Guns Of Icarus Online

Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Atruejedi on August 05, 2016, 02:07:57 am

Title: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: Atruejedi on August 05, 2016, 02:07:57 am
I've been working on writing an email to Muse all week about my thoughts on the Alliance Open Alpha. Apparently people I didn't share it with directly want to read it, which is fine. So, here it is:

(http://i.imgur.com/a1bMXQ2.jpg)
You can read it here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/484nars3p1g1tjq/Thatthingsoperational.pdf?dl=0

It helps to use the "zoom out" function at the bottom of the Dropbox screen. If you agree or disagree with any of my reflections, suggestions, or criticisms, I encourage you to post here. I've also posted this message in the Steam forums. Thank you for your time.

Oh, and be warned: it's 61 pages (with pictures) and 11,517 words. So... grab a drink.
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: KeijoPertti on August 05, 2016, 02:25:16 am
tl;dr?
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: Schwalbe on August 05, 2016, 02:32:48 am
Oh, and be warned: it's 61 pages (with pictures) and 11,517 words. So... grab a drink.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESuWnNW5H7o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESuWnNW5H7o)

Damn man, and people complain on me writing too much?
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: The Mann on August 05, 2016, 05:36:56 am
... I just wasted 3 hours reading that whole document...

I liked the pictures :P
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: The Mann on August 05, 2016, 05:39:12 am
Also, the modern prequels are much better here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSCm8yAxBr8&list=PLGGYDyC_4XLKn2nGbEZmbc4PP9xdxUuBN
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: Hoja Lateralus on August 05, 2016, 10:52:24 am
I'm at page 28 (out of freaggin 61!), this is the part about world map.
Firstly, Jedi, you like Paradox games, I like Paradox games, we are brothers now. It's nice to see someone who understands me and I also like the map gimmick the most of whole Alliance thingie (and I'm happy to say that Muse said they are planning to implement it in some way to the Skirmish).
Provinces that provide boosts sound great, or more general: provinces with characteristics, something in it more than resources. Because if every province grants +5% boost to something, then it's clusterfuck and if everyone's special then nobody is. So my idea is that around 20% of provinces grant some kind of boost like Jedi says, 40% have some different quirks and the rest 40% has no special abilities. What other different quirks? Well, for instance province with high hills/mountains or any other terrain that benefits the defenders.
I'm certainly happy with the fact that I've talked to Howard and he said that, in principle, more player agency and planning is good, so if we keep on good suggestions we could make Alliance truly great. #makegoiogreatagain?

Reading further about resolving battles, I've pitched an idea of global events, which could make battles either longer or shorter. Also, you talking about taking over provinces being a big deal AND storytelling, it makes me thing of a newspapaer. Hell, if in this postapo world people can feed themselves and build giant-ass ships for constant warhammer-esque war then they sure can print NEWSPAPERS. So imagine if every time you log in you can get a daily newspaper with some information from the world and your faction. Maybe it deserves a different thread...
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: HamsterIV on August 05, 2016, 12:55:32 pm
I read the whole thing and agree with most of it.

My main beef is with the airplanes, I think the they should be altered dramaticaly or done away with all together. I know muse has spent a lot of time and money on models and AI, but they don't add to the experience. In the original GOI (now flight of the icarus) it made sense to have agile fighters dance around your lumbering beast of an airship. Now the player is in the agile airship dueling other agile airships and occasionally lumbering boss ships. Airplanes don't seem to fit with the game's tone anymore.

With the limited hard points and wide array of guns, GOIO has put a heavy emphasis on strategic thinking in the pregame time and tactical ship placement during game play. Having airplanes come from random angles and not be easily engaged with some of the better ship to ship weapons does not help the aforementioned strategic or tactical thinking. Further more the airplanes present such a low level threat that the best strategy I have found to deal with them is to fly close to the rocks and hope they path find themselves to death.

I do not find dealing with aircraft satisfying as a pilot or a crew member. Since getting to the next objectives or engaging higher threat ships occupy the pilot attention, it is rare that the ship will be purposefully turned to engage aircraft. Crew on their own initiative can hop on a gun and take a pot shot at any airplanes that happens to pass through the gun's field of fire, but if the captain is not aware they are shooting he may turn the ship and throw off their aim or break gun arcs all together. Since there is no way to outmaneuver airplanes the pilot has no real tools to deal with airplanes except hope they path find themselves to death.

I recognize the need for a low level threat that players can grind through to keep their engagement up between more dramatic encounters, but the airplanes are not very engaging. When the optimal strategy is "deal with the damage until they die by accident" there is little to no sense of accomplishment.

Here are my ideas for making airplanes more intereting:

* Restrict airplanes to open sky sections of the map. If an airship flies too low or too close to canyons the airplanes should peel off and go back to patrolling a safe stretch of sky. This would allow the pilot to out maneuver the airplanes and with the airplanes contained to a certain area they can be purposefully engaged with long range guns if they present too much of a threat.

* Add immobile ground or balloon based turrets in areas of the map that the airplanes can not reach. This can be a simple as a gun on the back of a truck that drives into position from a hidden spawn when the player is not looking. Being static and possibly ground based allows the players more agency in how to deal with them. Also slow moving shot drop weapons would be more effective since the gunners can calibrate their aim from the ground hits and the splash damage.
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: Daelf on August 05, 2016, 01:06:29 pm
For the problem with the spotting and health-bar issues in it, I think that if someone on your ship did damage to the enemy, then the health-bar of it shows up. Just having the captain mark it doesn't help when the captain forgets, is focused on other things, or when the crew is firing on multiple enemies.
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: Not Raged on August 05, 2016, 04:08:46 pm
It was a long read but jedi made sure i read it, it is well crafted and i agree with every point.
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: .Daring Do. on August 05, 2016, 04:15:44 pm
Ramming could use more damage.

