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Messages - XtremeNameX

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Gameplay / Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« on: May 07, 2014, 06:44:20 pm »
Dementio:

Very good points. It probably shows just how much of a rook I am that I hadn't considered their various long range capabilities :D I officially declare (2B) ANSWERED!

Sammy:

Hah sorry to make you uncomfortable! My point wasn't that you were automatically right because of your record, but rather that your arguments have too much credibility to be simply refuted by things like "that's not my experience"

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Gameplay / Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« on: May 07, 2014, 03:20:15 pm »
After playing a good amount with my crew last night, I'm willing to call the flamer "ok" for public/low level servers. As long as we used 3 engis all with chemspray (which seems like an acceptable, but definitely the high end, of how much equipment we should need for dealing with 1 weapon) we were able to nullify the flamethrower for the most part and have a very successful evening.

Two (maybe 3) lasting concerns:

1) We were only going up against fairly rook teams. I'm still a bit apprehensive of facing a ship that knows what they're doing and uses a flamer

2) Do we know that it's not now OP in the competitive/high level scene? Obviously Sammy's opinion is not the end-all-be-all of this discussion, nor should it carry (significantly..) more weight than anyone else's. I'm sorry if I implied otherwise :-) BUT he does seem to be raising concerns about the new flamer in high level play, and I STILL haven't seen concrete responses. Since I'm nowhere near the competitive level, I'll bow out of this side of the discussion after this post and leave it up to Sammy and others to continue to argue if they see the need. However I would still like to see a response to either of these two issues he raised:

A. The mathematics of engi efficiency, as discussed here: https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3932.msg68360.html#msg68360
B. The necessity of chemspraying severly handicaps ships with more difficult layouts. In Sammy's words: "Galleons, Mobulas, and Spires are now non competitve. They're simply too difficult to effectively chem ahead of time due to awkward crew placement or spread out components." Again, I'm personally not at a level to accept or refute this claim, but I haven't seen many people offer concrete suggestions for why it's not a concern.

I'm glad that with the new flamer we get to see more squids (they're so squishy!) but if it's at the cost of fewer Galleons, Mobs, and Spires, I think something will still need to be changed.

FINALLY
I agree that the fire extinguisher could use a buff. Once my crew figured out the basic mechanics of the game, it became pretty clear that chemspray + awareness > extinguisher all day every day.

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Gameplay / Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« on: May 06, 2014, 07:32:45 pm »
I've got a more thorough response coming :) but one main question that sticks out (and I've been meaning to ask this whole thread):

- More nerf might push the flamer back to the corner of never used guns

Was the flamer really such a useless gun before? Obviously the glitchiness needed to be fixed, but as far as it's overall effectiveness, it seemed to have a pretty good role.

I'm brand new to following the competitive scene, but from watching the last few rounds of the Sky League finals there was at least one team (Overwatch) that used a flamer very effectively. They gave the Mandarins a better challenge than the team in the finals did. In addition, Sammy B.T. (whose recent & history of championships should earn him the title of "Foremost Expert" !) is in here arguing that the flamer DID have a role at the highest level.

IN ADDITION, in my 'noob'er games, I used to see the Flamethrower about as much as any other gun. And it seemed very well balanced-- especially with the relatively low level of play in public games, it could be very dangerous if the other team wasn't prepared for it with a good chemspray rotation. As many people have said here, the flamer was quite punishing/frustrating to unprepared teams before, and there were plenty of unprepared teams amongst the general population of the game. So even if Sammy is wrong (and I'm afraid the burden of proof is on you for that one!), and it was a bit too counterable for high level matches, it was at a pretty perfect level of 'counterability' for most of the population of the game. Why would we move away from that??

IN CONCLUSION: If it served it's purpose in public/lower level games (punishing but counterable), AND had a role in high level play (source: Sammy B.T., Sky League champion, Probably Top-5 Player, Leading Expert in Mathematics of Engi Efficiency), why would it need any kind of buff? Why would returning it's functional damage/flame output back to pre-1.3.6 levels be such a terrible nerf?

