Guns Of Icarus Online

Info => News and Announcements => Release Notes => Topic started by: Grixis on May 23, 2016, 07:33:56 am

Title: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Grixis on May 23, 2016, 07:33:56 am
New content:

New VIP Game Mode:

You’ve gone out on your own to play this mode, and we’ve seen how much fun you all have.  We’ve connected with Tropo, Richard, and KitkatKitty the creator and organizers of the player run VIP matches to discover how your rules and nuances make the mode fun.  Score points by killing each team’s VIP.  If the VIP kills another VIP, you get bonus points!  First team to get the required points wins the match.  Important thing to note, the first ship on each team in the match lobby is designated as the VIP.  Plan accordingly!  There are 5 revised maps to play this hectic mode on with a set of achievements to boot.  Happy Hunting.

New Tutorial:

The best crew member is a crew who knows how to complete basic tasks on the ship.  This is why we’ve completely revamped our tutorial to ensure that new players can have a place on every ship.  It even offers mini-game challenges that even the experienced players can test the skills with and earn medals.  There are tutorials for all classes and each one is meticulously instructed by Captain Morrison via radio (just in case you crash the ship).  These revisions should offer a more in-depth yet concise, and highly engaging way to learn how to play the game.

New Friend Referral:

Our players have gone out of their way to recruit, refer, and bring in an amazing number of friends, and it’s vital to the growth of our community. It’s the reason we have such great clans and upstanding players. To reward and push for more players to do the same, we’ve added in a referral system. On the main page you can click the “Review and Recruit” button to get your code and give it to friends. Once they redeem this code you and them will earn items, dyes, and exclusive titles! Each player can only be recruited once so make sure to grab your friends quickly and look for more.

New Coupon System:

A new reward has been added into the game. Coupons! You’ll be able to receive these in the new friend referral feature and in other upcoming reward systems. These coupons will give you your choice of items from the store at a discount instead of simply being assigned a reward. Once you get one all you have to do is use the store and you will see your coupon applied on checkout.

New Workshop Items:

Decals

Hats

Changes:


Bugfixes:

Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: The Mann on May 23, 2016, 08:04:30 am
Ooh!

I look forward to trying these when I get home from work.  :D
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Daft Loon on May 23, 2016, 08:14:35 am
"Functionality of hold R and F to throttle forward and backward"

 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D


"Disallow players to move to the other team via spectator in system-made lobby"

I forsee a lot of hate for this but if it makes (relatively better) balanced lobbies form faster in practice I could live with it.


"Message saying guns are locked because player is in novice yet he isn't"

That one was really starting to get annoying, glad to see it fixed

"Message saying guns are locked because player is in novice yet s/he isn't"

That one was really starting to get annoing, glad to see it fixed in an inclusive manner
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Tfaltys on May 23, 2016, 08:43:58 am
Just gonna mention here that on Labyrinth the majority of buildings are now invisible. Not sure if this is a feature
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: HelFyre on May 23, 2016, 09:32:34 am
VIP mode seems very fun.

I played the pilot tutorial and noticed that the keys for changing throttle/assigning AI etc aren't indicated. Furthermore it's a bad example to have the gatling/mortar this way round in the pilot tutorial.

In the engineer tutorial, the chef spray run test is bugged, if you fail the test, it doesn't properly reset.
I like the positional audio and Brian leaning against the pyramidion wall. I feel like there should be some clearer indication to the correlation between engine thrust (or speed) and health- when damaged the ship changes direction and moves slower. It's worth mentioning that the balloon takes significantly more fire damage. A simulation (or test) to show the advantage of using them spray would have been nice, but is probably more than you want to offer.

In the gunner tutorial, the gunner should be given a pipe wrench. We're told to examine the description of ammo to try and see what they're useful for, a suggestion that more experienced players will be able to offer good advice is ideal here, for obvious reasons. We didn't see how stamina can be used to turn guns further. We didn't see the idea of arming range, either, so i can't find any place where it's explained clearly. That's ok. Again the gatling and mortar are on the wrong sides, though I see why this is done, it's rather unfortunate.

