Messages

1

Gameplay / Re: Achievement system flaw

« on: May 15, 2013, 06:07:58 pm »

Ah, I misunderstood what Clara Skyborn just tried to say and had to delete an entire post. XD

Anyways, thank you for lending and ear and filling us in Clara. Since you are asking for our input I think achievements like "destroy 20 goldfish" are not the sort of achievements that should block your progression. You have no way of controlling what ships you are playing against unless you have friends so completing these sort of tasks can take a very long time. Also, as I have mentioned before, I do not think it is right to force a player to get good at ships in a certain order when it comes to the experience track for the pilot. The goldfish might not be a person's strong suit and simply being bad at just one ship may bar a person from ever progressing further. It is a shame that it seems that the progression achievements will remain gated. It is frustrating when you know you have accomplished the locked achievements a dozen times over but you are not making any progress just because you can not complete one or two achievements still in your way. This I feel is what causes people to do unnatural play, because they want to start working on getting those time consuming achievements out of the way sooner rather than later.

2

Gameplay / Re: Achievement system flaw

« on: May 15, 2013, 04:37:45 pm »

Glad I found this topic before making one of my own!

I personally like the way the leveling system works in this game but some friends of mine dislike it a good bit, so I'm definitely interested in how everyone else feels.

I like that it isn't a linear task of just playing game after game and that you need to do a bit more to gain levels, it makes leveling more interesting and also it gives achievements purpose (I never really found much interest in achievements before). Its good that they encourage people to do different things, the main negative that I see is on the extreme end of that though. People desperately trying to get achievements so they can level can cause some confusion for people playing with them and throw everyone off. A primary example of this was when I played with a gunner that was running around not accomplishing much when our ship was getting much, after the game I learned this was because he had a fire extinguisher for his tool so he could get a multi classing achievement.

Its alright if I know to work around things like that, and most of the other achievements are for the most part ok, but things like that can be a bit painful to deal with when the person trying to get achievements doesn't even say anything about it.

I do not mind having to do achievements to rank either. I just want them to be opened up to be done in any order, that way I do not have to feel like I have to do them right away so that my games can have any rank progression.  Sure I can play the game with whatever lay out I want..but the longer I wait to do what is being required of me the longer I will have to wait to rank up, which makes all the effort and good game play I do otherwise seem like such a waste..

3

Gameplay / Re: Achievement system flaw

« on: May 15, 2013, 04:26:11 pm »

Yes, I knew I would get one of you types who will just simply say. "Welp, you suck, get better."( I mean namely you Knoxi) You did not even look at the entire conversation as a whole, just read my last post with one point and did not even bother to read everything before making a condescending comment. (Did it make you feel good? XD) My whole point you did not bother reading earlier is that the achievement system is only reflecting people who go out of their way to grind, and that is it. Yes I suck at the goldfish apparently and I should improve on that..but why should I have to improve on that right now at the very start before I am allowed to get to the other achievements that I might be much better at and more capable of doing? This is not a reflection of my abilities as a whole at all but my abilities at one single ship. Not being able to do one achievement should not stop me from attempting others to show that I can be a good pilot, gunner, or engineer. This is why I would like to see the achievements opened up to be done in any order so I can go do the achievements I am capable of and be able to do them naturally as I play naturally..without having to go out of my way to try to accomplish them just so I can get to others I want to try. Next time, please try reading a bit more, okay Knoxi? This was never just about me and what I want either, I am not even the one who started this thread XD and I know others must feel the same way.

As for why I even want the ranks. Well there are several reasons. For one I am a completionist, I want to get everything I can in a game, but I would prefer to tackle things naturally first and then once I have a lot of experience at the game then go challenge myself, not be forced to do something I do not want to do from the very start when I am supposed to have options available to me. Second, I like having a good rank to show that people can trust me. This is even more important to me since I love being captain and do not have a mic. A higher rank to some people will give me some measure of their trust if they never played with me before. Also I will have less arguments about who should be captain or not if I had the rank to back up that I can be competent.

