Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Unarmed Civilian on November 16, 2016, 05:51:51 pm
-
I personally still think it is better than not having it, because the alternative is worse.
People who decline loadouts or refuse to follow directions or get on the 4th gun on a pyra as a gunner instead of the 1st are often subject to verbal abuse as pilots vent their frustration at what they perceive as the source of their frustration until that player abandons the match of their own accord or the match ends so they can leave without hurting their completion record (which people do care about).
I myself, to people have refused loadouts repeatedly after myself explaining why I am recommending a loadout, have berated them, called them out to the entire lobby, blocked them, recommended the rest of the lobby block them, and suggested a full relocation of the entire lobby so that they would not have to deal with that player, left the match, and decided to just do something else for the day because now I'm in a foul mood.
The BRR method can be applied to newbies as well. I don't know if it would feel any better for 3 people to leave because they don't want to deal with you, have to sit on a ship with a pilot who wishes he never got on the helm with you, or just get kicked and have to requeue.
...
Not to mention the actual trolls who spin in place to avoid autokick.
This will definitely be a wholesome discussion.
-
While many people will agree with you, Muse has made their position quite clear:
http://gunsoficarus.com/faq/#nokick (http://gunsoficarus.com/faq/#nokick)
-
This system would be abused.
Alternative is to create a password lobby and invite people you know/trust.
-
What we need.
-Remove the decline option from loadouts, failing that displaying recommendations to the whole crew to create some peer pressure.
-Auto accept hanging loadouts that are at least 5s old when the lobby ends.
-Create a secondary block list that actually blocks all interactions including joining the same ship in any way. As a necessary concession to having a 'functional' matchmaker it could be limited to 10 players with an expiry of 10 days for each block.
-Provide actual non automated feedback to everyone who is reported/reports someone, even if in most cases its just "We're watching you/them" it would be better than a system that for all I can see does absolutely nothing.
-Auto creation of novice and vet matches when at least 75% full of only the correct type of players.
If a kick function is implemented it should just be captains kick, the vote part makes no sense on a ship of only 4 players or a team where half or more aren't party to the crew chat.
-
Fly only with your friends, don't have strangers on your ship. Problem solved.
... at least I have an impression that Muse thinks like that.
Although I personally kinda agree on captains kick, it makes possible abuse worse. If you want to try convince Muse* I'd rather suggest a team vote. Then it's more difficult to abuse it with one ship, but still possible to use, especially if you crew with two unful ships.
*they are stubborn but are known to do a full 180 on some things
-
A vote kick should be a unanimous vote from the rest of the crew, and only possible with a fully crewed ship. That makes it very difficult to actually votekick, but still possible if it is really necessary. If you wanted to force the issue without a full crew, you would need someone else to hop over to cooperate. Captain's vote is not a good idea, since they are usually the one who is most upset.
-
During this past weekend's Chaos Skirmish, we had a(n otherwise cool) guy who apparently DIED during our lobby randomization. He was in the captain's slot and wouldn't change ships, wouldn't type, wouldn't talk... we had to get [Muse] MetaFive to join and boot him from the lobby. Thank goodness MetaFive was online, or we'd have had to reform the lobby and restructure a 32-person match.
Custom lobbies definitely need a kick option for the lobby creator if the lobby remains private. And if a vote-kick option existed for PUBLIC lobbies... I'd want an overwhelming supermajority to actually kick someone. Like 80%. Otherwise, yes, it would be abused to hell and back (and I can already feel myself getting kicked by stackers and elitists for raging against the machine 8) )
-
During this past weekend's Chaos Skirmish, we had a(n otherwise cool) guy who apparently DIED during our lobby randomization. He was in the captain's slot and wouldn't change ships, wouldn't type, wouldn't talk... we had to get [Muse] MetaFive to join and boot him from the lobby. Thank goodness MetaFive was online, or we'd have had to reform the lobby and restructure a 32-person match.