I wasn't able to review these tutorials beforehand due to personal constraints

Finally, for now, upon finishing a game, I wasn't able to navigate to the stats/score tabs as before (in the postgame analysis).

---
Nice costumes

Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: HelFyre on May 23, 2016, 11:00:29 am
Also "ships fall faster."
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: The Mann on May 23, 2016, 11:08:00 am
*Prepares Blenderfish and Carro Pyra*    8)
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Schwalbe on May 23, 2016, 11:21:13 am
Quote
Disallow players to move to the other team via spectator in system-made lobby

Why such fuckery?
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Hoja Lateralus on May 23, 2016, 11:30:14 am
Quote
Disallow players to move to the other team via spectator in system-made lobby

Thanks, Obama :/

Edit: Schwalbe delivers
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Fynx on May 23, 2016, 11:41:06 am
In general, this patch is awesome. However...


Quote from: Grixis on May 23, 2016, 07:33:56 am
Disallow players to move to the other team via spectator in system-made lobby

Fortunately there're few workarounds for this game breaking bug.
1. You can try to crewform with friends and hope you're going to be put in the same lobby your friend just left to play with you (or wait an eternity to find another one)
2. You can queue as a spectator and hope you get into the same lobby as your friend is in
3. You can create a lobby with your friends in it and open it to the queue.

I understand the intention to balance the lobbies, but hey, this is ridiculous. It doesn't even prevent the clan stacks joining from queue with full teams.

Quote from: Grixis on May 23, 2016, 07:33:56 am
New VIP Game Mode

There are certain issues with this. There were already proposals about "little" points being scored by killing ships other than VIP, otherwise there's the VIP ship flying around and his ally / allies rushing the enemy VIP. That takes forever for less than experienced players, it's even worse than old CPs.


Additionally, I think there are some unintentional fall physics changes... would be nice if that was addressed. Ships tend to fall really fast now.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Watchmaker on May 23, 2016, 11:47:14 am
Quote from: Fynx on May 23, 2016, 11:41:06 am
Additionally, I think there are some unintentional fall physics changes... would be nice if that was addressed. Ships tend to fall really fast now.

This was a misconfiguration, and should be fixed now.  The peril of unreleased features.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: MightyKeb on May 23, 2016, 12:31:01 pm
Quote from: Watchmaker on May 23, 2016, 11:47:14 am
Quote from: Fynx on May 23, 2016, 11:41:06 am
Additionally, I think there are some unintentional fall physics changes... would be nice if that was addressed. Ships tend to fall really fast now.

This was a misconfiguration, and should be fixed now.  The peril of unreleased features.

Additional bugs:

- It's not just Lab that has invisible buildings, it's Paritan aswell.

- The new HUD from dev app is in Skirmish, despite there being no patch notes about it.

- Spire is set to a 1 star ship and is available in novice matches (It's been a few patches since tihs happened, please fix this, not only does it conflict with the objective difficulty of spire but ruins novice game balance.)
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Atruejedi on May 23, 2016, 12:37:40 pm
Quote
Disallow players to move to the other team via spectator in system-made lobby

GET THE PITCHFORKS!!!

This is seriously so stupid. WHY!?!
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: BobDoleReigns on May 23, 2016, 12:48:56 pm
Quote from: Atruejedi on May 23, 2016, 12:37:40 pm
Quote
Disallow players to move to the other team via spectator in system-made lobby

GET THE PITCHFORKS!!!

This is seriously so stupid. WHY!?!

+1... Like do you even play your own game? I mean who's rear did you pull this crap out of? Whoever though this was a good idea needs to be looking for a new job.

TLDR; hotfix on friday?
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Schwalbe on May 23, 2016, 02:12:58 pm
It's not the first time Muse did so, only to enrage the playerbase.

Because the idea is retarded.