Ramming is perfect in novice it feels realistic , but in normal and higher difficulties there's a huge jump in the amount of damage it does. So in novice I'm able to get 3 hit rams but in normal it takes 3 times that.

Also at time I hit them and no damage is taken at all... Maybe making the hit boxes bigger on impact damage and
decreasing impact damage from players ships.

Idk but the ramming feels abit off when it comes to damage.
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: Baelfire Ender on August 05, 2016, 06:13:08 pm
Just read the entire thing; I can whole-heartedly agree. First note: I sent an email about the boss ship and a new bug I found on it (not mentioned here). So yeah, I support that. Jedi has already mentioned pretty much everything I could say, except for the fact that the boss ship (yes, it has big engines) IS TOO MANEUVERABLE. It's the size of Rhode Island and moves like a Squid on steroids. Not much else to say except PLEASE JUST READ MY EMAIL ABOUT IT.

Second, yes, for the love of God, FIX THE UPGRADE SYSTEM. I have been flying my Squid for months, no problem. First day of Alliance, whoop-de-flippin-do, no Spanner for you. Because my engineer had a maxed mallet, he refused to take the spanner and instead took his upgraded buff hammer (which has a bug, by the way. If you upgrade it, it takes more hits to buff.) My engineers/gunners don't wanna take Charged or Lochnagar anymore because Greased ammo got powered. Okay, yeah, it's pretty damn effective these days, but what's gonna happen when we need the extra EXTRA damage from Lochanagar to rip apart the boss' health? Greased isn't the best at it, even if you are hitting it's weakpoint. Okay, yeah, it's probably more effective than charged at this point, but Charged was easy to shoot because you didn't have 20 bullets ejecting from your gun every half second. It wastes the volley because half the time, too many bullets pour out of the gun and exploded before they can reach their target, since Greased is short ranger ammo. This, with experience, frustrates captains because that overpowered greased gatling gun can't hit the freakin' target, therefore no hull break. And then no kill. Also, tar barrel. I got murdered by it because a troll tarred me on purpose (I reported him). I've also been accidentally killed by it because I was trying to get ships off my ally's ass and he decided to tar them. I was in the wake, oi.

I do kinda like these new items you've added, the fail-safe and armor kit. I don't have any complaints there. Adds another level of judgement into the mix to determine when you should buff something, where to put it, how often you should check it. The one thing I advice is to make these things a little easier to buff. I don't know how many times I've died on a Corsair because an engineer wanted to use fail-safe/armor kit on the balloon instead of get on a gun and shoot back/help repair the hard to repair armor. Just make these new things vary on where you buff them like you did with the buff hammer, except maybe a little LITTLE easier. That's all I request, thank you.

The new ships, yes, great, awesome, love their layout. One complaint per ship, though. My deal with the Magnate is that I sometimes glitch.... When I'm on a light gun, I get thrown off of the side sometimes. No idea why.

I like the Crusader, but god damn if I haven't had trouble going up those stairs from the heavy guns. I feel like the hitbox on the railing for the Crusader's stair case... isn't there. I've relied on that railing to be able to get me up the stairs because I have those days where my hand doesn't move the mouse fast enough to get me to face the exact middle of the top stair, just so I don't walk off the side... All I can ask is... Hitbox on that railing... please?

Corsair, holy crap, the ultimate Engineer's test. This ship is spacey as all hell and I love it. I love the theme of the ship, cold metal and steel, sophisticated and crafty, but brutal and deserving. You fear this ship and how it looks, and I haven't even gotten to it's layout. The guns, spread far and thin, all have great purpose. Your front gun can be the armor breaking, balloon popper, or disabler. Sides guns are disablers and killing. Back gun is your sneak gun that helps you get away or just make some attacks that assist in the long-run. While the balloon is in a touchy spot, it's a brilliant spot that lets the gunner help out in the repairs as the pilot can also help. Single complaint, single: please for the love of god fix the hit boxes on the ladders. I have run into those things and not climbed. I have reached the top only to be thrown back off. I cannot, for the life of me, make the jumps between the ladders of the side engines without it throwing me into the wall or the main engine. Just please tap it.

The Shrike is an interesting one for me. I feel like it does need another gun, but other than that, I have no real fix to it. The gaps in the floor make it... unique? I dunno. Flustering and annoying for sure. The fact that only really one engineer works is annoying because the gunner and gungineer are always firing guns and usually the real engineer doesn't get to. Either this ship goes to hell because they're too concentrated on shooting instead of helping repair or it just doesn't get damaged because they're too good at shooting. Either way, it's hell for the single engineer.

I don't have a big problem with planes, other than to make them larger and faster. That's it.

The spotting technique we learned in skirmish is useless because, only when we zoom can we see stats, much less the ship itself, unless the captains spot them. Just make the little glow a little bigger and I'll be fine, but if you can add stats to it, YES THANK YOU, PRAISE THE LORD.

I don't have much else to say other than the fact that I support Jedi's review in practically every way.





Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: Unarmed Civilian on August 05, 2016, 06:25:07 pm
Wish it had an index, given how long it is. Annoying to look through for points to re-read and make sure I read them correctly.

I generally agree, and will respond to the few points I find more iffy and that I have more to add to.


The addition of upgradable repair tools seems to be in response to keeping up with the raw damage output of multiple ships firing on one. To remove that system would require them to reduce the amount of spam a ship is taken, or reduce the pain of that spam significantly. Even with upgraded tools, it's hard to keep up with the raw pain of the boss ships already.

That said, I feel that the direction they've taken with upgrades in general is suspect, especially the 3 core repair tools.

Messing with the cooldowns as much as they did is a mistake in my opinion. I personally have been trying to get into a good rhythm and feel for the cooldowns, so messing with the pipe wrench and mallet cooldowns doesn't feel right. However I do think that it's fair to reduce the mallet's cooldown by a second or two, given how long it is and the potential harm it is capable of. Just not completely halving it.