Custom lobbies definitely need a kick option for the lobby creator if the lobby remains private. And if a vote-kick option existed for PUBLIC lobbies... I'd want an overwhelming supermajority to actually kick someone. Like 80%. Otherwise, yes, it would be abused to hell and back (and I can already feel myself getting kicked by stackers and elitists for raging against the machine 8) )
^
-
Hahahahahaaha.
Hahahahahahaha.
Hahahaha, hoohohoho, hahahaha
(http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/masonry/001/005/275/225.jpg)
Carry on, mindless sheep. Feed onn petty hopes that shall never come true in any degree.
If Muse is blind as to how lack of such feature can drove away fair chunk of player base, why the fucking hell would they even consider your concerns any valid?
Muse be like: Alliance hurr durr.
Muse be like: Veterans can't into fun.
-
What if you had limited votes to kick per day/week? This would prevent spam kicking and make people think a bit more on how to best use their votes. I rarely feel the need to kick someone.
-
What if you had limited votes to kick per day/week? This would prevent spam kicking and make people think a bit more on how to best use their votes. I rarely feel the need to kick someone.
I'd run out within 5 mins and then I'd just not play the game for a week until I got more. But I can guarantee, my crews that would stay would be the happiest crews in the world because I'd get rid of the trolls. Trolls should never be tolerated, just castrated and put into a tiny little box filled with other trolls where they'd proceed to fight each other to the death.
Vote kick being abused is worth having a vote kick. The alternative is what we have now. An unstable, flawed, system where there is no consequences for abusers. Don't dare bring up CAs or CA mods. They aren't always around, have no real power, and people figure that out really fast. It's like giving a police officer a rubber gun and then ask them to subdue a riot, then stand there with a smile, doing nothing, while the mob strips them naked and spray paints obscene art all over them.
-
CA Mods do in fact have a stick to use, but nowhere is there a rule that states someone has to accept your "recommended" load-outs. As a veteran who has strict builds in play to maximize my boat's play, I can sympathize, but how far will kicking go?
The biggest issue here isn't even trolls. It's the design of Guns of Icarus (not a bad thing, I'm elaborating). What other game forces this much team play? Even "team-based" games allow individual players to shine. Guns puts a lot of pressure on a Captain to literally tell the three others to do x y and z. Beyond very structured raids, you just don't see this elsewhere, and people can do as they please, to a degree. A crew in Guns just can't do as they please and be at the top of their game, even going so far as to say it generally sucks when that goes on.You have a random person from the internet telling you orders and how to play. If you get the design of Guns, you're ok with this. Welcome to our community. Many don't.
Any system put into place can be then trolled. Required load outs? Troll captain puts useless tools. Kick functions? You're going to have cases where a decent person gets kicked because x y and z. No kicking? Trolls and decent people alike get berated and shunned for not doing something they "should." The low population can't sustain any of this, and people end up ditching it altogether.
Do I have a solution? Not really besides getting this design mentality across when I can. I realize the implications of keeping everything the same right now, but so far any solutions I've seen to the current issue of "rogue" players who are either trolling or not trusting some guy on the internet to order him around just hurt the system in play.
-
This system would be abused.
Alternative is to create a password lobby and invite people you know/trust.
Which works oh so well with the number of players we have these days...
-
What if you had limited votes to kick per day/week? This would prevent spam kicking and make people think a bit more on how to best use their votes. I rarely feel the need to kick someone.
I'd run out within 5 mins and then I'd just not play the game for a week until I got more. But I can guarantee, my crews that would stay would be the happiest crews in the world because I'd get rid of the trolls. Trolls should never be tolerated, just castrated and put into a tiny little box filled with other trolls where they'd proceed to fight each other to the death.
Vote kick being abused is worth having a vote kick. The alternative is what we have now. An unstable, flawed, system where there is no consequences for abusers. Don't dare bring up CAs or CA mods. They aren't always around, have no real power, and people figure that out really fast. It's like giving a police officer a rubber gun and then ask them to subdue a riot, then stand there with a smile, doing nothing, while the mob strips them naked and spray paints obscene art all over them.
IS anyone else aroused?
-
If you ever need me in game when I am not there, Ask to add me on steam or ask for a mod in their discord.
