Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Urz on May 12, 2013, 06:24:09 am
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If you haven't seen the BFS vs Destructoid match from yesterday's Cogs, here is a timestamped link to the event in question:
http://www.twitch.tv/qwerty2jam/b/402287974?t=100m40s
Summary: BFS's squid survives a 1v2 situation on Canyon Ambush with 10% remaining health, books it back to their spawn to meet up with the respawned junker, and then proceeds to kill his own ship with tar. This allows him to respawn with full health, without giving any points to the opposing team.
Most people's immediate response (as was mine) would be something along the lines of: "that's pretty dumb, that should not be allowed". It's a valid response, and banning the tactic might be the correct decision. I would however like to explore the other side of the argument.
Suicide-ing your ship has risks. You're completely vulnerable while attempting, and also leave your teammate stranded while you're respawning. If it remains an allowed tactic, teams will be aware of this option, and will be incentivized to chase down damaged ships, rather than say, camping at their spawn and waiting for them to come back. If you're expecting a ship to attempt suicide, a stealth approach with the goal of "last hitting" may become a valid counter, giving you the "free" kill of the low ship and probably also their teammate. Success rate would vary a lot based on positioning and what map is being played, since you will announce to the server that you are killing components.
Just wondering what everyone else's thoughts are.
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I haven't watched the match, but....
Shouldn't deathmatch count deaths, rather than kills?
So if your ship is destroyed for any reason, the opponents get a point. This would mean suicide would be less of a tactic.
As far as I know, if they had purposely smashed into a wall to suicide, rather than using tar, this would have counted as a kill for whichever ship last damaged them (even if some time has passed and any damage has since been repaired). So, accidental death by crashing gives the opponents a point. Why not simplify it even more by saying any death gives the opponents a point. There isn't any games (yet?) with more than two sides, so this shouldn't be a problem. If not, I'd say something needs to change with the friendly fire code or something, so that damage from your own tar doesn't reset the who-hit-you-last thing.
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Hmm, in terms of a sense of 'morality' behind it, I'd say it's by nature gamebreaking- First off, I have to say that was pretty ingenious. However, it's a dirty trick, really- it's not the same as some Moba suicides, where you don't feed the enemy champions, it's more cheating your opponents out of a direct game objective. Looking at the same example, death doesn't count as much in Lol or Dota as it does in GoIO, as, of course, we're playing deathmatch. Even in other deathmatch games, such as CoD, death never counts anywhere near as much, as the score is so low and kills so hard-fought. So to use such a tactic should be discouraged, as it's a malicious style of playing that breaks the current agenda of teams. In fact, this tactic could be incredibly exploited:
A game on Canyon Ambush, as in the match, could see several hit-and-run attacks from Squids. During these encounters it is likely, if both teams are Cogs standard, that both teams drop armor and lose some permahull. However, this is where the tactic really messes the game up. Once the friendly Squid takes enough damage it kerosenes to the spawn, spewing enough tar behind it to halt a quick charge from the enemy. It then proceeds to kill itself. It comes back with full permahull. in this current situation, you've got 'something for nothing'- all of the tactics and damage dealt by the enemy counts for naught, while the enemy ships have sustained permanent damage. Furthermore, If the enemy team aren't running Squids themselves any of their attempts at suicidal tactics are much less viable, as it simply takes too long and other ships aren't nimble or fast enough to leave the combat zone and buy the time to kill themselves. This presents teams not able or not willing to use this tactic at extreme disadvantages. The game works as a battle of attrition- I drop your hull for 6 seconds, and in that time I afflict damage to your permahull. Everything else can be repaired, but at the core of the meta is dropping the hull as fast as you can, and dealing as much damage to the permahull in a short window of time. This tactic removes the 'perma' nature of the hull, and this therefore breaks combat as this tactic is probably limited to only Squid users.
The main issue, besides morality, which will disappear in any Cogs team going all-out to win, is that it puts the entire game on its head. If the tactic is green-lit, I'll be amazed if every team doesn't try it, or at least consider it. A Junker/Squid combination could perform this tactic easily, and the Challenger Teams will put in a lot of work to optimise this tactic to their advantage.
This tactic does add a new dimension to gameplay, giving some validity to retreat tactics. However, the game is, again, a battle of attrition, and so simply wiping the slate clean goes against its nature.
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I second Wazulu!