The spanner's rebuild becomes much faster and the pipe wrench seems to be in a reasonable spot - though perhaps being too much of a "super spanner", given how its short cooldown encourages camping a part until it's fully repaired - but the mallet should've been further cemented in its role as the long cooldown, high repair, terrible rebuild tool, rather than turned into an upgrade of the pipe wrench. By that I mean it shouldn't get any rebuild bonuses at all, and instead should heal for more health instead, even if it would be overkill on most parts at that point. A even 9 second cooldown, 500 hp replenishing mallet would still be a fantastic tool, bringing high health ships from the brink of death, breathing life into balloons, and guaranteeing full repairs on every other component. A 7 second cooldown, 390 hp repair would also be great if your goal was reducing the cooldown.

The mallet's long cooldown itself, coupled with the highest overall rate of repair, is what gave engineers the ability to increase their effective rate of repair by having multiple simultaneous cooldowns and encouraged moving around to multiple components to achieve that higher simultaneous repair. It's also what let an engineer hit a part every once in a while, empty a clip from a nearby gun, then return to repairing with little loss in effective rate of repair. And at the same time, misuse of the mallet often lead to disaster, where using it on a tiny dent prevents you from being able to repair the huge burst you take immediately after. But that was always the nature of the tool.

That said, I didn't get an upgraded mallet to play with, so this may be mostly speculation.


As it currently is, the upgraded core repair tools overlap and overshadow the un-upgraded versions of their brothers, making it so spanners have higher rates of overall repair than an upgraded mallet and maxed out pipe wrenches are simply better than the stock spanner. The issue might lie in the fact that you are encouraged to max out one at a time to get the most overall efficiency, since the upgrades seem to approximately double the effectiveness of any of the tools, which is an entire problem on its own.

A way to prevent this might be to have all 3 of the core repair tools under the same upgrade: one upgrade upgrades all 3, meaning none of them become almost strictly better than the other.


Wow, that was a lot of stuff on repair tools. On to the other things.


I agree that the Shrike is awful to engineer on due to overuse of slowing stairs and feeling more cramped than a the gunner's nest on a Junker. On the other hand it's fairly good at rushing to objectives, quickly burning them down, and escaping, so it's not a terrible ship to pilot. In that role it is basically a Squid with heavy guns instead of a front gun. It could even be argued that the visibility issues mimic the Squid's horrendous right-side visibility as a balancing factor. Although the moving parts are a bit overkill.

That said, it gets no pots on it from the Traveler's theme, so overall it's completely unusable garbage.

Oh, and that thing on the Magnate appears to be a perpetual motion machine design, of which a rudimentary understanding of physics could tell you doesn't work and has broken any remaining feeling of realism I've tried to hold on to in this game. I didn't even notice how the plane's size made no sense after seeing that thing on the Magnate.
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: Chang'e on August 05, 2016, 07:23:46 pm
jfc jedi just submit a job application already

The new tools are interesting, but upgrades are such an unnecessary pain in the ass...

I also noticed there are now STEAM ACHIEVEMENTS for referring friends. In-game 'chieves, sure, but official Steam ones? The fuck is this?

The missions could use more detailed descriptions. Most of the time I'm not entirely sure why we're there, or if this mission is even supposed to be for my faction.



Some very minor quibbles, but I'm nothing if not vain; there should really be more options for painting ships. Especially the new ones. Sure, you can paint the Magnate's balloon, but nobody's going to notice with all the bright yellow sails. They're all beautiful ships(mad props), but I'd love to customize them. Come on, there's an entire store tab dedicated to tricking out your skyboat.

An accent option for clothes would be nice, being unable to change the color of brightly-colored accents kind of limits what you can use without making something that is a crime against all good taste.

Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: Atruejedi on August 05, 2016, 08:59:35 pm
tl;dr?

I hope you're kidding. If you care enough to register and post on the forums of a-- actually, fuck it.

That being said, by popular demand, I have updated the original document to include an index, which definitely does help make reading it a little less daunting. At the bottom of the index, in two sentences, I explain why I wrote all this for the lazy bastards who probably shouldn't bother reading it anyway.

Thanks to everyone for their support and voices!

Edit: Actually, you're probably too lazy to even click the damn link, so here is the TL;DR:

Quote
Guns of Icarus Alliance teems with potential but has fundamental design problems. I am here to offer suggestions on how to improve the game and make it a success.
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: Guagadu on August 06, 2016, 02:41:37 am
A monster response to a monster letter. I apologize in advance.

Quote from: Atruejedi's Email
narrative deficiencies
Do you think this would be helped by taking a leaf out of a MOBA's book, and adding voice overs to what is happening? I don't play Mobas much, but from my memories, most of them have audio telling players that a structure is under attack. If voice messages saying things such as "Refinery A has been destroyed, or "Your team is attacking Outpost A", it would make sure that all players are more "in the loop".

Quote from: Atruejedi's Email
Why not, instead, make those weak spots into areas that, when targeted, do significantly more damage to the enemy?
I am not entirely sure, but isn't it already like that?

Quote from: Atruejedi's Email
We can take community-submitted ideas for names.
This would be very cool. The markers saying what type of ship they are (the "(kill)" or "disable)" at the end of the name) are not very useful to me, as I don't generally have time to pay enough attention to the ship name to read it. While I still wouldn't have time to read it, adding unique names/nicknames to each ship does sound very cool and would definitely help immersion.

Quote from: Atruejedi's Email
I don’t think a boss is something that should be hidden
While a boss should definitely not be hidden, it should not be explicitly pointed out to the player at first. When you play a match in Skirmish, and the enemy team is completely unbalanced, do you get an indicator when the much more powerful spawns? No, you don't know until you actually spot them. It should be the same for a boss. While you might be able to visually tell where they are, there shouldn't be any special indicators until the boss is spotted. There is something unnerving about knowing there is an enemy, but not knowing where exactly they are. This uneasiness is what makes horror games as popular as they are.