Also. New HUD. Umh. These proportions are just wrong; and not in a Quake1 architecture sense.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Dementio on May 23, 2016, 02:14:50 pm
To be fair, if you really want somebody to be on the same team as you, there is a crew formation. Matchmaking's job is to create balanced lobbies, which is difficult with a low playerbase, switching around destroys the balance. Swap slot is still possible though and is a more fair solution, as the other person has to accept the shift of balance created by swapping around.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: BobDoleReigns on May 23, 2016, 04:04:34 pm
Quote from: Dementio on May 23, 2016, 02:14:50 pm
To be fair, if you really want somebody to be on the same team as you, there is a crew formation. Matchmaking's job is to create balanced lobbies, which is difficult with a low playerbase, switching around destroys the balance. Swap slot is still possible though and is a more fair solution, as the other person has to accept the shift of balance created by swapping around.

Except the part where there is literally no reason to matchmaking beyond 'lets get these players in a game asap' which is perfectly fine and working as intended.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Daft Loon on May 23, 2016, 06:07:01 pm
Gunner tutorial:

How to spam V commands at pilot - Vital

The existence of range as one of the most important aspects of the game - Meh, they'll figure it out on their own
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Richard LeMoon on May 23, 2016, 07:02:28 pm
Stop thinking like a person that knows how to play the game with people that know how to play the game. Communication is more important than range to novices, especially to pilots. Shooting before you are in range is much less of a problem than guns not being in arc.

From what I gather (and strongly suggest), there may be more advance training/challenge modes focusing on different aspects of the game. This intro is just general stuff. A range specific training challenge (for each gun even) would be much more conducive to good gameplay than jamming it into a short tutorial that most people will just want to skip.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Daft Loon on May 23, 2016, 07:19:52 pm
Advanced training modes would be great, but it wouldn't be a huge addition to have a brief mention of range in the initial gunners tutorial. It could be as simple as one target spawning further away and a prompt to use lesmok ammo to hit it, which would double as an introduction to the effects of one of the main ammo types.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: BobDoleReigns on May 23, 2016, 09:24:59 pm
To readdress the point... this patch is utterly gamebrteaking and goi is not worth playing until its rectified... but of course muse is blissfully unaware pof how bad they screwed up so we're gonna lay down some scenarios/situations

1.) I join a game and its a 2v2 with my side having a complete stacked ship and one decent. On the other side you've got plebs who don't know the difference between a carro and a minno... I don't care about my w/l I d not want to play a 10m waste of a match noobstomping but I'm unable to switch and help them thus I leave and reque.

2.) I join a nearly full game and mm stick me on a boat with someone I utterly hate to fly with. I have no options to switch to a perfectly fine open slot the other side. I leave and reque.

3.) I'm tired of playing with randoms and see my bud  is playing. I click Join crew but their crew is already full. Now I'm stuck on a boat with a bunch of random people but hey look, there is an open captains slot on my bud's team... oh wait. I leave and reque.

4.) I actually manage to find a bearable game and play a match. I see a ship struggling. I think to myself, I'm gonna go fly with these clowns next match to try to help them out. Shuffle happens and they're on the otherside the next match. I may not necessarily reque but the entire game is worse for it.

5.) I'm flying with my friend, one of my other friends is on the other team. He's captaining when two first match people hop on his ship. Ok, I'm a nice guy... I'll go help engy so they can maybe live long enough to learn something... oh wait... He gets understandably frustrated and reques.

6.) I like being on the red team the matchmaker puts me on the blue team. I leave and reque.

7.) You are playing late at night and you've got openings on both sides and one player too many on one side. No problem, they switch to the other side and someone searching for a match as a full crew will drop in... oh wait. Now the whole lobby will have to wait god know how much longer (during the wee hours potentially a very long hr+ time) or the lone person who is likely already a new player without friends or reason to play the game could be a good sport about it an go to the spectate slot allowing a full crew to join and the game... except now there is no spot for them. They leave the match and don't bother requiring because you know what? the game is kindof like the life they are playing the game to escape from. Everyone is in a hurry and wants to maximize their own satisfaction leaving no room for the poor unwanted noob. We'll skip the sad part and just leave it at little Johnny didn't make it.