I get the sense that a lot of the pro-flamer people had a special place in their heart for the flamethrower, but regretted how counterable it was (...if the other team devoted 3+ tools just to counter it..) and now that it's very effective they're afraid of a return to how it was. But how can "how it was" be so bad if it worked well in noob games and took a team to the semi finals (& effectively the finals) of the most recent tournament?

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Gameplay / Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« on: May 05, 2014, 07:20:35 pm »
Just sit back for a second and watch the community play. You have been complaining about it the second the patch came out and even after the nerf came. I wonder, have you even tried play this game the same as before? Is that really not possible?
I still believe it doesn't matter. The gun got more useful and not more gamechanging. The old flamerthrower had the same problem, but because of chem spray people didn't care too much, why care now? What has changed?

In the experience of me + 3 friends (in the 1.3.6 and hotfix version) 'sitting back and watching the community play', every ship we face has at least one flamethrower on it. This one flamethrower dictates our ship's ENTIRE strategy to counter it. So in my experience (which I'd daresay is gonna be a lot closer to the 'average' or new player's experience :P) the flamethrower is prevalent, frustrating, and dictatorial.

It is the very definition of gamechanging!!

When ONE weapon demands an entire crew's equipment and strategy to counter it, that is OP. Whether or not this is the case at the highest competitive level should not be as important as the fact that it is VERY true at the low-to-average level of gameplay.

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Gameplay / Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« on: May 05, 2014, 07:10:16 pm »
Concerning normal matches, and I am saying this again just to make sure, we have to rely on the tutorials teaching new players what to do in case of fire.

No offense but this is a really terrible philosophy :P Any game developer can tell you that 90% of users will never read the manual/play the tutorial, let alone pay attention and remember everything it teaches you. Tutorials are just not a very effective method of instruction. Relying on a tutorial to teach new players a relatively complicated strategy isn't going to work, and if failure to understand/deploy this strategy results in the ultimate frustration of your entire ship being on fire, a lot of new players are going to prematurely pass on this incredible game.

To put things in perspective, and since the 'greenhorn' perspective is definitely needed :D Here's a little tangential tale: I'm a relative noob; my crew (all friends who got in on the 4-pack sale) and I have been playing fairly often for the couple months since the sale. We have a pretty good understanding of the mechanics, and can almost always go 5-0 against teams of randos. We, like almost everyone ever, didn't bother with the tutorial; just jumped in, excited to explore this game, and had no issue with that. This game is a great example of "simple to understand, hard to master" and we picked up on all the important mechanics within the first few games. Sure we had some frustration the first time we ran into a blimp popper, but it wasn't game-breaking; there were clearly things we could do to counter it (better communication with teammate-ship, keeping distance, clinging to every meter of altitude like its divine). That kind of introduction allowed us to fall in love with the game, and binge on it for hours whenever we get the chance.

The very first night the 1.3.6 flamer hit, we played 3 games and quit in frustration, and have only bothered assembling to play once since then. We did better in that second time, but only because we equipped every single crewperson to counter the flamethrower, and planned against it every second of every match. The presence of 1 single gun on the enemy ship dictated every aspect of our strategy. Now maybe our relative lack of experience played into this; maybe the elite players don't have to work so hard to deal with it. But I would guess that the majority of players are closer to our skill level than to the elite players' (who seem to be the biggest contributors in this discussion). And again, we are fairly decent-- couple months worth of experience, and a much stronger crew than most of the people we face in the game. How can you honestly expect any real noobs, let alone (and god forbid) first-timers, to figure out enough of how the game / metagame works to deal with the flamethrower? For such a frustrating weapon to be so easy and effective is just going to be a major deterrent to a growing community.

TLDR; The flamethower is just way too easy to use and hard to counter for anyone but the most coordinated and elite players. You can't count on a tutorial to fix that. If my team of relatively experienced friends was frustrated out of the game in 30 minutes, new players are in for a very rough time.

Does this end the discussion? Please let us be more professional and refrain from moving in circles or does somebody have something to say that hasn't been stated before?