That being said, I would like different types of ships to have different map markers. In Skrimish, there are no more than 4 enemy ships, and therefore only up to 4 map markers to pay attention to, each with a name attached. Thus, we know exactly which ship is which on the map. However, in alliance, all markers appear the same. I would suggest maybe 3 different unique map markers, one for airplane, one for boss, and one for the rest. Also, having names attached would be too chaotic with the large amount of alliance enemies, so maybe have a key on the left showing the difference between types of markers.

Quote from: Atruejedi's Email
Will bosses be "worth" risking it all to destroy,even if the objectives can be completed and victory can be achieved?
There needs to be something done to make players actually consider engaging boss ships. The only reason I have seen so far is for the glory, and bragging rights. Boss ships are such difficult battles, and usually deliver a large majority of my team's deaths, and for what? A measly upgrade. I personally have never noticed any difference at all from getting the upgrades. The most effective strategy so far seems to be ignoring the boss ship and rushing the objectives, on all 3 gamemodes.

Also, once a boss ship has been killed, it feels like game over. Once a boss ship has been killed, the enemy will no longer be able to do much of anything to you.

Quote from: Atruejedi's Email
you are blurring the lines between different tools and different ammos
While I do like the idea of upgrades, I also agree that it does blur the lines. My solution for this would be simple: instead of making up for an item's weaknesses, improve their bonuses. For example: The spanner upgrades currently include boosts to it's repair power and the mallet upgrades include improvements to it's rebuild power, making them more usable for each other's purposes. Instead, the spanner should not get boosts to it's repair power, but more rebuild boosts instead. This way, the lines between those two items would be even more distinct, instead of morphing them to one.

Quote from: Atruejedi's Email
What do those resources...do? Do you need to collect them to win? Should you? Do they provide bonuses? Should they?
This is my biggest problem with the map as well. I see these resources my faction has, but absolutely no idea what they mean, or what they do.
My suggestion for this is influenced by the board game Risk, the exact same game you mentioned that the map was inspired by in yesterday's fireside. What if each faction had a hidden objective they needed to complete in order to win a season, related to these resources? No player would be able to actually see them, so that no simple faction swap would show the objectives. On top of this, each resource would also apply some sort of buff that faction's players in some way. Maybe the pickaxe icon resource is metal which will increase the faction's ship's hull armors. The main concern against this would be that it might snowball the wars, such that one faction has more resources causing their players to be more powerful, but as the map is inspired by Risk, need I point out that that game is exactly the same? I recently player Risk for the first time, and at first it would be quite well balanced, but as the game went on, one or two players started growing more than the rest, in turn making them more powerful than the others. Players of a certain faction might start to get frustrated that their faction is losing, but that would mean that the game would start snowballing, causing the season to end much sooner.


I see tons of provinces on the map that I would like to fight in, but can't because the game hasn't generated a battle in that location. What if each province could be interacted in individually, while the markers still showed up at any territories in which there was a particularly close fight going on, or the majority of players are involved in? This would keep it simple for newer players or anyone who isn't too interested in strategizing, while the strategy gamers among us would have more options to work with.

Quote from: Atruejedi's Email
battles are resolving themselves too fast
Battles currently seem to be taking only a few hours, which is a problem, especially with the amount of territories currently in the game. With this, we could have an entire faction swap land with another in just a few days. A territory should be valuable to a faction, and every time one is won, it should feel like a huge victory to that faction.


Quote from: Atruejedi's Email
That fucking spinning wheel/fan/watermill thing. It's so god damn distracting, becauseany movement attracts attention from the pilot.
I piloted a Magnate for the first time yesterday, and I did not get distracted too much by the watermill.

Quote from: Atruejedi's Email
The Shrike
"What a Piece of Junk!"
I can not for the life of me figure out what is more attractive about a Shrike than about a Corsair. Both ships have one side facing light gun and one side facing heavy gun, but the corsair also has an extra light and heavy gun on the front and back. The only advantage of a Shrike is the less complex layout, but any captain with any patience at all should be able to explain to their crew their responsibilities.

While on the topic of explaining the ship to a crew, there is not enough time at the beginning of a match to brief a new crew. I would recommend that enemy ships will not attack a ship until it has been moved, or a shot has been fired. This would allow time for captains to explain the ship to their crew, without leaving this up for abuse.





Aaand now to address the already existing responses:
there should really be more options for painting ships. Especially the new ones. Sure, you can paint the Magnate's balloon, but nobody's going to notice with all the bright yellow sails. They're all beautiful ships(mad props), but I'd love to customize them.
I do agree. I'm thinking about the new ships: most of them seem to balloons that are not really visible. What if the balloon is not what received the paint, but the largest visible aesthetic section was painted? For example on the Crusader, instead of painting the balloon, the large, red section of the armor is painted?

I like the Crusader, but god damn if I haven't had trouble going up those stairs from the heavy guns. I feel like the hitbox on the railing for the Crusader's stair case... isn't there. I've relied on that railing to be able to get me up the stairs because I have those days where my hand doesn't move the mouse fast enough to get me to face the exact middle of the top stair, just so I don't walk off the side... All I can ask is... Hitbox on that railing... please?
I love the crusader, but it is right now VERY buggy to move on. I can only walk from the mid guns to the armor about 50% off the time, the rest I simply fall off.
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: Daft Loon on August 06, 2016, 02:57:26 am
... I would suggest maybe 3 different unique map markers, one for airplane, one for boss, and one for the rest. Also, having names attached would be too chaotic with the large amount of alliance enemies, so maybe have a key on the left showing the difference between types of markers.