8.) I've been requeing for 30m trying to find a game which was difficult enough back when everyone had freedom to play as they want. I'm tired and decide I'd rather play literally anything besides this piece of crap. I'm so frustrated that I write bad reviews so that hopefully nobody will ever waste their money on this game with such egregiously out of touch developers.




But while we're here lets go over some lifestyle choices this change doesn't effect and/or encourages

1.) I'm a scumbag who only flys with my l45 friends. I crew form (like muse says this is supposed to encourage) with my l45 friends and we find a match.
1.A) Its a completely lopsided match but who cares we'll just noobstomp and pad our w/l and the other side will have a completely miserable time but who really cares about them because they already bought the game and are hopefully past the 2 hour steam refund period.
1.B) people join the match but are smart enough to see the no fun for anyone disaster imposing. they leave. Some people on the stacked team think ok I'll just go to the other side to get the game rolling... oh wait...

2.) I que into the same game as above. I'm also a piece of scum who cares about my w/l... I want to play on the winning side. I can't thus I leave and reque.

Its not like that adds anything to the game. You weren't taking up slots people wanted before you were cleaning up abandoned slots and balancing the lobby or playing with more enjoyable crews. "Well you can just swap slots derpity chirp de derp." -Muse. Uh oh anybody else see it coming?... Newsflash: you can't swap slots with an empty slot. Regardless... I'm fuming and tired now so more to come...
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Lu Lu on May 24, 2016, 07:22:31 am
What ever happened to testing patches before release and taking feedback?  Did you learn nothing after the last big patch? 
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Huskarr on May 24, 2016, 09:03:32 am
Quote from: Luharis on May 24, 2016, 07:22:31 am
What ever happened to testing patches before release and taking feedback?  Did you learn nothing after the last big patch?

Testing happened every Saturday. The weekend before the patch every day.  We tested mainly VIP. And everyone was encouraged to test the tutorials.

What else would you have wanted tested? No balance changes were made.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: The Mann on May 24, 2016, 09:15:11 am
Quote from: Luharis on May 24, 2016, 07:22:31 am
What ever happened to testing patches before release and taking feedback?  Did you learn nothing after the last big patch?

Huskarr has a point,

Testing typically takes place, friday, saturday and sunday.

Furthermore, All we knew about was the gameplay - VIP and Skyball.

There was no testing involving features such as Spectate and thus the testing sessions should not be accountable for that.

Personally, those testing sessions showed me a tonne of bugs and I sent in a lot of feedback, thanks to that, you can actually play on City Hunt without spawning inside a building. 
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Keyvias on May 24, 2016, 10:01:21 am
@ BobDoleReigns
Hello!
You've put in a lot here and definitely thank you for the specific use cases (which I'll get to in a second.)
The major reason that spectator swapping existed was we used to not have a system swap option. So if we didn't have the spectator swap you would have to stay there. It was basically a bug that we let become a feature because we didn't build a better tool until later. With ship and slot swapping in game though we wanted to remove something that is OFTEN abused for making balance worse and stomping. You are right sometimes people use it for noble ends, but that is not always the case, but hopefully those people will use slot and ship swap for the same end.

1.) You can use ship or slot swap, all it adds is one of those players agreeing to swap, which if the lobby was full already you'd have to anyways.

2.) If this is the case, yes, or use custom game to instantly join a lobby

3.) If there's a slot on his team open, you can simply rejoin on him and it should choose his team (in order, his ship, his team, other team.) If that's not the case then its a bug.

4.) Again, ship and slot swap are there.

5.) Oddly specific situation. You could swap yourself or one of your friends over with the swap slot feature or add the new player as a friend, quit the lobby and join on him.

6.) Yup, sometimes you're going to play the other color.