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Damn. I didn't know it was as easy as tar-ing yourself to death. I had noticed that if a friendly somehow 'gets the kill', it didn't count towards or against anything on the score. Before the latest big patch, I was working on a strategy involving a team kill ram to get hull health back, but somehow never even considered tar barrel.
Personally, I say exploit the hell out of it til it's patched. Thats how games of this scale should work. If it is included in game mechanics and gives you an edge, do it.
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To me an exploits is.exactly what this is since goes in the face of the way the game was intended to function and is the sort of behavior that is often reported and really has no place in a competitive match.
Hopefully Muse will take note and hot fix the game immediately so it is no longer possible.
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In fairness, it's not against the Cogs rules, nothing is. It should really have a section about exploits and cheating.
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To be honest, I don't see anything wrong with it. Its a tactical repair, after all. The game is revolved around destroying the other team's ships and getting points for it, so, if its in one's power, why not get back to full health? However, if they get tapped with an enemy weapon during the event, doesn't the other team get a point?
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I think it was a clever trick because there was no rule against it, but I think there should be a rule against it because it's cheap.
I feel that Destrutoid earned that damage on the squid.
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I think it was a clever trick because there was no rule against it, but I think there should be a rule against it because it's cheap.
This is what I meant. Not that exploits are good. If there is a developer that says 'hey please don't do that, we're working on the patch' or there is an explicit rule in any tournament or friendly match, then by all means the tactic is off the table. Until then, the times that a suicide move is valid and available, I say do it.
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To be honest, I don't see anything wrong with it. Its a tactical repair, after all. The game is revolved around destroying the other team's ships and getting points for it, so, if its in one's power, why not get back to full health? However, if they get tapped with an enemy weapon during the event, doesn't the other team get a point?
I'll reffer you to Yiski's post why it's wrong (he wrote it more elloquently that I ever would).
If people are morstly aginst it, Swallow will supposedly add it to the COGS rulles that such tactics are against the rulles.
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Where's Yiski's post? I can't follow more than one thread, I'm terrible at organisation as is.
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If someone suicides, fine let them. But put a big blinking red message across the top of the screen "____ just suicided" and make the respawn timer 45 seconds. This would create an interesting scramble mechanic for those double team kills, and if his teammate had to run away then he would be alone at the respawn. Would make it an interesting tactic at least. OR just make a rule against it.
IMO this is something a lawyer would pull, the kind of lawyer that defends murderers and wins, he just gamed the system. If you missed the point I'm saying it's a slimy, sleazy move.
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QQ all you want but if you go about banning that then how about banning sniper matches entirely? You seem to like aggressive teams but continue to let camper teams rule the matches. Hows that right? Whats more exciting, an engineer battle with sniper teams or a pilot and crew battle with aggressive teams? Battles with actual tactics and ambushing or sitting in one spot pew pewing?
I've known about the trick for a few weeks and have tested it mostly in practice. I've kept the trick as a reserve trump card not planning to use it until facing range battles. But I haven't kept it secret. I've mentioned to many of you the possibility of using it. Now suddenly angry when I do?
So by your standards I should have offered up my slowmo crippled ship to Destructoid as a free kill? Gimmie a break. I'm not giving enemies free kills just because Muse can't patch or fix the game properly. Or just because of your concept of chivalry maybe? For one it did put us at a disadvantage. Specially cause I had no idea if the other team was rushing into the canyon after us. If you notice in the match, they do come in by the time I respawn. Had they rushed in sooner they would have gotten Brick alone or even me in the process of taring myself.
Had there been no slowmo I wouldn't have used it. That is a fact. I told Brick at the time to retreat and that I would use it because it was too much of a liability with 10% hp under those conditions. If you notice I got down that low again thx to slowmo but I didn't pull back and try it once more. Frankly I didn't think it would work a 2nd time if the enemy was wise to it.
You don't like it, fine...thats your problem. I don't regret using it. Any ship in the Cogs running tar can do it. At the very least I hope this raises awareness to it. Change the flow of some of those long drawn out battles. I've never professed to be a chivalrous pilot. I use a lot of tricks, I fight dirty whenever I can, and I'm known to cause teams to rage mid match or desert the lobby after. Don't like that, fine, stick to your stand up fighting...but I'm not. You better have good spotters...thats all I'm gonna say.
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Where's Yiski's post? I can't follow more than one thread, I'm terrible at organisation as is.