Isn't that how it is already? Airplanes get a small v-shaped marker, airships get a standard circular marker and bosses/player ships get the circular marker with a - sign inside it.
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: Inkjet on August 06, 2016, 04:36:08 am
I agree with most of your points from page 13-21:
Too many enemies, none of them feel purposeful. Giving them names could help. I, too, want to feel more STORY in the game. Make other damage types useful, no, not every gun needs to be useful, but having precise disables be useful, especially against bosses, would be a welcome change.
I would like to see boss ships be juggernauts. slow moving, hard to kill, but not necessarily nuking the player (*cough* Mercantile).

I also like your idea for single-shot consumables. They could even be purchased with real money if players didn't want to take the time to grind them out. Other games have this as an option, and so long as the price point is fair and the for-money option isn't better than the grind option, I would support it. You could even put a cooldown on how often these could be purchased.

I also completely agree with making locations take longer to take control of, and making it a big, important thing, complete with benefits and so on. I also agree with having the whole front line be "available" for attack, requiring the most active parts of the community to discuss where to focus their efforts.

Aside from all this, I HAD to reply to respond to a few ship-related things:
Magnate: You don't need stamina to do the side jump. You don't need to jump on the balloon to hit the main, jumping onto and then from the railing beside the balloon is sufficient. You didn't mention that you can grab the mid-guns from the aft side.

Corsair: Why fool with a stamina jump between turning engines when you can run between them along the metal bit? I didn't know about this, and didn't figure it out until 5s after I failed my first attempt at your stamina jump. The only advantage I can see is if you need to hit the engine and then get to the gun immediately, but I assumed when going from engine to engine, you're thinking about tanking while burning. You also didn't mention that you can grab the mid-guns from the fore.

The Shrike takes ~2s from spawn to drop down to the helm. I don't think this is an obscene amount of time, though the positioning still leaves a lot to be desired.
As for the turning engines on it, it takes ~1.82s to run between them using the stairs, 1.43s to run across the plank, and I don't see TOO much issue with it, at least, not much more than any other tight movement on other ships.
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: Richard LeMoon on August 06, 2016, 02:09:42 pm
Going to jump around rather than chronological order and make a few posts touching on some of the subjects. First up, weak points.


Frankly, I hate them. Not because they are hard to hit, though that is part of it. Mostly because they make no sense. I am talking about both boss ships and bases. Especially bases. I can SEE the generators on the bases, but I can't damage them because this is not their 'turn'. For bases, make them all active at once. All bases, all generators. Make the base legs weak points as well, susceptible to Flechette damage. Actually, completely rework how bases work.

Step 1. Define how they work. The outer structure of the base is weak to explosive, but armored. The armor and guns rebuild very rapidly due to power generators on the platforms. The base has an armored core that can not be destroyed easily. The legs are also heavily armored. As an addition, there would be a small coms balloon over the base (cargo sized balloon).

Step 2. Define order of attack.

     a. Take out the balloon with flechette. (optional) This prevents the base from calling in long range aid. If you fail to destroy the balloon before assaulting the base, a boss will be called in.
     b. Take out the generators (optional). These allow the base to repair its armor and guns at a ridiculous rate. Constant use of piercing would be needed to keep the armor down, only to have it almost instantly rebuilt. Each one destroyed slows the rebuild rate. However, change them to a component like engines and guns, so they have to be destroyed with Shatter instead of Explosive. And they also rebuild/repair like engines.
     c. Taking out the generators and the armor exposes the structure (hull). Destroy that, and most (but not all) of the base will collapse. The legs and part of the structure will remain. That base is now counted as destroyed, and you can move on.
     e. However, the escape ship will only spawn if you collapse the legs, which have been damaged by the rest of the structure falling on it. For game purposes, the legs would take the same types of damage as balloons, being fire and flechette. Once the legs and final structure fall to the ground, the people panic and an underground bunker opens, releasing the escape pod.

Then we move to boss ships...

Weak points are a good idea, but there should be a point to them other than chewing through layers. Like the bases, destroy power generators to slow armor rebuilds (optional). THEN we can start taking off layers of armor and hull (with no weak points). Have the weak points actually effect something else as well. Destroy small ports on the midsection (shatter) to sabotage weapon stores, slowing down gun movement and reloading. Destroy a main engineering point at the rear of the ship to slow ship movement and slow engine rebuilds. Destroy the helm to slow all ship operations. You would not have to do anything other than take down armor and hull to beat them, but everything else would make it easier.

And slow them down with more guns pointing in all directions. Trying to get to a weak point is an act of frustration, not fun.
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: Guagadu on August 07, 2016, 02:11:36 am
Something I forgot in my large post is the fact that Alliance stats shouldn't be included with Skirmish stats. For an example, let's use ram kills. I averaged about ram 1 ram kill every 2 matches is Skirmish. In the open alpha, I am averaging closer to 5 or 6 ram kills per match, due to the kamikaze airplanes hitting my Corsair and dying, bringing my overall average to about 1 ram kill every match. If stats for alliance are tracked at all, they need to be tracked separately, to avoid skewing stats.
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: Richard LeMoon on August 07, 2016, 09:45:43 am
On upgrades:

Again, I hate them. Not for personal use, as they are fun. However, on a meta game level, they mess up everything. As a pilot, I use to be able to tell my crew to bring specific things for specific tasks. Now I just say "Just bring whatever you want." because upgrades can now be better than what you would normally take, or just because you don't want to argue with anyone over them wanting to use their upgraded shizzel. I don't care to ask what level tools everyone has.

I was actually going to suggest single (or multiple) use items as something special to use a while ago, but that was before I thought they would ever have an upgrade system for tools. So, I shelved the idea. Tools are the last thing I thought would be upgrades, since they define your role in the game. Changing roles is bad in a crew-based game.

So, moving on to those items. With tools, there are only so many upgrades you can get, and you can only earn them once. With items, the possibilities are endless. Some would be class specific. Others would be usable by all.

Full match items:

Loot crate. An item on the ship that allows crew to change their loadouts.

