can't get rid of bad players you're left with two options.  Lose.... or teach.  The current mechanics actually encourage players to teach and help each other and encourage players to get better.  This fosters a fantastic community and enhances the team play element.

I've come across 8 types of players in my time in GoIO:
1. Experienced players
2. New players willing to learn but not communicate, and thus can't learn nor succeed
3. New players willing to learn and communicate
4. New players unwilling to learn but very willing to communicate (complain, rage, bicker, yack, etc.), and thus severely hurt the team and the game
5. New players that are completely unresponsive and unwilling to learn
6. Semi-experienced players that do whatever they want with complete disregard to their team and/or crew and their Captain's wishes, and throw insults and/or complaints whenever addressed, usually blaming their team's failure on everyone else when they're the ones not contributing
7. Total trolls that sit in guns without firing, hit the Captain with a wrench the whole round, start fights with crewmates, etc.
8. Absolute derps that join rounds as the wrong class and refuse to leave or help

Of all those types, #'s 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 should be kickable. Only #7 could undeniably fall under the troll category, and thus face repercussions via reports to customer service.
I have absolutely no problem with helping people, but I'll say that 70% of the noobs I come across are the #2, 4, 5, and 8 types.

In regards to some of the other points you made I disagree that there isn't incentive to communication.  The overarching goal of every match is to win and 9 out of 10 times the winning team had the best communication.  This in and of itself encourages communication.  I like many new players also thought that large ships were undermanned but more experience will show you that 4 people is more than enough for all the ships in the game and is essential for the game balance.

See, this is where Muse makes a fatal mistake. Assuming most (80% or more) new players actually pay attention to communication, success, team-play, or anything sophisticated, is detrimental to GoIO. For those players who don't know the game contains voice chat, or don't notice the chat window, or whatever keeps them from communicating, they need something that loudly says to them: "COMMUNICATION = SUCCESS".

I remember the tutorials being very under-developed. I see an opportunity to build a more complex tutorial and introduce new players to the fact that communication is vital in any team game.

As for damage log, there is a constant damage feed on the top left of the screen as well as tons of visible indicators of ship damage.  Furthermore lots of valuable weapon and ship data can be taken directly from the website http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/weapons/  http://gunsoficarus.com/gameplay/ships-3/ though admittedly it's a bit difficult to access.
To memory, I've never noticed that damage log on the top left, and I'm sure a large percentage of the playerbase hasn't, either. I'd like to hear more about these "tons of visible indicators". The valuable ship data on the website is, indeed, difficult to access.

I request a system that is right there, in-your-face, and easy to understand. For example, hovering over those damage bars in the weapon details could bring a popup over one's cursor that gives exact numbers and a description as to exactly how the weapon is supposed to be used and how it behaves under normal circumstances. Maybe even take it a step further and add some story text to it.
You are like everyone entitled to your opinion and seeing as the CEO of Muse read this even before I did, it's great that you've shared it as it will only help make this game even better than it is.
That's my intention.

If you do give GOI another chance, I'd recommend you join one of the existing clans.  Having a reliable group of people to play with will likely get rid of a lot of your main complaints with the game and give you a fresh perspective on the game in general.
Where could I find one?

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Hi Adino,
Great feedback and suggestions.  Firstly let me address a few things.  One is that, as a whole, the game's population has been growing over time.  Compared to the high of TGS videos spike days, yeah sure, there is a decline, but that sorta to be expected.  With more improvements that we do, we'll hopefully do better and better at keeping players and getting more and more people to enjoy the game.   

Secondly, a Kick feature we are deciding not to offer at the moment.  We are thinking about moderated and custom matches, but for now, we are not implementing a kick system after careful consideration.  We want to do more to encourage teamwork, and over the last 2-3 months, we have added commendations, party, crew formation, beginner matches, scripted tutorials, citizenship achievements, etc. to facilitate team play.  In the coming updates, we'll be working on different ways to facilitate team play and communications in matches.  Kick, in my humble opinion, does not facilitate team play, and can more likely lead to more trolling and encouragement of negative behavior in game.  As a creator of a moderated match though, I do think that Kick is what makes more sense there, and for that we are designing and spec'ing. 

Lastly, this is our 7th month of release, and so far we have been improving every step of the way.  And we haven't died yet.  Hopefully we can keep it going. 

And please don't take my reply the wrong way.  I absolutely appreciate your support Adino.  It's an honor to have everyone playing the game.  And while we have a different notion about Kick and about how to encourage team play (we opt for a more approach of encouragement rather than a a punitive one), I do fundamentally agree with you.  Improving team play and new player experience is the most important thing for us.  And we will do more. 