Oh fuck, sorry Wazulu. I meant your post, I have no idea how I mixed you two.
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So by your standards I should have offered up my slowmo crippled ship to Destructoid as a free kill? Gimmie a break. I'm not giving enemies free kills just because Muse can't patch or fix the game properly.
This would be a valid point if it wasn't for the fact that it would not have been a free kill since Destructoid was the one who put the initial damage on you. Sure destructoid would only need to do about 10% of a kill to get a point but that is because they already did the 90%
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You can never preemptively ban Exploits/glitches like this as who is to say what is a deliberate mechanic and what is a glitch, but in this case it doesn't feel like something that's within the spirit of the game.
I tried it out today while flying a Pyra, and it was easy as pie, and if you got it down, and aimed for a flat bit of ground wouldn't take a moment. (Sorry Smollett et al!)
I don't feel like wading into the ethics of competitive play, but its something that made me feel shitty for doing, and I would support putting on a ban list for future cogs matches (Maybe just say no deliberate suicide? Might be some debate about how deliberate something is, but in practice I think it would be easy to tell if someone killed themselves on purpose).
Also, I don't think anyone was QQ'ing, did you really expect for there not to be a thread on the forums about it if you did it in a cogs match? Eh, what's done is done I suppose.
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Hmm, I'm mostly replying to Gilder here, as I'm sensing some bad blood, which I don't want at all. My post focused on how it changed the game around- in some ways I admire the trick for its sheer ingenuity and for a one off gamble it was pretty awesome. What I was getting at was this type of gameplay becoming commonplace, as teams could see it as viable.
In short, I bear no judgement on the people involved, but more on the consequences of the action itself for future games. Sorry if I came off heavily damning, it's just I imagined myself in a situation such as that with Paddling or MNS, and in that situation I probably wouldn't have stood for it.
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I'm sorry but it's about ship flying and tactical planning, not finding a loophole in the system and gaming it.
Maybe it's because I played competitive sports all my life, but I couldn't pull something like that in a competitive situation without feeling dirty. Now if I was flying against friends and wanted to troll them then I would use it and just keep using it over and over.
In a competitive set up that tactic is as bad as wiping paint in paintball.
I'm not going to attack someone personally because hey you did game the system and find a rule loophole and good on ya, now it needs to be fixed.
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QQ all you want but if you go about banning that then how about banning sniper matches entirely? You seem to like aggressive teams but continue to let camper teams rule the matches. Hows that right? Whats more exciting, an engineer battle with sniper teams or a pilot and crew battle with aggressive teams? Battles with actual tactics and ambushing or sitting in one spot pew pewing?
I've known about the trick for a few weeks and have tested it mostly in practice. I've kept the trick as a reserve trump card not planning to use it until facing range battles. But I haven't kept it secret. I've mentioned to many of you the possibility of using it. Now suddenly angry when I do?
So by your standards I should have offered up my slowmo crippled ship to Destructoid as a free kill? Gimmie a break. I'm not giving enemies free kills just because Muse can't patch or fix the game properly. Or just because of your concept of chivalry maybe? For one it did put us at a disadvantage. Specially cause I had no idea if the other team was rushing into the canyon after us. If you notice in the match, they do come in by the time I respawn. Had they rushed in sooner they would have gotten Brick alone or even me in the process of taring myself.
Had there been no slowmo I wouldn't have used it. That is a fact. I told Brick at the time to retreat and that I would use it because it was too much of a liability with 10% hp under those conditions. If you notice I got down that low again thx to slowmo but I didn't pull back and try it once more. Frankly I didn't think it would work a 2nd time if the enemy was wise to it.
You don't like it, fine...thats your problem. I don't regret using it. Any ship in the Cogs running tar can do it. At the very least I hope this raises awareness to it. Change the flow of some of those long drawn out battles. I've never professed to be a chivalrous pilot. I use a lot of tricks, I fight dirty whenever I can, and I'm known to cause teams to rage mid match or desert the lobby after. Don't like that, fine, stick to your stand up fighting...but I'm not. You better have good spotters...thats all I'm gonna say.
No you should have fought to you dying breath. Are you really so self absorbed to think nobody else was in such posittion but you? Do you know how many times in cogs we were doing our best and fighting to the last despite galleon induce slo-mo bug?
Suicide is a cowards way out. And it take away the whole poin of PERMAhull.