Look, some people are acting like I am being entitled or selfish about this. But in the very beginning all I was doing was putting input into what I saw was a mistake that could be easily fixed. I doubt anything might ever really be done about it but I still wanted to at least say something and make what I feel are some good points. Maybe by doing this I can help avoid this problem in the adventure mode which I am looking forward to. I am just making a debate here, so please, stop being condescending about this just because you do not agree with me. Thank you.

4

Gameplay / Re: Achievement system flaw

« on: May 15, 2013, 10:14:04 am »

Just to point out something to the people who said this system is there to encourage people to broaden people's game play. I had 34 kills and 10 deaths using the spire. But now that I am using the goldfish because I am pretty much obligated to do so in order to get an achievement out of the way..I now have 34 deaths. People have said this was meant to have us explore new ships and new tactics..but so far all this has done is frustrate the heck out of me! I want to rank up and I want to get this achievement out of the way, but I have yet to kill a single ship using it. I just want to play with the ship I want without feeling that I will never reach higher ranks just because I can not manage to win with one ship. Or because I will never be able to destroy 20 components by ramming in one map >_> I mean really. Why are going through these headaches the trails we must do through to gain rank?

Please, I really want to hear from a dev on why they make people complete frustrating achievements to make progress in ranks. It is not fun to do and that completely defeats the point of playing a game.

(EDIT): I just wanted to also add that I feel sorry for the people who have to crew with me while I toil away at getting achievements. It can not be very fun for them either..but what choice do I have if I want progress?

5

Gameplay / Re: Achievement system flaw

« on: May 14, 2013, 01:51:36 pm »

Here is semi obvious idea. Why not let achievements just be achievements (like in other games) and have the cosmetic awards be the only thing given for doing them? Is it too late to have ranks be awarded in some other fashion? One that better depicts how experienced or skilled a person is rather than how willing they are to grind achievements?

6

Gameplay / Re: Achievement system flaw

« on: May 14, 2013, 01:45:21 pm »

At least one of the new (misc) achievement paths isn't order-dependant. So it shouldn't be a problem to convert some of class paths to be like that... if that's what they want anyway.
If people could basically do the easier/more convenient things without first doing the harder/more troublesome ones first, that'd mean people would get achievements quicker overall. This would mean people go up in levels quicker, and then perhaps get stuck because they're left with the annoying ones. This doesn't really seem like an improvement to me. At least now you can tell by someone's level that they've put some time into it, which is more likely to correlate to an improvement in skill than if they had just rushed through the achievements they could...

Sorry, I can not say I agree with you there. All the "time into it" you mentioned was just a person's effort of grinding the achievements. It does not really reflect well how that person can play the game normally. We'd be much better off with a ranking system that does not require a person to grind achievements to really get anywhere.

7

Gameplay / Re: Achievement system flaw

« on: May 14, 2013, 01:38:21 pm »

It only seems angry cause I had to say the same thing twice. Not really passionate, just trying to be clear.

The example I gave was obviously extreme. Yes it's going to take a long time to level that way. My point (again to reiterate... sigh...) was that even a completely inflexible person who purposely avoids achievements is going to eventually reach level 6. This wasn't including restricting maps and game types because that's just getting ridiculous.

To Gato, yes. Achievements make people useless sometimes. Post patch balloon buffing anyone? However I was solely addressing SilentHaven's point that achievements forced you to play stuff you didn't want to in order to rank up. At a certain point, yes they do. But by then you'll be so far into the game you'll probably have gotten bored of your Hwatcha/Gatling Spire and started to at least try different pilot tools.

Then you missed the entire point of the thread. Some of us are saying that the achievements require us to be too flexible. Making us go out of our way to achieve very particular missions in a very particular order to the point we often can not play how we want if we hope to make any progress in rank. All we want is for us to be able to achieve them out of order so that we are more likely to make headway in some of them as we play naturally, not be forced to make changes to our normal game play to try to meet them as they come available.

Sure, I can play my spire how I want anytime. But each time I do it will not help me much in gaining rank. As I said in many ways already, I would only make any real progress in gaining rank by stopping my preferred method of play and directly making an effort to complete the challenges currently open and available, any other, less focused, effort would yield only miniscule results by comparison.