7.) Or he adds someone on the other side as a friend and joins on them after leaving the lobby. Thus saving Johnny from his apparently lonely and depressing life he didn't make it through.

8.) And that's your right. You are free to think that we have ruined the game for closing a loophole, that you may have used well, but was being abused by many players. And if spectator swapping was all that kept us from being a "piece of shit," then I apologize, we believed, as I listed above, the way to still have a use case for those situations, but if there's any I missed. Please let me know.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Richard LeMoon on May 24, 2016, 11:39:10 am
Going to agree with Keyvias. Eight situations were given. Out of 100, the other 92 are simply abuse of the system that ends up with team stacking and ships leaving.

If you want choice options when joining MM, join as spectator.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Atruejedi on May 24, 2016, 12:28:38 pm
Quote from: Richard LeMoon on May 24, 2016, 11:39:10 am
Out of 100, the other 92 are simply abuse of the system that ends up with team stacking and ships leaving.

Wrong. This doesn't prevent stacking. Stacked ships and teams simply don't rematch. Removing this swapping functionality doesn't fix that. You should have seen the absurdity of trying to balance and fill out lobbies last night. So frustrating.

Quote
If you want choice options when joining MM, join as spectator.

Sorry, but what? You're advocating I should search for matches using matchmaker, then choose to be on blue or red? Doesn't that seem completely screwed up to you?
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Schwalbe on May 24, 2016, 12:48:05 pm
Also, this change kinda fucks up joining a lobby before match in Custom Game view.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Keyvias on May 24, 2016, 01:04:52 pm
@Schwalbe,

A very interesting note, if you join a matchmaking game through the custom game menu it actually does try to put you in based on balance. So if your goal is to join a match with balance in mind, the system is already attempting doing that
Again though if you join off friend join it still prioritizes you to your friends crew/team
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Lieutenant Noir on May 24, 2016, 01:06:10 pm
Quote from: Richard LeMoon on May 24, 2016, 11:39:10 am
If you want choice options when joining MM, join as spectator.

Shhhh
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Lu Lu on May 24, 2016, 02:22:53 pm
Is there any way at all to revert the hud? This new one is just very clunky, and it ends up blocking the component healths.  This is of course disastrous as an engineer.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Keyvias on May 24, 2016, 02:32:47 pm
@Luharis,
Trying to figure out why new hud elements were introduced.

To confirm we're seeing a different compass, pilot skills, and possibly gun and hull health. Is there anything I'm missing?
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Lu Lu on May 24, 2016, 02:44:51 pm
No, that about sums it up.  The actual information it provides is nice, but HUD itself looks very awkward and takes up too much space on the screen, especially as an engineer.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: BobDoleReigns on May 24, 2016, 03:01:39 pm
...After typing up yet another rant and deciding to delete its inappropriate for some of us to care so much about the game when you all (muse) don't I'd like to go a different approach... Keyvias, why don't you and a couple of the other muse people take a break, set aside a few hours some random night/day/whatever and go slumming (playing random pub matches) with the Jedi (lbh, regardless of what people think of his personality nobody will deny that nobody cares as much or is as scientific/logical about goi) and experience the grievances firsthand?
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Schwalbe on May 24, 2016, 03:32:56 pm
Keyvias, imagine a situation, where the side with your friends is full in a moment of you accepting the invitation.
The invitation is sent when there's a free space left, only to be filled by matchfaker (pun fully intended) with some punk ass with voice chat disabled (because "12 year old kids", boo-hoo) or whatever nuisance.

do
{
You are getting in a lobby against your friends.
The nuisance ignores the swap invite (most new players doesn't even know they can block people individually, I wonder why), instead - getting out of the lobby. Natural way of getting to your friends is going there through spectators, but now its impossible.

So you are leaving the lobby, and either using the same invite, asking your friends or requeuing in hope for the best.