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Now hold on... I think that this is a very tactical position... This game is heavily strategic, and I'm sure that if any one of us had thought of this first, we would've used it in cogs without hesitation.
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I have thought of a suicide posibility (there is several other ways to do so), but I'd never do so in a competitive match.
Yes I have done suicides in pug matches, when my crew drove me out of my mind. But I'd never do it in a competitive match.
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Is there a specific amount of time you have to not be damaged by enemy weapons before you can die without ceding a point?
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Did the captain go down with the ship?
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I have zero problem with what they did, however this clever bit of flying is like (but better) than an clever bit of engineering which is banned for the cogs.
All that really matters is consistency in the rule set.
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This reminds me of all the whiners in bf3/etc who get classes nerfed because they don't like some advantage they have which seems underhanded to them. News flash...life isn't fair, real combat isn't fair. I've sunk over 400hrs in this game. I watch, I learn, and I keep doing it. I constantly keep looking for tricks and tactics that can take down harder opponents. Part on the reason I love the squid. It puts the most pressure on the pilot and crew. If you don't outwit or think, you're dead. You can't be lazy with it.
This isn't a hard trick to counter. Just get off your butts and fight cqc. Or stay butt hurt and cry to muse to get tar changed. Doesn't matter to me if it does eventually. I've made my statement, said my piece. Shown that I will use any tactic to take down my opponent. Which is what other teams should be considering every week. Paddling can be beaten if the rest of you are willing to think outside the box. No one is invincible.
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News flash squid can easly get away from all other ships. It has speed of 46m/s next fastest shis is goldfish with 32m/s. any half decent squid captain should have no problem running far enoug away from the enemy to be able to suicide safely.
News flash exploits are berma bannable ofences in other games. Even if you didn't know you were yusing an exploit, Blizzard or ArennaNet would still permaban your ass, becouse life isn't fair.
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Well maybe if we allow it JUST on a squid, I mean squids a pretty awful :D - if i wasn't a duck i'd name mine 'Captain's Conceit' or perhaps 'High Hubris'
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Gilder is taking things very personally at this point and I don't think most of the others are intending it that way. I understand his frustration, but I hope things get dialed back a notch before it gets ugly.
In a competitive game, any tactic that is within the scope of the rules and mechanics can and will be used. Gilder's suicide is no more ludicrous than noble heroes in Dota murdering their own troops to "deny" enemy heroes some gold, and that's an encouraged part of the game because it's an understood part of the well-developed meta. I questioned it at first, but eventually I realized it was like questioning why the queen is dashing out to the front line in chess while her husband stays at home. Interesting point but irrelevant as regards competitive play. It is not a question of the "morality" of Gilder's tactic; it is purely a balance issue (and I'm glad for those here who've tried to discuss it as such). If Gilder's "suicide squid" tactic is deemed to unbalance the game, then it will probably get fixed by Muse or otherwise ruled out by tournament organizers. This is how sports evolve, and GoI is still very young and underdeveloped as a competitive game. At this point, the game is changing on a fundamental level practically every week.
Hopefully one day the rules and mechanics of GoI will "settle" somewhat on a good balance and the tournament teams will be guaranteed stable servers to play on for high-level games. Until then, I just hope we can all just roll with it and keep the game fun and civil.
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I have no problem with Gilder using the trick from a rules standpoint. It wasn't cheating, thats for sure. However, I would encouragefuture tournaments to discourage this practice.
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Perhaps someone has already mentioned this, and I've missed it whilst trying to take in all the post thus far...
But Deathmatch is a ruleset that's been around for a very long time and in all my experience Deathmatch has always meant.... Killing someone else gains you a point. Killing yourself loses you a point.
This would still allow for very small amounts of suicide meta, (you could force a 2v2 fight rather than being picked off one by one) but would actively punish Death and reward Kills, which is what Deathmatch is all about.
Right now killing yourself for a fresh respawn seems more of an "open" or "sandbox" match up.
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Now hold on... I think that this is a very tactical position... This game is heavily strategic, and I'm sure that if any one of us had thought of this first, we would've used it in cogs without hesitation.
I agree with this point- if the resources are available, why not use them?