Stowaway. Adds one AI with a pipe wrench to your crew. Can not use guns.

Wingman. Start the match with a small ally escort ship.

Ship tweaks. Change ship stats slightly for the match. This could include a lighter hull with faster engines, or more armor with higher mass, greater lift with higher ignition chance, or slower turning guns with more power.

Coffee. Increase stamina regain rate.

Single use items:

Air strike. Call in your own fleet of bombers.

Artillery. Call in an artillery strike using rangefinder to target.

Specialty, one reload ammos. Completely OP, but Ok because you only get one clip per match.

Upgrade ammo. Upgrade your current ammo for one clip.

Spare parts. Allow the rebuild of some permahull.

Super buff. Buffs the entire ship instantly.

Fly the colors. Your ship will not be attacked until you attack. Your ship must be unspotted to activate.

Elixir. Fully refill stamina.

Anyways, if each of these came in tiers (lasting longer, more powerful, more uses) with higher cost, you can easily see how this would keep players much more engaged than a simple upgrade system. If something seems OP or overused, it is easy to balance by simply adjusting the effect, or removing future purchase. It is much harder to balance tools, since people already have them, and got them for the desired effect. Lessen the effect, and people will be upset.

 
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: Huskarr on August 07, 2016, 06:02:48 pm
On upgrades:

Again, I hate them. Not for personal use, as they are fun. However, on a meta game level, they mess up everything. As a pilot, I use to be able to tell my crew to bring specific things for specific tasks. Now I just say "Just bring whatever you want." because upgrades can now be better than what you would normally take, or just because you don't want to argue with anyone over them wanting to use their upgraded shizzel. I don't care to ask what level tools everyone has.

I was actually going to suggest single (or multiple) use items as something special to use a while ago, but that was before I thought they would ever have an upgrade system for tools. So, I shelved the idea. Tools are the last thing I thought would be upgrades, since they define your role in the game. Changing roles is bad in a crew-based game.

So, moving on to those items. With tools, there are only so many upgrades you can get, and you can only earn them once. With items, the possibilities are endless. Some would be class specific. Others would be usable by all.

Full match items:

Loot crate. An item on the ship that allows crew to change their loadouts.

Stowaway. Adds one AI with a pipe wrench to your crew. Can not use guns.

Wingman. Start the match with a small ally escort ship.

Ship tweaks. Change ship stats slightly for the match. This could include a lighter hull with faster engines, or more armor with higher mass, greater lift with higher ignition chance, or slower turning guns with more power.

Coffee. Increase stamina regain rate.

Single use items:

Air strike. Call in your own fleet of bombers.

Artillery. Call in an artillery strike using rangefinder to target.

Specialty, one reload ammos. Completely OP, but Ok because you only get one clip per match.

Upgrade ammo. Upgrade your current ammo for one clip.

Spare parts. Allow the rebuild of some permahull.

Super buff. Buffs the entire ship instantly.

Fly the colors. Your ship will not be attacked until you attack. Your ship must be unspotted to activate.

Elixir. Fully refill stamina.

Anyways, if each of these came in tiers (lasting longer, more powerful, more uses) with higher cost, you can easily see how this would keep players much more engaged than a simple upgrade system. If something seems OP or overused, it is easy to balance by simply adjusting the effect, or removing future purchase. It is much harder to balance tools, since people already have them, and got them for the desired effect. Lessen the effect, and people will be upset.

(http://i.imgur.com/jQ2qLzI.png)


Also
(http://i.imgur.com/jQ2qLzI.png)
on everything you said.

Exept the Shrike. I love maining the Shrike, but that is probably because I'm not a big fan of shooting in general (part of the reason why I love the flare so much.)
Title: RE:"That thing's operational!"-Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: Letheliah on August 08, 2016, 04:40:14 pm
I've been writing this for two hours, Jedi. You should send me cookies.

So I agree with alot of what Jedi wrote, and said as much in game, but we figured I might as well post my thoughts on Alliance here (and I'll probably copypasta it elsewhere) so we can further the discussion and brainstorming.

Once more unto the breach, dear friends... Here's some more word vomit covering Jedi's essay, some replys in this thread, and further feedback I have on Alliance DLC that I hadn't already emailed previously to Muse. Sorry it's so spastic and lazy, but that's my thought process and writing style. While I truly want to make it perfect, i would go overboard editing it and it would be legit torture for me in the end. Gomenasai!~~ Q___Q




I would LOVE a more immersive backstory from Alliance. I have already gone through the main site reading as much as I can into the history of Burren and each faction, the famous pilots and ships, I have head canons for my own Bardgineer, Tribal Sniper, and Flight Lieutenant Pilot (she's not a captain, but her ship and crew were separated from their armada and are flying treacherous skies with only her own judgement to guide her! xD) and there is SO much that can be done to add to this that I am sure they just havent released yet. I think faction voice packs could be nice if done carefully. I like the idea of Newspapers, or perhaps a heavily populated "Tavern" or "Garage" or Faction Intelligence Base where we can get news of lost and gained territories and such. A "Base" could be modeled the same, but flavor text would style it to be unique to each faction. I.e. Fjords and Chaladons could probably have Newspapers, but Arashi and Angleans (who probably don't have wood or paper) would rely on scouts returning from the frontier with this information or an airship garage where they hear this information by word of mouth.

I don't mind the model style of the planes as the look doesn't detract from the game for me, but I DO think bi-wings and changing it up to make them more ramshackle and steampunk could only improve the atmosphere of the game. They become more of a problem than enemy ships in the harder game modes with 3 or 4 ships, and their AI paths could def use some remapping so they're not flying into things so much, but I don't think they are a big enough aspect of the game to focus on and so again they don't detract the submersion for me, they are just there.
You could improve on it this way though, as stated by HamsterIV:


* Restrict airplanes to open sky sections of the map. If an airship flies too low or too close to canyons the airplanes should peel off and go back to patrolling a safe stretch of sky. This would allow the pilot to out maneuver the airplanes and with the airplanes contained to a certain area they can be purposefully engaged with long range guns if they present too much of a threat.

