Guns Of Icarus Online

Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: BlackenedPies on January 24, 2017, 08:49:52 am

Title: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: BlackenedPies on January 24, 2017, 08:49:52 am
Thousands of messages have been exchanged between participates in The Council (https://join.skype.com/E1aKmZOCoGr8) (Skype link). This thread exists to poll players about our tentatively approved proposals for LOCHNAGAR ammunition. The most popular proposals are as follows:

Lochnagar Proposals

Lochnagar _______________
    		Self damage _____
    		Clip Size _____
    		Rate of Fire _____
    		Rotation Speed _____
    		Jitter _____
   
Current Stats
    		100%
    		-60%
    		0%
    		-80%
    		-60%
   
Option 1 (Revert)
    		250 DMG
    		One Shot
    		0%
    		-90%
    		-100%
   
Option 2 (ZanC)
    		100%
    		-50%
    		-50%
    		-80%
    		-60%
   
Option 3 (Daft Loon)
    		100%
    		-40%
    		-20%
    		-90%
    		-100%
   

Notes:
Option 1 reverts Loch to its pre-1.4.5 state
Options 2 & 3 were proposed by ZanC and Daft Loon, who explain here (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,8252.msg134204.html#msg134204)

This table is designed for you to reply with quote to this thread and select the option with which you most agree by deleting the other proposals. Each proposal is grouped between the [ TR]  and [ /TR ] tags, so remove those lines of code as necessary. Good luck!
Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: BlackenedPies on January 24, 2017, 08:53:49 am
Loch gat deals 38% higher DPS than greased. I vote option 3
Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: ZnC on January 24, 2017, 10:13:35 am
My suggestion and Daft's are going towards the same direction. I was going to say that I'd vote for either one... until I pulled the numbers.

Reducing clip size by 40% (as opposed to 50%) gives the Lumberjack, Light Flak and Hades an extra shot. That (along with only -20% RoF) would very definitely break them. I don't think -20% RoF is enough to balance the sheer 125% increase in damage; Loch Gat would still be broken.

Clip Size should stay at 50%. Rate of Fire can be fine-tuned (40-60%). I have no opinions on Rotation Speed and Jitter (as long as no drastic changes).
Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: Naoura on January 24, 2017, 12:43:57 pm
Option 2 (ZanC)
    		100%
    		-50%
    		-50%
    		-80%
    		-60%
   

Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: BlackenedPies on January 24, 2017, 12:49:34 pm
That's a good point ZnC, clip should remain at -60% or change to -50%. I don't think gat dps is a problem with a small ROF reduction, like -20%, if rotation was reverted to -90

-50% ROF sounds high, and I'm not sure loch could remain competitive on light guns with it, but it might also change repair cycles. I'll run the numbers later, but like you said, the suggestions are very similar and just comes down to finding the right numbers
Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: Daft Loon on January 24, 2017, 01:41:58 pm
For some reason i thought the initial new loch was -40% not -50%, -50% makes more sense having done the numbers now, 4 hades shots, 3 light flak, 3 lumberjack, 3 light carronade shots.

-20% ROF was pulled out of the air initially but I calculated it would make loch drop to greased gatling dps after 30% of the clip having done ~400 damage, that was with -40% clip -50% will reduce that damage figure by a bit.

-90% turning is also a significant nerf to loch gat, at -80% its not hard enough to keep the gun pointed at a moving target, -90% should mean using loch is a bad idea if the target is moving around in your sights too much forcing people to make decisions. Having to pick your shots carefully on account of the turning was part of the challenge of old loch and why I (and probably others) gave fairly strong feedback against the inital change to -70% in testing. (they sort of listened)
Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: BlackenedPies on January 24, 2017, 05:53:36 pm
Does anyone think rotation speed should remain at -80%, or have an opinion on jitter? Otherwise, let's reach a timely compromise. The two proposals agree on -50% clip, and that ROF should be reduced. I like Daft's reasoning for -20%, but lower (more negative) would make more sense with the current -80% rotation than a reverted -90%

Here's my thoughts: if we want -90% rotation then -20% ROF sounds good. If we keep -80% then maybe -30 - 40% (50 seems too high). I prefer non-100% jitter reduction so perhaps -90% jitter (above -60% to be more relevant on Hcarro)
Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: Naoura on January 24, 2017, 06:14:00 pm
Jitter should be fine where it is, though that does bring to mind a new ammo type.

As for ROF, why can't we have both? 35% would be an okay compromise with it, as far as I know.
Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: ZnC on January 24, 2017, 06:37:53 pm
Richard mentioned in Skype that the Lumberjack gets 3 powerful (balloon OHKO) shots. Considering that, we were discussing whether to up it to -60% RoF. From the numbers perspective, I'm inclined to agree. The DPS does look outrageous on paper (Lumberjack, Hades, L.Flak, L.Carro etc.), even when considering RoF loss from self-damage.

Comparatively, Charged Rounds adds only 30% damage, drops clip size by 20% and reduces RoF by 25%.