Mattilald Anguisad, I can see why you referred me to Wazulu's post, but it is a matter of morality. This reminds me of a very relevant quote:
"To be bound by a sense of morality is to be bound by a set of rules that go unregulated. From Alexander the Great to Genghis Khan, these men knew more than anyone that power and success only ever come at the expense of others power, and others success. The world lives in a state of balance: for every winner there must also be a loser, and in face of the greatest opponents, indeed, many losers." -TheHeretic, on strategies for MOBA games.
Not using them may be 'nice', but using it gives the team an advantage. I feel that the main reason for the hate of suiciding is that its a very difficult maneuver to counter. It removes all of the built up progress that the team has made against an enemy ship. While I wouldn't suicide to tactical repair, I have no problem against it. However, it definitely makes for much less interesting matches to watch(being interesting is the pont), so it probably should be removed from the Cogs.
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I only got upset becouse Gilder tried make himself into a victim.
I'm not really upset that he used it, becaouse there was no rule against it, but the whole point of this discussion is wether such rule should be implemented - amd I'm up for it to be implemented.
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And it take away the whole poin of PERMAhull.
This is pretty much the most relevant and compelling argument against this tactic. This completely bypasses a mechanic (permahull) in a way that confers an advantage (gives no kill points to the enemy). Just because this exploit has a potential risk to it, doesn't change the fact it's an exploit; an unintentional use of the system that results in an undesireable gameplay mechanic (suiciding).
This is easy to fix. Suicides reward the enemy a kill point. That's all. Really, this should be the case already.
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I think the reason it doesn't is because the pilot is doing the damage, thus the "final hit" is from him and not the enemy team.
Also, here is the call for Cogs.
https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,440.msg16212.html#msg16212
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News flash squid can easly get away from all other ships. It has speed of 46m/s next fastest shis is goldfish with 32m/s. any half decent squid captain should have no problem running far enoug away from the enemy to be able to suicide safely.
Do you even fly a squid often enough? Muse screwed with it enough where it literally isn't the fastest anymore no matter what Muse spews out. I've been testing it and Goldfish or even Pyras using kerosene can keep pace with a squid using kerosene. Its insane. The squid should outrun anything easily. It should take kerosene to catch it but right now it is not. Match the other night against a goldfish using it and I literally could not outrun it even with my ship using kerosene. Heck the fish pulled away enough where it was able to get it's hwacha a firing angle on me. What the heck?!
Everyone in that match was the victim. I've already said that multiple times. I just wasn't going to put up with it so I resorted to using something I didn't plan to use until a much more dire situation.
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What are you talking about? Squid is still by far the fastest ship in the game.
I still had problems, becouse I kept overshoting speeding Pyras, when I was flying Squid yesterday (yes I'm not a very good squid pilot, but I can still run away like nobody's buisness).
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This is completely against the idea of permanent hull. It's not a trick, it is an exploit. Something in the game is abused to bypass another part of the game; suicide to bypass hull damage.
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I see nothing wrong with 'taricide'. If i was in a battle and somebody did it to me sure i would be annoyed but i would count it as a tactical maneuver and adapt to it. Not everyone does it and the people that do, don't do it all the time. It's not like people tar themselves every match, every time they are about to die. It's a risky maneuver, which can give an easy kill to the enemy and is only done in certain situations.
I've talked to Gilder and i respect him a lot, i think the reason he did it is just and see no reason why everyone is so butt hurt.
I hope it stays in the game ....... just get over it
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What are you talking about? Squid is still by far the fastest ship in the game.
I still had problems, becouse I kept overshoting speeding Pyras, when I was flying Squid yesterday (yes I'm not a very good squid pilot, but I can still run away like nobody's buisness).
I fly squid very often and I face a lot of opponents. Its my baby and trust me...I know when its not performing like it should. It used to take captains using kerosene or moonshine to catch or even pull away from a squid without those. I know cause Brick and I used to have a lot of duels and that was the only way he'd survive against me. But I've seen Pyras keeping pace with kerosene when I'm using kerosene too. Then Goldfish pulling away with similar. Both going backwards with me going forwards. Stuff is broken. Muse is prolly too busy fixing the server problems atm but a lot needs addressing.
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Can we stop using terms like butthurt and whining? It devalues any form of legitimate debate, and frankly is really immature.
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It's game breaking, against the spirit of the game, against the spirit of the permahull and against the spirit of deathmatch. It should be removed as a possibility.
However, we can't blame those who used it so far since it isn't against the rules, it was simply overlooked by the devs and needs to be fixed. Not such a big deal.