I haven't seen anyone concretely respond to Sammy B.T.'s mathematical breakdown of why requiring engineers to chemspray + repair is an alarmingly huge efficiency slowdown. Maybe I've missed it; there are a few comments anecdotally suggesting otherwise, but this looks to me like an unexpected side effect of the new flamethrower that makes it even more powerful than intended... I don't think the discussion can be wrapped up until that's actually answered (and Sammy has numbers backing up his argument so any counter-argument should have them too :)

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Gameplay / Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« on: May 03, 2014, 04:56:18 pm »
We can argue about the finer details all day long, but the way I see it there are still two huge problems with the hotfix flamer (& in very preliminary testing, they still seem present in the dev/range-reduced build). & not to pick on you Janeway, but you touched on both points... just the wrong side of them ;)

it is honestly so frustrating for me to read these responses.  the flamer is a perfect example of not being OP in the SLIGHTEST in higher level games but perhaps being frustrating in lower level matches.  it's frustrating to me because here is a gun that could truly shake up the face of the competitive scene and give some much needed diversity to brawlers, but because people don't know how to handle fire in pub matches (or perhaps even with high level people who weren't around in beta and so haven't experience actual true balance with the flamers) it is gaining the reputation as OP nerf-bait...  please awkm give this change some time and let the community learn how to handle it, I promise you it will be seen as balanced soon enough...

I know the competitive scene is very important and a big thing on the forums, but in a game with such a small community this is the exact opposite of the approach we need! GoI will never grow if pub servers are easily dominated by frustrating flamer teams. It will take exactly 1 game against a double double-flamer pyra team for any new players to quit and never come back. Given that the flamer's main role is to be frustrating, I think we need to be VERY careful that it's not such a dominant choice against noob ships. I have no idea how we'd actually achieve this (Sammy, any ideas?) but it seems like the ideal 'nerf' would be something that makes it less commanding in noob games but more useful in competitive games in the hands of expert. Something to make it tougher to use (but still good when used correctly) would probably get close?

I have not felt overwhelmed by the flamer at it's hot fixed state when I have my crew with me.  we load up our heatsink rounds and chem spray our hull and balloons and laugh at the incoming fire.

Whether or not it is counterable shouldn't be the deciding factor in OP/fair... if the presence of a single weapon on board the enemies ship demands a specific engitool+ammo setup, that is not balanced. As Sammy said, even one flamer on the other team pretty much necessitates a chem spray/extinguisher for every crew member. Now if the enemy is rocking a double flamer or similar ship, obviously you should need to counter it with your crew's setup... but for 1 single weapon to have this effect should be the telltale sign that it is still too powerful.

TLDR;
1) The flamer is way too annoying, dominant, and easy to use in noob games-- this will frustrate a lot of first timers right back out of the game
2) A single flamethrower dictates the other team's tools. No one weapon by itself should be such a gamechanger

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Gameplay / Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« on: May 01, 2014, 09:10:08 pm »
I agree and have made both of these suggestions myself

I just figured I'd reiterate them in case awkm thinks the majority opinion is "hotfix changes are enuogh" :D

The sunny (flaming) side of this, Sammy, is the fact that now, instead of being killed really quickly by a Gatling-mortar combo, is that you get to witness the chaos (Yay!) and that Cake Vs. Ducks in competitive would be less of a Kobayashi Mrau situation (Not Kobayashi maru) and more of a balanced fight, along with an entrée of roast duck to be followed by a dessert of sweet pastries!

I know you're kidding around :) but let's not miss another good point that Sammy raises: a quicker ship can always, and rather easily, close and unleash the flames in a slower ship's face. Which would be fine and part of balance, except that the flamer is such a powerful & disabling CQC weapon that the slower ships' other advantages (more firepower or armor) are rendered useless very quickly.

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Gameplay / Re: 1.3.6 Hotfix Flamethrower
« on: May 01, 2014, 06:34:21 pm »
This new one definitely is closer to balanced, but I really think it needs another slight change. I mean, if putting 1 weapon on my boat forces the other team's entire crew to re-build their engi equipment just so they can handle it... that seems OP.

I'd say either bring in range or lower through-chem fire damage. Possibly both, but in any case it should just be a very minor nerfing.

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Hi! I sent you an email trying to sign up my team but I haven't heard anything back yet? Just wanted to make sure you have the SSMR signed up!

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