* Add immobile ground or balloon based turrets in areas of the map that the airplanes can not reach. This can be a simple as a gun on the back of a truck that drives into position from a hidden spawn when the player is not looking. Being static and possibly ground based allows the players more agency in how to deal with them. Also slow moving shot drop weapons would be more effective since the gunners can calibrate their aim from the ground hits and the splash damage.

I think it's possible to use those stationary guns from defense well in this case. Though I think creating moving ground forces would be cool it would also require more time and work. But as Hamster stated, the need for different weapons and ammo types to target these forces could mean a ship has more play styles and objectives to choose from (also, achievements to work towards!).

Spotting as crew is a pain in the arse; it's only worth using far away, as the close you get when you're trying to kill this one ship, it's too zoomed in and you can barely see the hull and health. That being said, I also prefer the obscure way you can tell how damaged a ship is in Skirmish: the breaking ships and those red crosses.
Also it would be nice if ally ships were targetable as well, with the ability to see their hull and health a valuable asset (not all captains can communicate via mic, and chat while viable means taking your attention away from your ship to write). This is a skirmish complaint for me as well.
Otherwise, I like the spotting system for pilot, though needing to not use pilot tools to target it is annoying. I personally have difficulty seeing the faint light outlines around the spotted enemy combatants (and especially in the white clouds of some maps, Sea of Alleron being one, forget trying to spot planes..), perhaps having a menu option to choose to use a different color? Or an animated aura/target that circles the enemy?


Ramming could use more damage.

Ramming is perfect in novice it feels realistic , but in normal and higher difficulties there's a huge jump in the amount of damage it does. So in novice I'm able to get 3 hit rams but in normal it takes 3 times that.

Ramming is a fun part of the game for me and many others, but it wasn't really a feasible option in Alliance against any of the ships. With balancing out armors for all the player's faction ships and AI faction ships, please keep in mind ramming. Logically some ships are stronger rammers and some are weak being rammed, but with the AI repair and rebuild being notched up each mode it wasn't feasible.


Some very minor quibbles, but I'm nothing if not vain; there should really be more options for painting ships. Especially the new ones. Sure, you can paint the Magnate's balloon, but nobody's going to notice with all the bright yellow sails. They're all beautiful ships(mad props), but I'd love to customize them. Come on, there's an entire store tab dedicated to tricking out your skyboat.

It may be not as important, but I completely agree and it was my immediate complaint with the new ships; they were SO much more colorful than the Skirmish ships and I wanted to change there colors to suit ME. The ability to paint more textures on the ship would mean more paint sales for Muse, the ability to NOT confuse ally ships (the blue sails aren't always enough), AND a pilot can happily fly something that's to their palette (I like the shrike, but the colors are sooooooo not me. This is the case for most of the ships tbh).

One thing I dislike about Assault is how linear and predictable it is; I'd prefer if the outposts, base and respective generators, as well as the boss ship, were all targetable as soon as you load into the map (though I imagine this may cause issues with spawn and lag that would need to be addressed), though not seen on the map until spotted via spyglass or Captain spot. It would make scouting ship like the Shrike, Squid and Goldfish a desirable ally in searching for these targets as well as break up the mundane "Destroy outpost one, maybe destroy outpost two, forced to destroy Boss because it's hovering over the third outpost and thus you can't get to the base to end the game..." problem. War effort and personal points would be rewarded depending on the objectives you could complete, and while not all of them are necessary to be destroyed, just the end objective i.e. destroy the base, destroying outposts would benefit with less enemy spawns.

I enjoy Defense, but I think some minor tweaks may be needed to enemy and boss ships. While killing the boss isn't necessary, if you can't get the balloon back to base in time you lose, thus fighting the boss becomes mandatory. Perhaps if the ground turrets in one respective "lane" were destroyed before it could target the base, it would give pilots enough time without having to prioritize the boss. Losing turrets would mean losing points at the end of the match.

Upgrade system: I'm thinking of this from a Skirmish Mode perspective so if this remains in Alliance mode only, I suppose it could work if the system is tweaked. If it's implemented into Skirmish mode however I think it would unbalance the player base. Certain ships will be made stronger or weaker depending on the crew, it will encourage pubs to form, and as I've stated before in emails, it will make many of the items obsolete in comparison to the upgrade metas that the captains will force crews to take (assuming that said crew even listens to the captain. So far, they haven't). Obviously the ability to repsec your points could fix this, but it may be a constant thing in order to fit the needs of the ship your on, and I don't think I'd enjoy doing that every 30 minute lobby interval, not when I may also be attempting to fix various loadouts. The upgrade system really limits us. I personally prefer a diverse selection of tools and ammos to choose from to work my tactics.


On upgrades:
Again, I hate them. Not for personal use, as they are fun. However, on a meta game level, they mess up everything. As a pilot, I use to be able to tell my crew to bring specific things for specific tasks. Now I just say "Just bring whatever you want." because upgrades can now be better than what you would normally take, or just because you don't want to argue with anyone over them wanting to use their upgraded shizzel. I don't care to ask what level tools everyone has.

I was actually going to suggest single (or multiple) use items as something special to use a while ago, but that was before I thought they would ever have an upgrade system for tools. So, I shelved the idea. Tools are the last thing I thought would be upgrades, since they define your role in the game. Changing roles is bad in a crew-based game.

So, moving on to those items. With tools, there are only so many upgrades you can get, and you can only earn them once. With items, the possibilities are endless. Some would be class specific. Others would be usable by all.

Full match items:

Loot crate. An item on the ship that allows crew to change their loadouts.

Stowaway. Adds one AI with a pipe wrench to your crew. Can not use guns.