-
I can understand Muse's stance on this. Coming back to the game after a long break I can see the salt levels have risen to epic proportions and I'm pretty sure a vote kick system would get abused by vets and trolls. This used to be a fun game but the matches I've played since coming back have pretty much been cancer.
-
The actual problem is this, with player pop declining again it becomes difficult to fill and keep a lobby going. The other major problem is that the report feature does literally nothing, and as such there is literally no mechanism in the game to deal with abusive players. This last weekend I encountered 2 situations which stick out in my mind where vote kick could have been used.
The first was a 4-1-1 who would not respond to voice or chat, wouldn't take loudouts and acted as if he was afk except he would hit decline. Later it turned out he has voice which he only used for cursing out people.
The second was a mid level player I think around 21 engine who declined my loadout. I stated if you don't want the loadout you should leave the ship, he replies that because I asked that he was now not going to leave.
The moral of the story is that bith of these players caused their team to lose, I wouldn't play with them however and changed teams leaving some sucker to get stomped. Most vets will not play with players like this. The result is the rest of the team gets punished with a stomp usually 5-0 because they lose all of their good players.
Now the people remaining on that team will not learn anything about the game getting stomped that hard, more than likely they too will also be the victim of the the troll turning them off to the game.
Many vets will not play the match, this also kills the lobby and the game you may have spent 5 or so mins waiting to play. It's been suggested that you should just reform the lobby. However breaking the game streak will cause many players to leave and go take a break or call it a night. Also forming a new lobby without a password means the troll can just follow. That makes the idea of reforming a lobby very impractical.
Without some sort of admin, or any real punishment for low level players we just don't have any control over the lobby. Even if the CA cadre had admin power there are never really enough online to make a difference.
The real victims of all of this are the innocent new players, they are the ones who end up playing with the trolls, cause the vets leave, and they are the ones who get mercilessly stomped from not having good players on their side. They get denied training, and quickly learn that guns is just the Wild West where any thing goes because the only people who will ever be punished are lvl 45s.
In closing I would say that vets would not abuse a kick system to the detriment of noobs, and it is in fact the new players that are paying the highest price right now for lack of a vote kick.
-
Had more than one friend who really liked GOIO till they saw there was no kick function. Then they'd stop playing. It only takes one bad player to ruin a game and make them never want to come back.
This isn't just GOIO but many other games. Heck I'm with a growing majority that won't play ARK again because the devs failed to implement anti cheat fast enough and we just got tired of hacks. With time the servers there have just emptied to bare minimum. It's just like GOIO. Boom to bust, now only small pop remains.
I guess things are still pretty bad in GOIO. I've played a few times recently and had crews flocking to stay with me. Talking about all sorts of horror stories of the ships they'd been on. Was like...yep, that's what GOIO is like much of the time. Why I fly with AI more often than not.
-
The general tone of this topic makes me think that not having vote to kick is the right choice, even above and beyond Muse's pretty solid arguments. When you're sounding like a bully from a children's cartoon or a cut monologue by the villain from the new Ghostbusters, you might want to rethink your position, starting with "Are we the baddies?"
P.S: Yes, innocent new players are the real victims -- in that people will bully the hell out of them just for being new, with the excuse that they're "trolls" or "hopeless" rather than just learning. Hell, I had someone go after me in that tack because I criticized their saying they need to use toxicity to police the community of "bad" players, even though, as I alluded to earlier, I have yet to actually play outside tutorials and the sandbox practice thing. And the frothing hatred of new players and concern-trolling about how it's really for their sake isn't exactly making me want to dive into the game.
You want to know why there's so few players? It's not the trolls. It's not the lack of vote kick. It's not the "clueless newbies." It's the mass of bitter, hateful bullies who will go after them for any misstep or effort to learn the game, or not playing exactly how they say they should. People get interested in the game (like I finally did after it kicking around in my Steam library for ages), then they see that's what the community is like now, and they say "Yeah, no."
-
I have approached countless new players and tried teaching them, even if for reason to at least have some decent time in match.
Many have disabled voice chat - something that should not exist in this game in the first place.
Many don't read the text chat where I explain things if I cant have them explained in voice chat.