The thing is, all these three options take time, during which matchfaker may put another player - probably the same nuisance, because when not on sale, there's like 3 to 5 lobbies, and I wish I was kidding - in this spot.
}
while ( !getting in spot with your friends && ! match started && ! "fuck this shit, fuck this game" )


In case you haven't noticed - there's an infinite loop potential there. Though it's infinity is rather from perspective of time spent on fighting with this system compairing to just simple swapping through sodding spectator.



The point is, there's potential of more frustrating the player than anything else, really. People won't stop stacking and debalancing the lobbies, because of that - they will more likely be frustrated by more elaborate procedure, instead of dropping it, thus increasing the chance of ragequit.



As for the new HUD: recently I was battling with WPF. Which is an absolute bollock of technology, 2/10. The HUD currently in game looks like some shitty student like myself put to many Fill="Stretch" attributes on WPF controls. Which gives me both cancer cause it looks horribly, as well as PTSD because fuck WPF, fuck this shit who the hell in window application framework takes away the refresh command from developer to hide it beneath all the shitty event triggers and perma-references.

(http://cloud-3.steamusercontent.com/ugc/355022821962912448/3E30F22DFE0EFB0659874B2E9EB145624F302675/)
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Lanliss on May 24, 2016, 05:24:27 pm
Muse, I want to let you know, though I am sure you already do, not everyone thinks the game is now ruined. I like the update, and can see the reasons behind the changes to spectate swapping. I loved the new tutorials, and foresee them helping a lot. Of course, all of this is coming from a guy who only ever solo queues. I occasionally used the swapping, for noble purposes of course, but I can live without it, and don't really understand the rather violent reaction to it.

Have not tried VIP, but look forward to it, although I wouldn't mind the ability for a team to vote for who gets VIP, or for someone to volunteer as the VIP.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: ZnC on May 24, 2016, 06:32:56 pm
So I played VIP with the Gents last night and thought it was a fun yet competitive mode.

For those who've tried it - does anyone else think that when the VIP kills an escort, they should score 1 point?

I discussed this with a comp pilot and we noted a few things:
-In the current rule set, escort ships are expendable
-The only incentive for VIPs to be aggressive is to kill the enemy VIP
-Most of the time VIPs are too busy trying to stay alive against expendable ships

If VIPs score 1 point by killing an escort:
-Escorts are no longer expendable
-It would be more efficient for the VIP to be a kill ship
-This creates a dynamic where action is focused on assisting the VIPs
-In 2v2, a one-sided engagement can potentially be 3-0 (VIP kills VIP, then kills escort)
-Thus, games might end in 2 engagements without giving opponents chance for a comeback
-However, it can also potentially go 2-1, 2-0, 1-1, or 1-0
-Needs testing to see if victory condition needs to be increased
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Atruejedi on May 24, 2016, 06:40:47 pm
Quote from: Zanc on May 24, 2016, 06:32:56 pm
So I played VIP with the Gents last night and thought it was a fun yet competitive mode.

For those who've tried it - does anyone else think that when the VIP kills an escort, they should score 1 point?

I discussed this with a comp pilot and we noted a few things:
-In the current rule set, escort ships are expendable
-The only incentive for VIPs to be aggressive is to kill the enemy VIP
-Most of the time VIPs are too busy trying to stay alive against expendable ships

If VIPs score 1 point by killing an escort:
-Escorts are no longer expendable
-It would be more efficient for the VIP to be a kill ship
-This creates a dynamic where action is focused on assisting the VIPs
-In 2v2, a one-sided engagement can potentially be 3-0 (VIP kills VIP, then kills escort)
-Thus, games might end in 2 engagements without giving opponents chance for a comeback
-However, it can also potentially go 2-1, 2-0, 1-1, 1-0, or even 0-0
-Needs testing to see if victory condition needs to be increased

I just got done with a VIP dev match in which I was the VIP as a Squid. I cheesed my way out of combat and off the map the entire game. We won 1 to 5 after losing 0 to 1 at the beginning. This map mode is extremely open to abuse so I emailed Muse about it, but then I figured I'd demonstrate. How do I propose we fix it? I'll paste you what I emailed Muse yesterday...