All this means that ranks represents who spent more time grinding achievements rather than who had played the game more and is more of a veteran. To me, this is an issue.

8

Gameplay / Re: Achievement system flaw

« on: May 14, 2013, 01:15:58 pm »

Here is something to think about. If people are saying that rank does not matter, maybe that is because rank is not accurately displaying a person's experience and skill in their role? After all, we had just established that a person could have 318 victories under their belt and only be rank 6 in a single role. Yet I am sure a person can be much better ranked with only half as many games if she/he went out of her/his way to laboriously grind through the achievement in order. Maybe fixing the achievement system will give the ranks true meaning again?

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Gameplay / Re: Achievement system flaw

« on: May 14, 2013, 12:47:50 pm »

Sorry Shrinkurex, I will tone it down a bit. I just get passionate when I am in a debate.

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Gameplay / Re: Achievement system flaw

« on: May 14, 2013, 12:37:07 pm »

Also, how many of those 28 achievements you mentioned are reachable with out being forced to use some weapon or tool you might not have wanted to use otherwise,

EVERY. SINGLE. ONE.

That was the entire point of my post. You can get to level 6 without having to use anything specific ever.

EVER.

Conservatively, and very averagely, based off my gameplay that's 50 hours or so of piloting and nothing else.

No one's forcing you to do anything. Others have already covered this. But it still doesn't matter cause you could fly a Spire with the same loadout every single game without ever using a pilot tool, engy tool, or ammo, and still reach my level.

Why even care about 1 locked Spire achievement when you have 28 achievements that you get just by playing the game. Hell most of them you'll get accidentally.

Make sense this time?

Right, well lets make what you said even clearer. 10 of those 28 achievements (the career ones) require you to play a minimum of 319 games to finish them all. I would have to play that many games plus complete the other 18 achievements just to get to level 6 for one of the roles. Let me also point out that 10 of that remaining 18 (the victory ones) require you to win 318 games to complete them all.

So rewording it another way..just to get to level 6 in one role in the way you are suggesting I would have to play a minimum of 319 games, lose only once and also complete 8 other achievements. I do not know about you, but after all that I would hope to be a bit more than a level 6 by then. This is why I feel I have no choice but to go out of my way to finish the other achievements, doing things otherwise would take ludicrously long for very little pay off and my rank would never match my experience and ability..

Of course if I was able to do the achievements in any order. Then most matches I play should contribute in some way towards my ranking progression and not just by my number of games and victories.

11

Gameplay / Re: Achievement system flaw

« on: May 14, 2013, 12:07:10 pm »

Some of them are oddly specific.  Maps 1 for pilot requires you to ram (Ehh, ok) 20 components (A fair bit, but doable) on Dunes (?Que?) for an entry level achievement in that line.  The requirements are so specific its kinda creepy.

I understand that leveling all at once would defeat the purpose of the achievements a bit, but if I might put forth a suggestion: Activated Achievement Progress.  Or something spiffy sounding.  Basicly, you get to choose which achievements your shenanigans will count towards.  Sod the goldfish, want to pop baloons on the spire?  You can hit that first!  Just getting off a CP binge?  Roll up a DM based achieve.

The offset to this is already in place; many of the achievements become more difficult to pull off/simply take more time than earlier achievements.  If youre a sucker for punishment or you think the current achieve doesnt suit you, just switch it out, itll make the game a bit more interesting while suggesting new shenanigans to try.

And it will still make you fly the damn goldfish if you want to hit pilot lv11

Seriously, ramming 20 parts on dune makes me want to stab eyeballs.

Thank you! It is achievements like that one that also encourages a bunch of people to purposely throw away a game just so she/he can meet an achievement requirements. Making people have to ram people in dunes a bunch of times before he can move on to other things will just make a captain do nothing but ram in dunes until he finally meets that requirement, which is pretty unfair for the rest of his crew stuck for the ride.