Some are rude, arrogant bastards which need to be spanked. With a chair. Notice I say "some", indicating I'm meeting lots of these fuckers.
Like 1 in 6, 1 in 5 happens to be a prick. Or a trolling cunt.
And this costs me both serious mental health, feeling of guilt that I'm failing people aboard my fucking ship, that I fail my teammates, because I can't make my crew functional.
When I play this game, ESPECIALLY as a pilot, I feel responsibility for other people - and mine - good time.
So yeah.
I am doing my best to not be an asshole. But there are times I actually need that fucking kick option, because people are bastards.
I came to play a game, relax and have some good time, not to handle somebody's lacks in being raised as an aware member of this fucking society.
G'day.
Disclaimer for a new forum user: this is my version of calm, polite, and collected response. Understand it as such.
-
I feel you Shwalbe... damned do I.
I try and teach them, but the pricks just keep being pricks. No stopping that.
Votekick would be so, so nice... Especially for THOSE ships. You know the one's I'm talking about.
Never going to be implemented because Muse is so optimistic about human nature...
-
First of all, welcome to the forums Nezumi-chan!
Secondly, good work keeping this thread constructive guys.
There are some very good points here, Kicking can be attributed to bullying of players as well as trolling which portrays a really interesting question, how could they resolve these issues.
As a moderator, I have the ability to kick people however, there are contingencies in place which all moderators must follow before using the tool.
Just as a preamble, I am aware of the limited population of moderators these days as mentioned by multiple players within the forums and general community in game. This is just an insight into how the function is currently used.
So the rule we moderators follow is shortened into an acronym called WWMKB. This is contingency to ensure moderators do not abuse the tools at their disposal and to ensure the correct procedures are carried out to avoid any further confrontations outside of game such as on Steam Community or Forums.
It stands for Warn, Warn, Mute, Kick and well, you know what B stands for.
Now, as you can see, we must warn twice and mute before considering the kick function. This is why kick is very rarely used. Often, most players will simply stop after a warning or two.
A proposal is to revamp the reporting system rather than provide players with these tools.
Currently, once a player is reported, the report is logged for the devs while also sending them a default warning.
One consideration would be to assess the reports and perform a WWMTK contingency. (Warn, Warn, 1 minute mute (while in lobby) and TK (Kick from lobby only)).
Thus the mean players will receive two warnings and a mute before a kick. This will only apply to the lobby. Further actions would require Moderator or Dev action.
Obviously I am well against this however, this is a possibility.
In saying this, Automation of this tool would be extremely dangerous for multiple reasons, players can spam report a player thus leading to the original debate of Bullying or Trolling.
-
A number of people suggested the vote-kick to require confirmation from 90% of people in the lobby.
This would pretty much guarantee the feature is not being abused, because if 90% of people in the lobby can be made to want to kick that one player, it's far better for that player not to be there.
-
A number of people suggested the vote-kick to require confirmation from 90% of people in the lobby.
This would pretty much guarantee the feature is not being abused, because if 90% of people in the lobby can be made to want to kick that one player, it's far better for that player not to be there.
I can see this being a good starting point. :)
-
An idea I've had is to tie it to completing matches with novices at some ratio ex playing 10 matches tolerating (or better if possible) a novice captain or crew gives 1 use of kick, that way one of the big stated problems of people kicking low level players preemptively becomes mathematically impossible.
In other words being moderately nice to the ignorant and/or slow witted would mean not having to tolerate the complete trolls.
-
Welcome to the forums Nezumi, we always appreciate more opinions here on the forums, especially from newer players. However swing as you have admittedly never played the multiplayer part of the game, and that being what this thread is specifically concerning we do enjoy the opinions more of you have some actuall experience with the topic at hand.
Mann while I can appreciate your wwmkb system remember you actually have the power to kick and you have that fancy purple text. When I or anyone else warns a troll in lobby we get ignored because the only threat is we're gonna report you, or maybe leave to another lobby which they can just join.