Quote
5. VIP scoring is awful. I tried to help my allies get VIP kills for the beginning of the game, but when I realized they weren't really interested in helping, I just flew around the map the entire game, evading and dodging hwatcha and artemis fire. I lived. I ruined the match purposely by refusing to fight, but I know how to fix it. After countless allied deaths they eventually whittled down and killed the VIP enough for us to win. And that's stupid. We didn't deserve to win. We had no team work. How do you fix it? Easy. EASY.

[This is based on a 3 vs. 3 match]
Make killing the VIP worth 3 points.
Make VIP on VIP kills 5 points. [and please refer to my previous email where I address kill-stealing]
Make killing non-VIP ships worth 1 point.
Set the winning score threshold to 15.

These numbers basically align to your originals, i.e. 5 vanilla VIP deaths will still end the match. But now it won't stalemate because of dicks (like me!). Seriously. Easy. Fixed. Fun. Now I can't avoid the fight for the entire match and still win. I only did it to prove it's going to happen all. The. Time. For 4 vs. 4, you could just change the winning threshold to 20 instead of 15. And I still say get rid of 2 vs. 2 VIP, but you could make that threshold 10. Most people I talked to tonight did not enjoy it***. I mean, it can't hurt keeping it in-game, but the frequency has to be lowered or restricted to custom games. [also, please refer to my previous email about more lobby-creator control in custom matches; Chaos needs to be able to CHOOSE maps and map modes if we're going to keep this fresh; we'd love to have half VIP and half normal matches, but we need to be able to select very specific maps and modes in sequence; please? This benefits everybody! Also, please add names to lobbies again [like the old days] so players know if they've joined a stacked lobby that was opened to the public but is actually a custom lobby.... those bastards).

***I wanna point out that I was saying most people didn't seem to like 2 vs. 2 VIP, but it's popping up constantly. People seem to like the larger VIP modes; I love 3 vs. 3 VIP, and 4 vs. 4 would be wicked cool as well, but we've got to address scoring.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Richard LeMoon on May 24, 2016, 07:25:26 pm
We had a talk about Rabbits (runner/hider VIPs) and what to do about them if it became a large problem. It seems that it can be abused (as expected), but is it worth putting in extra mechanics to prevent the practice of a boring win? What percentage of VIPs will end up rabbiting?

Since VIP, to me, still seems like an arranged honor fight more than a chance encounter, there really should be more of a penalty from running away and hiding. Once again, using capture point mechanic may be feasible. If one team's VIP leaves the capture area (much larger than the current areas) for so long, they give the enemy a point. If both VIPs are MIA, no points are granted.

On the other hand, perhaps a VIP killing an escort might remove a kill rather than gaining a point. Though this would not prevent rabbiting, it would prevent unearned grind wins. Granting a point removal may be too much, though. Perhaps VIP would gain permahull for killing escorts. Once again removing the grind win. The only sure way to prevent rabbits and grind wins would be to make only VIP on VIP kills count, though that sounds a bit miserable to play.

And most certainly remove 2v2 except as a custom lobby option.

Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: KitKatKitty on May 24, 2016, 07:55:42 pm
Quote from: Zanc on May 24, 2016, 06:32:56 pm
For those who've tried it - does anyone else think that when the VIP kills an escort, they should score 1 point?

The initial VIP that we created had rules to try to prevent rabbiting, the Sweep Win. Granted, having 2 ways of winning like this was would be a nightmare to create and is understandably why there is a simpler version Muse went with. But having some way to include escorts kills or buff VIP for killing would decrease rabbiting.

Quote from: KitKatKitty on March 26, 2015, 10:02:11 pm
- 2 ways to win: 1) 4 Kills on the enemies VIP ship
                         OR
                           2) Sweep Win: The VIP ship kills the enemy VIP two times and the other 2 ships - one time each. Making a total of 4 kills.