Thanks a lot, Howard

That's an all-fine-and-good approach to take, given that everyone wants to work together or be constructive somehow. That's a severe generalization in the online world. The added features are nice, but when I read the words "party" and "crew", I synonymise those with "team" in my mind, and I have a hard time believing I'm the only one. There isn't really a clear explanation of these new systems given, and I, for one, am very uncertain as to their purpose. I have a hard time believing I'm the only one, again.

I've played a lot of games in my time, and one thing I notice is that fair and forgiving games seem to have a lower general satisfaction among the playerbase compared to games with harsh, unforgiving environments. For example, STO vs EVE. Aside from the players themselves being in an unwanted situation, I'd sure feel sorry for the developers that have put themselves in the position to be blamed for it. In games were players are free to kick, free to troll, free to _____ and face the consequences from other players, the players can only blame other players. In games where players are free to troll and the developers have said "we're not going to do anything about this because we want to encourage people to stop rather than punish them", the developers are in a very blamable position.

I don't want to sound threatening, I'm just pointing out what a bad picture it is altogether. By allowing these things to happen, you're actually encouraging their continuation and growth, rather than letting other players deal with these upstarts. Ordinarily, someone unfavorable would eventually be so unwanted that he'd never find a team to annoy anymore. That's not possible in GoIO because he can stay wherever he goes without any ramifications.


That being said, I probably won't be playing GoIO, aside from checking out new updates, until a kick function is implemented. I'm genuinely annoyed out of any and all motivation to continue playing, and I really can't blame the other players.

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Now, I might get a lot of rage, hate, or whatever from posting this, but it's the truth.

GoIO's population has been decreasing, if it hasn't steadied-off yet from decreasing.

I am one of those players who has been a part of that decreasing population. In light of the new patch, I'd say the content is headed in the rightish direction. With a small development team and a lot of work involved, this is to be expected.

However, there are some very vital components missing from GoIO.


GoIO is a team-based game. This is undeniable. Team-based gameplay puts players in an environment where their success revolves around the cooperation and competence of fellow teammates. With that in mind, there is no function indicating a team leader, aside from the loose Captain position, and there is no function indicating a leader's control over a team. As well, without proper communication, a team is bound to fail. There is no encouragement of communication, and chat uses a system unfamiliar to most players. To top it off, most ships are grossly under-manned, with only 4 players per team, and 2 players being stuck on repair duty, while 1 is stuck piloting. This issue is especially prevalent with the larger ships that are built to sustain up to 4 people firing weapons at a time, yet, viably, only 1 or 2 can. This wouldn't be a problem if one weapon were capable of working sufficiently alone, but that's not the case. You need an armor ripper and a hull crusher to effectively compete. Faced with these situations, the random teams that assemble are very unlikely to succeed. This leaves a lot of players feeling angry and at a loss to succeed.

To summarize:
Issues
Incompetent teammates
Lack of communication
Trolls on the team
Lack of leadership
Undermanned large ships
Angry/hopeless new players

Possible solutions:
Add ability for Captains to kick under-performing or misbehaving team members
Add a level requirement for Captains (i.e. before captaining a team, one must be level 3 on any given class)
Add an option for Captains to set requirements for joining their team (i.e. only accepting level 3+ Engineers and level 5+ gunners, only accepting active mic users, etc.)
Prioritize mic volume to make other team members quieter when the Captain is talking
Promote communication with banners, messages, or some other form of promotion
Chance chat to conform to the usual T and Y system that most any gamer will be accustomed to
Make team size scale with ship size (i.e. a squid/pyramidion/gold fish would have 3 team members, a junker/spire would have 4, a mobula/galleon would have 5) OR make weapons more independent
Limit number of possible pilots on a team to 1

I want to stress how much a kick function is needed. The primary reason I don't play anymore is because Captains have almost no control over who gets on their team. With the dwindling population and less-than-sufficient socializing opportunities, the game quickly becomes aggravating and, I'd even say, unplayable.  It's not efficient to have to report someone to a GM every time they get a complete troll on their team who just sits in a gun and puts "lol" in chat throughout the whole round. We NEED to be able to kick people, otherwise a single player game would be less stressful.

Another thing I've noticed is that, not only are players inexperienced, it's very hard for them to learn much. There's not much feedback as to exactly what someone is doing. A combat log or combat chat would be useful, or even just floating damage numbers. Without some substantial indication as to what's really going on in combat, the game feels extremely trivial and will lack serious legitimacy when any experienced gamer plays it. The damage bars in weapon descriptions are a start, but we still don't know what they mean. We need more numbers.


GoIO could be great, but without systems that keep players interested and leaders satisfied, it will die before it has the chance.

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