That's an important point because as the game is shrinking back down we are gonna get to the point where there are only 2 or 3 lobbies and if you leave to reform you will kill that lobby and they troll will search for a new one, and chances are he will probably find you again.
We all play this game for fun, please give us the tools to have fun. No vote kick was an experiment by the devs of this game, it was designed to make the game more inclusive to new players. Seeing as how we have retained what? 2 percent of that of all players who have played I would say that experiment was a failure. The only abuse going on is teamstacking which the devs have still not and never will tackle, and trolls.
Please make lobbies balanced again, please give up on your failed experiment it did not work, add kick.
The sad truth is toxisity is the only defense vets have against trolls and players who won't listen, and 90% of vets will admit to you they have used toxisity frequently to deal with trolls, the other 10% won't admit it, or they just quit playing for the day frustrated, which is bad for them and the community. The lack of kick has in large part created this toxisity and the toxisity has in some cases been misapplied and created trolls. This is the effect no vote kick has had. It's also made vets who work with noobs quit playing and give up, and made assholes out of a lot of regular players.
-
The lack of vote kick is a mistake, the exclusivity argument is a myth.
-> If anybody has ever wanted to enjoy any game and couldn't because nobody would play with them, I'd love to have a chat, please. Change my mind. <-
People that don't want to play with pugs solve that problem by not playing with pugs, the low player base combined with poorly performing AI greatly disincentivizes random kicks, an unskilled player who listens being better than any available alternatives. On the other hand it takes one player to ruin a match and a lobby. The lack of any recourse over trolls is a significant reason I don't play. I would rather play with pugs, I would rather teach people to play.
Seriously MUSE, listen, I'm a gamer, 40,000 hours+ a low estimate. I'm a clever rookie at dozens of games most people haven't heard of. I love your game, I'm at, I dunno 1100 hours or something, it's brilliantly put together. And I want to play with pugs, crewing up with a bunch of vets and stomping people isnt fun. You have consciously chosen to put control over the course of a lobby/match into the hands of any irate troll who comes along as opposed to the people who are playing and care about your game. I dealt with it for 1100 hours, yelled, cursed, fought (also taught dozens of people how to play), reported, ignored.
I'd say roughly 50% of the matches theres a troll on my team (not fun) or a troll on the other team (also not fun). My last few attempts at GoI look like "Hey dude welcome, please accept the loadout" "Please accept the loadout" "We cant play if you don't take the loadout" "No 2 gunners won't work, those arent the even right ammo types for this gun, please just take it" "Alright, good luck, peace" Make a tutorial guys, as cheap as it is to force us to do the teaching for free.
Your suggested solution is to relocate, I gotta be honest, it's hard not to.
-
Yea I couldn't agree with this more, even I evil Narayan will keep a low level player that ha a mic and or communicates via type responding to my voice chat. If they do good during that round they usually end up on my friends list or with a clan invite.
I can always find a role for one low level player on my ship, two is a lush but still possible depending on lobby composition.
Vote kick is needed for low level players who will not communicate under any circumstance, trolls, and players who are commuting serious conduct violations. All of those things occur even with mid level players in some cases, and waiting for a report to take effect, reforming the lobby, and getting victimized in the mean time is not working. It's only makes a rift where vets don't trust new players cause they have no recourse against trolls, to the detriment of new players.
-
The lack of vote kick is a mistake, the exclusivity argument is a myth.
It's really, really not. The experience I remember with vote kicking in an online multiplayer game: Someone in Left 4 Dead was being rude and dismissive and just talking about how much all the other players suck -- despite not actually being very good -- and no-one seemed to enjoy having him around. I voted to kick after a while. Was voted down. He team-kills me in retaliation, leading to us losing moments away from clearing the map, and then manages to blame me for the loss and get me vote-kicked.
I haven't actually seen or heard of vote-kicking being used as anything but a tool for trolling and elitism, causing more problems than it solves. I'm not sure it can be, given the atmosphere of largely-uncurated online gaming and the danger of putting such power in the hands of a majority with no checks. ALmost any such player-driven control tool has inevitably been abused to hurt people who have playstyles that are less preferred, who are new and learning, or who try to use it to actually combat trolls and raise the level of the community.