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Gameplay / Re: Achievement system flaw

« on: May 14, 2013, 12:01:43 pm »

I would like to point out that nothing is gained from leveling, well nothing beyond some cosmetic items. So the idea of being "forced" is a bit contrived. If your intent on having fun in your Spire then have fun in your Spire. Nothing is stopping you from doing that. Chances are you will fly other ships. You said it yourself that in the future you will most likely be ready to try new ships. When you ready to do that then that’s the time to try some of those achievements.

Something else to note is that achievements are just that, achievements/challenges. Challenges for you complete at your leisure, not a stringent requirement of gameplay.

Contrived? "having an unnatural or false appearance or quality."

No I am not making stuff up or just pulling things out of thin air here. I really feel forced to go through these achievements in order because rank matters a bit to me and I hate the idea of playing matches without making any progress that mirrors my experience and ability. I do not know about you, but I am much more likely to trust a player to play out her/his role if he is a high rank and will often choose a person of a higher rank to team with then a person with a lower rank. That is the entire purpose of ranks after all, right? To know who is the more veteran players? How is being concerned about how rank is earned a "contrived" concern?

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Gameplay / Re: Achievement system flaw

« on: May 14, 2013, 11:52:35 am »

I wanted to reiterate what I am trying to say one more time. I have no problem being encouraged to do all these different things that take me out of my comfort zone eventually. That is great, they are challenges and being challenged is what I want in a game. What I do not like is that if I ever want to gain any rank  I have to face these challenges in a certain order that heavily dictates how I should play and that playing in any other challenging way before the system says I am ready is technically a waste of effort.

14

Gameplay / Re: Achievement system flaw

« on: May 14, 2013, 11:36:52 am »

Don't want to fly a Goldfish? Don't want to use ANY pilot tools? Don't want to be forced to use ANY weapon you don't want. Don't want to get off the helm and repair things on the ship?

Congrats, you have 28 achievements still available to you. That's enough to make you a level 6 Aeronaught plus change. Coincidently that's my level. 140 hours of playing (Granted I have engineering and gunning achievements but I never farmed these, also I'm a serial idler).

AND AND AND this is only if you're a giant stickler who never wants to use a Goldfish, Pheonix Claw, Kerosene, Hydrogen, ever hit anything with a mallet EVER, use a Carronade, or use a Galleon. Do any of these and you can usually add another 5 to 10 achievements.

As Sunderland said. The gradient is there to encourage diversity and better play. Kind of like an expanded self taught tutorial. And after 140 hours of playing the game if you're still interested then theres a good chance you'll want to start experimenting.

As I said before. Can't we be made to experiment later rather than now? Maybe when I am 140 hours in I might be ready to try other ships but right now I am a few hours in and I would really rather play the ship and lay out I prefer and I am comfortable with. I am a "newbie" after all, why should I be forced to use a ship I may suck at? Also, how many of those 28 achievements you mentioned are reachable with out being forced to use some weapon or tool you might not have wanted to use otherwise, or make you play in a map or game mode you might not have wanted to? I would not mind having to do it all eventually, but why decide for me that I must do them first while I am just getting into the game? From what I see the only achievement trees that do not in some way force how you would play the game are the career ones. All the others contain requirements that force you to change how you would otherwise play and you will have to grind and go out of your way to get them done first if you want to keep making progress.

(edit) For example, I like to use the spyglass, tar barrel, and kerosene with the pipe wrench to fix things. But nope, very early on I will be required to use the mallet instead and be "encouraged" to try out the phoenix claw and hydrogen canister even though they are pretty much unhelpful for a Spire captain...get where I am getting at?

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Gameplay / Re: Achievement system flaw

« on: May 14, 2013, 11:09:51 am »

Beyond being forced to use ships and equipment in a particular order. The achievement system also makes you play the same map a few times in a row thanks to the map achievements. All players must first play Dunes and then Scraps, and then Water Hazard, etc. etc. Doing these maps out of this order gets you nothing. It does not matter if you played scraps 100 times, you still have to win there 8 more times later if you had not yet won 6 matches in Dunes. This makes a player feel like they have to get the maps out of the way and grind play them in order if rank matters at all to them, otherwise you get the feeling of achieving nothing...