Wingman. Start the match with a small ally escort ship.

The idea of items intrigues me, though it would also be just as hard to implement as the upgrades I think. These in particular I like though; an added engie for that Corsair? Check!
Why don't we fly in with a battalion of planes of our own? Or at least an AI manned ally ship? It'd be necessary if you prefer or are stuck playing single ship in Alliance.

Speaking of, the macthmaking..... ughhhhh....
I have no idea how queues are formed, but it's usually single ships, the extended search time probably overrides your preference of server (even when t plops you in solo with an empty lobby), it ususally not even against the faction you originally set out against (and sometimes not even WITH your faction), and they take up the majority of queues so making 2vE or higher more difficult. Though I believe you will still be gaining the war effort in your deployed area, it's confusing and makes forming crews with friends in enemy factions more difficult. Making Custom Games is really the only way to play with your faction and friends. Is it even necessary to show the fighting parties, or could we do away with it altogether so that the war effort you gain goes to your deployed territory regardless of "where" you fight with your (enemy faction) friends?

Shrike: Just throw double gunner on it. They're stamina ability with the right ammos could make some arcs more feasible, yes? (But I don't plan gun arcs well. I main engie and my skills at Captain are limited to piloting and map awareness, not the weapons aspect.) The staircase rail could be fixed so engies can stop getting their clothes and tools stuck on those back engines.[/color]
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: Hoja Lateralus on August 08, 2016, 06:47:13 pm
When I think of it GOIO world always seemed like just steampunk air-pirates free-for-all, so it would be cool to actually have a zone which no faction controls, a kind of "What about this dark spot there? Never go there, Simba" place, an outer rim territory. It would be neat if some semi-random (low force) raid attacks could happen from that area, but that's probably not going to happen.

Well, newspapers is just an idea, it can be just explained as a kind of meeting with some of your faction higher-ups who makes a quick briefing (assuming: right before you move out to battle). It also gives opportunity for fluff exposition (hint hint, devs said that whatever happens in open beta is canon now). Anyway some kind of algorithm for creating short notes about the world, I think many forum witers can help with that.

About "marking" your ally being captain and knowing their hull - probably not going to happen, this is a design choice, such us unclear colours of sails/flags or whatever there is there.

Speaking of, the macthmaking..... ughhhhh....
I have no idea how queues are formed, but it's usually single ships, the extended search time probably overrides your preference of server (even when t plops you in solo with an empty lobby), it ususally not even against the faction you originally set out against (and sometimes not even WITH your faction), and they take up the majority of queues so making 2vE or higher more difficult. Though I believe you will still be gaining the war effort in your deployed area, it's confusing and makes forming crews with friends in enemy factions more difficult. Making Custom Games is really the only way to play with your faction and friends. Is it even necessary to show the fighting parties, or could we do away with it altogether so that the war effort you gain goes to your deployed territory regardless of "where" you fight with your (enemy faction) friends?

This is a huge problem for two reasons:
Firstly, we should assume that people would want to be loyal to their factions, because that's the point, to get more territories, to get faction rewards etc, so it creates a quick division. I am a Guild player - I want to play Guild matches only if possible. Then if situation is sticky I may consider being a mercenary. Match against my faction? Never. And at first, when hype was still there and population reached 700 it was fairly easy to find a good match, but when it dropped to 300ish (didn't play last 2 days, probably even lower now) it was really difficult and this is WITH most matches being one ship, which I think should be forbidden. At this point I am wondering if it wouldn't be smart to just scrap one faction entirely and leave it at 3.
Even bigger issue would be when people frustrated by not being able to find a match (and also by getting constantly whopped on the map) changed factions to the winning side. I'm willing to bet that this was at least partially the case in this 8-day alpha with Chaladon's domination (perhaps devs could check the 'active' members). I mean, we all want Alliance to succed, but what if? I think to avoid this devs would have to either:
a) implement a purge, map reset feature once in a while with borders going back to their default state (frequency up to debate)
b) implement a system of handicapping the factions that grow too strong (remember pirate raids?)
c) perhaps implement a system where territories further into core lands are harder to conquer (supply lines, more population solidarity and willingness to fight, etc) OR at least take longer to conquer. Or just every territory further has additional bonus-free fortifications?

Also, one thing that bothers me in world progress. The rewards sound like warfare is mostly through land (defense = palisades and stuff, and soldiers as attackers) which makes no sense to the lore. I thought that battles are mostly through ships, in the air and then whoever is left takes the city (people care about their lives so they don't revolt when literally at gunpoint). In game we see a lot of turrets, planes and ships OUTSIDE OF HIGHLY POPULATED AREAS. Land attack sounds like suicide. I think the defences (like palisades) should be replaced with turrets and offensives should be replaced with ships or sth like that.

And my pet peeve, while on assault it always frustrates me that every time there is something small blocking the view (and shots) in front of the generators (or whatever we are destroying on the towers). Like some small pipe, or rope or something. Not sure if it's on purpose or not.
Title: Re: "That thing's operational!" - Atruejedi's Star Wars-themed thoughts on Alliance
Post by: PuddleGrumpkin on August 10, 2016, 11:24:11 am
Something I forgot in my large post is the fact that Alliance stats shouldn't be included with Skirmish stats. For an example, let's use ram kills. I averaged about ram 1 ram kill every 2 matches is Skirmish. In the open alpha, I am averaging closer to 5 or 6 ram kills per match, due to the kamikaze airplanes hitting my Corsair and dying, bringing my overall average to about 1 ram kill every match. If stats for alliance are tracked at all, they need to be tracked separately, to avoid skewing stats.

I enjoyed my +300 kills from a week of Alliance Open Alpha and my +50 Ram Kills. Makes me look like less of a scrub (to quote jedi). They don't effect achievements, but I wouldn't be opposed to keeping them... or having a separate set of stats for Alliance.