This community appears to already be racing to the bottom to compete with Counterstrike and League of Legends in toxic hostility, but a vote kick would only hasten that.
Welcome to the forums Nezumi, we always appreciate more opinions here on the forums, especially from newer players. However swing as you have admittedly never played the multiplayer part of the game, and that being what this thread is specifically concerning we do enjoy the opinions more of you have some actuall experience with the topic at hand.
Except I didn't draw on anything about the game in particular, but broader patterns in online gaming and my own personal experiences. I've had more fun with friendly, helpful groups that failed, even if it could sometimes be irritating, than unhelpful but technically proficient groups. I fondly remember a PUG I tried to fight Titan with in Final Fantasy XIV that never managed to succeed, but largely worked together, supported each other, and discussed tactics... but I don't fondly remember groups in MMOs that played well, but rushed ahead without me without warning if I tried to do sidequests, watch cutscenes, or actually read what quest NPCs say.
And every instance of such hostility I've seen toward "trolls" or "clueless newbies" actually extends to any new player or one who plays differently, and my experiences with the Steam Discussion community for this game don't suggest this is the sole exception.
Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe something about this game so dramatically changes these broad patterns that I'm completely off-base... but I kinda doubt it.
Still, I might give the game a shot and see.
P.S: Insistence on using voice chat is an issue, as it ignores people with disabilities and trans people who may not yet have a voice they're comfortable with. It's usually best to leave at least the sound of it on if you don't have serious anxiety issues, but not everyone will talk on it for a variety of reasons.
-
No. The toxicity and hostility is due to all people being tired by being mopped around by trolls or morons. I know, I joined back in the times where there were no matchmaker, community was small and really friendly.
And we still are friendly, assuming you are listening what is being told to you.
A trait you don't seem to possess. But this is a side note.
I'm sorry to hear about your experience from Left 4 Dead. But.
This isn't Left 4 Dead. Nor CS. Nor LOL. This is GOIO. A game with very high learning curve, putting extremely high emphasis on teamwork, planning, knowing your shit and cooperation. This is a game, where someone using wrong ammo may cost you victory. This is a game, where one misstep, one wrong calculated hit of a mallet can cause the death of a ship, thus perhaps death of your lonesome 2v1 ally, thus perhaps in longer (or not) run - a victory. Just because someone made a mistake.
And we are talking about the case of making A MISTAKE not being deliberate asshole, or arrogant smug.
Trust me, I had my fair share of real asshole newbies aboard my ships. I spent 890 hours in this game.
Hell I have even make videos. If you want, you can find them on YouTube and in my thread here, in the forums.
I respect your right to have your own opinion and I do understand where you are coming from, but please. Spend 100 hours in pub matches so you can say that you are starting to having clue of what are people talking about in case of this game.
G'day sir.
-
P.S: Insistence on using voice chat is an issue, as it ignores people with disabilities and trans people who may not yet have a voice they're comfortable with. It's usually best to leave at least the sound of it on if you don't have serious anxiety issues, but not everyone will talk on it for a variety of reasons.
No one here insists on actually pressing X or C to talk. Using text chat is just fine. What causes problems is when people have voice chat disabled and cannot hear orders or tips from other players.
All we want from new players is to listen. If you do that and maybe communicate back with text chat most veterans are happy.
Most veterans in this game either remain quiet if you're new, or they try and teach.
Essentially if listen and you will have a good time with veterans.
p.s.: excuse the rambliness of this
-
Oh.
I have just read that Post Scriptum.
...People with disabilities. Like what disabilities exactly?
-
being mute. That would be one.
-
Ok, then you use voice chat. Or V-commands.
-
No that's to much work I'm gonna just take Chem extinguisher buff and shoot pewpew all round.
-
Ok, then you use voice chat. Or V-commands.
I meant text chat.
...yeeeah so I tried PMing Nezumi-Chan about how to approach vet so they would more likely show their friendly side. It... well. It didn't work well.
. _.
How you, people, work is beyond me sometimes.
-
Did they at least respond to you, or did you get straight up ignored?