I'm generally against nerfing (as opposed to buffing) when it comes to balance; rotation speed at -80% does feel significantly better than -90% in practice. I prefer higher jitter reduction, but am okay with it right now.
Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: BlackenedPies on January 24, 2017, 09:06:03 pm
Quote from: ZnC on January 24, 2017, 06:37:53 pm
Richard mentioned in Skype that the Lumberjack gets 3 powerful (balloon OHKO) shots. Considering that, we were discussing whether to up it to -60% RoF. From the numbers perspective, I'm inclined to agree. The DPS does look outrageous on paper (Lumberjack, Hades, L.Flak, L.Carro etc.), even when considering RoF loss from self-damage.

If -50% clip is too strong on lumber, then why not keep it at -60%?
Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: ZnC on January 24, 2017, 09:34:46 pm
Quote from: BlackenedPies on January 24, 2017, 09:06:03 pm
If -50% clip is too strong on lumber, then why not keep it at -60%?

Because I'm hoping to make it viable on the Hades, Light Flak and sometimes Light Carronade. -60% clip size kills it for those guns.

For the Lumberjack, I think 3 shots with about -50% RoF is fine. If you miss you need to wait ~2.5s to make the next shot (compared to ~1.2s now). The subsequent shots also won't matter as much if you land the first. Greased and Charged will still have the most optimal DPS (but longer arming range) due to Loch's self-damage.
Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: BlackenedPies on January 24, 2017, 09:50:19 pm
Quote from: ZnC on January 24, 2017, 09:34:46 pm
Because I'm hoping to make it viable on the Hades, Light Flak and sometimes Light Carronade. -60% clip size kills it for those guns.

For the Lumberjack, I think 3 shots with about -50% RoF is fine. If you miss you need to wait ~2.5s to make the next shot (compared to ~1.2s now). The subsequent shots also won't matter as much if you land the first. Greased and Charged will still have the most optimal DPS (but longer arming range) due to Loch's self-damage.

That's fair, it's arguably more important to be balanced for hades and Lflak than gat. You've sold me ZnC
Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: Unarmed Civilian on January 24, 2017, 10:06:16 pm
The revert option is simply a massive nerf to the ammo since Heavy Flak was changed, which was the primary beneficiary besides H carro.

I vote option 2 because I like the idea of loch hades being buffed and loch L flak being usable.

Option 2 (ZanC)
    		100%
    		-50%
    		-50%
    		-80%
    		-60%
   

Option 3 is interesting, but I'm worried the clip size reduction is too low for the huge damage boost.
Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: Richard LeMoon on January 24, 2017, 10:18:57 pm
I am in favor of the 90% turning reduction. It added to the skill of knowing exactly when to load in the ammo to have the shot lined up, instead of just having it preloaded.
Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: Red-Xiii on January 25, 2017, 12:31:19 pm
I'm on the revert bandwagon.  Option 1
Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: Dementio on January 25, 2017, 07:39:36 pm
If Heavy Clip won't get enough jitter reduction to make it desirable for me, I would really want option 1 or option 2 with -100% jitter.

If Heavy Clip does get enough jitter reduction, I would go with option 2. Which I hope slows down the effectiveness for some light guns, emphasizing on the few shots that come out and land instead of quickly emptying the whole clip, effectively gaining much much more dps than any other ammo type for guns like Gatling, where landing a shot is less of an issue since it's close range.
But if people really like their one shot, I wouldn't mind option 1 for the Lumberjack.

In general, I like option 2, because it normalises dps more than the current version does. Option 2 Lochnagar could also gain more importance during the engagement, when certain components are already damaged and not sitting at full health anymore, I imagine, giving less time to react with its "burst" damage.
People seem to like their one-shot Loch Flak, but while when I was a gunner occasionally used Loch for fun on the Flak, I never thought of it as it's primary or even secondary ammo type, so I don't get the hype for the Loch Flak. I do however appreciate one-shot Loch Lumberjack and the -100% jitter Heavy Carro when Heavy Clip was nerfed.
Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: Richard LeMoon on February 01, 2017, 05:09:51 pm
Any final thoughts on this? Devs are asking for final numbers.

/!\This requires the buff nerf to +10% damage. /!\

Option 2 (ZanC)
    		100%
    		-50%
    		-50%
    		-80%
    		-60%
   

100% damage over the course of the clip as it is now.
+125% damage, no change.

Seems to be popular, though I would go to 90% rotation. That makes it a skill reload for 1 shot guns, and the others turn fast enough that multiple shots tracking a target are not impossible, but take coordination between pilot and gunner. Greased would be better for fast moving close combat.
Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: Daft Loon on February 01, 2017, 05:13:40 pm
I'd like to see -90% rotation also, as well as -80% or more jitter but its well worth testing either way.
Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: Inkjet on February 01, 2017, 05:33:05 pm
Quote
Lochnagar _______________
    		Self damage _____
    		Clip Size _____
    		Rate of Fire _____
    		Rotation Speed _____
    		Jitter _____
   
Option 2 (ZanC)
    		100%
    		-50%
    		-50%
    		-80%
    		-60%
   


Voting option 2, would like to see -80% or -90% jitter, as long as heavy clip is also changed to have 10% more reduction than loch.
Title: Re: #AmmotudeAdjustment - LOCHNAGAR ammunition proposals
Post by: Richard LeMoon on February 02, 2017, 12:58:34 am
I agree with 2, with -90% rotation and -80% jitter. This makes it a very skill based ammo for both pilot and gunner.