However, rabbiting can not be completely eliminated. Some people will want to hide and no amount of game mechanics will prevent that. Just like in Death Match, some people just like to run and/or hide. There was quite a bit of discussion on different ways to reduce rabbiting or changes to the Muse VIP found HERE (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,7628.0.html) and HERE (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,7629.msg128295.html#msg128295).

For the majority, I am pleased with this patch and the way they implemented VIP. I agree with Richard on this:
Quote from: Richard LeMoon on May 24, 2016, 07:25:26 pm
And most certainly remove 2v2 except as a custom lobby option.
This is something I've recommended a few times...2v2 VIP just doesn't really work well and is why we never would host a 2v2 VIP lobby when hosting these event.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Dementio on May 24, 2016, 09:34:03 pm
Quote from: Richard LeMoon on May 24, 2016, 07:25:26 pm
What percentage of VIPs will end up rabbiting?

I can't talk for others, but for me the current percentage is 100% of my enemies as of now, but I didn't play that many VIP games yet. The only way I managed to prevent them from doing that, is to send my own VIP ally Squid in to hunt them down while I suicide charge the non-vip ally to great effect.

I thought about something similar to what Atruejedi propeses. Dying should always give a penalty, even if it is a small one, and I say that because Muse introduced that train of thought into capture mode, therefore in every other gamemode you don't want to suicide. The VIP is the golden snitch, but non-vip kills should still give a reward somehow, you killed them after all.

I also like the idea of forcing the VIP into certain areas or into one large area through some capture point mechanic, so it can't run into every corner of the map to escape, which may actually promote more Hwachas. And a Squid doesn't really need to run that far away in order to survive...
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Richard LeMoon on May 24, 2016, 10:18:27 pm
Other ally?

Sounds like you were playing 2v2, which does not work for VIP at all and should be removed as soon as possible.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Kadetti Lola Ellpuu on May 25, 2016, 03:47:16 am
I agree that 2v2 VIP would be only available through a custom lobby, the gamemode is fun as a 3v3, but is rather annoying as a 2v2.

The HUD changes seem unnecessary to me, again some stuff is increased in size so much it looks kinda weird. Instead of that you should maybe look at the chat and its scalling across resolutions (I don't think there's any atm) as it can get totally unreadable using lower resolutions.
(http://imgur.com/XKO31tV friend's old screenshot I used here before, try reading chat)

Good job on the tutorials, they were long overdue. They still can see some improvement as was mentioned in this thread.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Daft Loon on May 25, 2016, 04:34:52 am
In game voice chat icons/indicators seem to be missing in some cases.

Captain could see them for all of us but as crew we could only see the indicator for our own voice chat (myself and another crew member) even when the captain was clearly speaking.

When visible the new voice chat indicator looks better to me than the old one.


A possibility to allow proactive balancing via team swapping - Allow swapping onto any team rated as underdog, preferably directly and with a yes/no confirmation to avoid mistakes (clicking on a player just as they leave etc) since it would leave you unable to swap back.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Schwalbe on May 25, 2016, 06:07:23 am
Voice chat indicators seem to be missing when you are not the one using the chat.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Daft Loon on May 27, 2016, 04:18:16 am
I've been seeing a small mark above opposing ships, like the top half of the new pilots mark + four dots. I'm guessing its showing the co-captain's mark with the dots representing which co-captain (left to right dots = top to bottom lobby/scoreboard position).
Can anyone confirm this/ any more details of how it works, I've yet to see it on an unspotted target but it is rather small and easy to miss.
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: The Mann on May 27, 2016, 04:36:14 am
Yes, for example,

When we fought together earlier, You marked the Spire and it showed me the four dots (The second was filled suggesting second ship spotted it. (You was the lower blue ship) )
Title: Re: Version 1.4.6 Release Notes
Post by: Solidusbucket on May 27, 2016, 07:25:15 am
its great on 4v4 to see a ship with 3dots filled. it represents which captains have captain marked it. makes it easier to focus targets.