Guns Of Icarus Online
Community => Community Events => Topic started by: Moriarty on April 28, 2013, 08:58:16 am
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This is going to sound critical, so keep in mind I'm not intending to give offense.
This idea automatically enters 80+ people into what is likely to be a 5hour event. Which is a thing I'm not sure i want to go through again, especially if its forced on me without the courtesy of consultation - and the secrecy regarding rules is a bit of a cherry on top in this regard.
Needless to say i see a people management problems with this approach.
However to help discussion and add something constructive i would propose that if and when these problems occur you might like to consider a classic 2v5 3v4 winner face each other to see who plays the minor premier (fairly standard, and has the advantage of only being one match longer then a normal cogs week).
Or any other system really - Leave the tournament as a separate thing.
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yeah, I do agree with Moriarty. Less people are going to be able to show up to such an event. Most clans have troubles getting people to commit a couple hours on a saturday, let alone this much. I don't think you should change the rules of the Cogs mid-season. The Cogs were never ment to be the only event. If you want a final tournament blow out celebration, it should be scheduled as a different event.
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especially if its forced on me without the courtesy of consultation
I just think that part especially is what gets people a little bit. There's no shame in asking the players and captains about wether or not they agree with format changes;- after all they're the ones participating and without players you have no event.
Trying to bring variety and a change of pace is good and most will likely applaud that effort;- it's just the tone of it in which people are presented with changes forced upon them without room to leave feedback prior to changes to figure out wether or not everyone is on the same page.
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agree with moriarty and chango
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I agree with zitrus:)
Our team is having organization problems even now, on normal Cogs, and such big tournament isn't possible for us now.
Current Cogs are nice in case of it's shortness - anyone can play, having any amount of free time.
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This idea would work, if GoIO's community is something like Dota's community: with pro teams, which can spend all those time on game. Now we haven't such community, so big tournament just can't happen.
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We all have time to find players available and form or reorganize our teams.
If you cant make it that is just bad luck.
If you want a tournament that you can control all the details of, make one.
please, I want a ton more events.
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We all have time to find players available and form or reorganize our teams.
If you cant make it that is just bad luck.
If you want a tournament that you can control all the details of, make one.
please, I want a ton more events.
Salute
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We all have time to find players available and form or reorganize our teams.
If you cant make it that is just bad luck.
If you want a tournament that you can control all the details of, make one.
please, I want a ton more events.
You are aware that boils down to "too bad, go away" right? That's a completely unacceptable attitude for what's supposed to be a friendly community event. Not everyone can easily form teams, not everyone is instantly recognizable in the community and can form their own cults if they so desire. There shouldn't be this active effort to dick with people who are struggling to keep up as it is. Believe it or not, those complaining aren't doing so just to ruin your fun, there's a serious downside to splitting the incredibly small competitive community into different tournaments, we WANT the Cogs to be the big event of GoI. It truly is not terrible for the Cogs to be a bit more accommodating if that means it's not turning away people who want to participate.
I'm fairly confident Qwerty and Swallow aren't thinking this stuff up just to whittle down the participants to the true poopsockers, but there does need to be more thought put into big stuff like this and their impact on those participating. These games should be for those playing first and foremost, the spectators and the channel views are a nice bonus but they should not come at the cost of pissing off the players. Just ask for input on this stuff, it's so damn hard to get a small team together as it is without having to deal with big changes on short notice.
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I actually think Swallow legitimately put a lot of thought in this and I do see some merit to his idea.
That being said I believe the Paddling to be a relatively organised team and even we would likely have some trouble getting organised for such a large event in such a short period of time.
I really like the idea of having another tournament, but I think one of the things that made the last one so very successful was that it was announced well over a month in advance.
Hopefully Swallow understands this to be constructive criticism meant not to disparage his significant efforts but rather to build upon the great work he and Qwerty have already done.
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We all have time to find players available and form or reorganize our teams.
If you cant make it that is just bad luck.
If you want a tournament that you can control all the details of, make one.
please, I want a ton more events.
You are aware that boils down to "too bad, go away" right? That's a completely unacceptable attitude for what's supposed to be a friendly community event. Not everyone can easily form teams, not everyone is instantly recognizable in the community and can form their own cults if they so desire. There shouldn't be this active effort to dick with people who are struggling to keep up as it is. Believe it or not, those complaining aren't doing so just to ruin your fun, there's a serious downside to splitting the incredibly small competitive community into different tournaments, we WANT the Cogs to be the big event of GoI. It truly is not terrible for the Cogs to be a bit more accommodating if that means it's not turning away people who want to participate.
I'm fairly confident Qwerty and Swallow aren't thinking this stuff up just to whittle down the participants to the true poopsockers, but there does need to be more thought put into big stuff like this and their impact on those participating. These games should be for those playing first and foremost, the spectators and the channel views are a nice bonus but they should not come at the cost of pissing off the players. Just ask for input on this stuff, it's so damn hard to get a small team together as it is without having to deal with big changes on short notice.
I say these things knowing the effort that goes into putting on events, and knowing that there is a lot of work and thought put into cogs.
There is no effort to dick with anyone. CoGs is not and cannot be for everyone. It's for team players who have put in the effort or had someone else put in the effort for them to form a team, practice, and show up
Take my personal cogs story for example:
When Cogs started I saw that I was not going to be able to play, I didn't know anyone personally in the game and had not made any name for myself yet. I started by trying to form my own clan, and started working on an everyone can join tournament called sky kinds. Both failed.
After crewing Smollets ship in normal games and having a great time he asked me if I wanted to be a duck.
Maybe a week and a half before the Raft played their first game I tried out for one of the 2 captain spots. I lost to Ccrack and ended up as the gunner for Hizumi. later because so many Ducks wanted to play in cogs I earned a captain spot on the 3rd ducks team, the Brood.
Even though the Brood has only played 2 matches, something like 17 different players have been on the Brood.
player sometimes can't make a game, some disappear, some stop playing GOI, some move on to captain their own teams, some come and fill in for one game.
You recruit when you sign up, and you recruit be for every single game. Thats just how it is.
I am in CoGs because of Squashes effort, Smollets effort, My effort, My various crew and teammate's effort, and all the people who put on the cog's effort.
IT TAKES A LOT OF EFFORT TO BE IN COGS.
If you don't like these facts about cogs make your own event. Seriously I want more events! I myself have spent over 30 hrs trying to get non cogs events going.
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This has a potential to become an all-day event. For many who don't fall in the 'all-day' time zones, this is grueling. 3am through 8 or 9am is rough. We can't all donate our entire Saturdays (Sundays here) to this game or event. "Shut up or piss off" marginalizes and alienates the community. I think all the criticism here is constructive and should be listened to--how can you host a major event for a wirldwide playerbase without people bringing up issues they have with its construction. Telling people you're taking your ball and going home because you think they're pussing out and not committed enough is ludicrous. And since you've spent 30 hours working on an event and the issue for many is being able to commit that much time to a video game, I think you can see telling people to go make their own event is illogical.
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*Off subject 1 min*
Seriously I want more events! I myself have spent over 30 hrs trying to get non cogs events going.
Yes I want to see about setting up squid racing in the Labyrinth... that'd be fun as all get out
*Back on subject*
I agree with Machiavelliest here. We do not want to alienate some of the greatest members of our community with this. I enjoy fighting in the cogs, and I do not want it to stop. Now the issue I have with the current line of discussion, is there there is no one suggesting what we do to fix the issue, except for Moriarty. Truth is, there are a lot of people who would like to see a tournament style close to the cogs. This is a bit short notice I agree, but what can we do to help alleviate this. Maybe we don't do this over the span of 1 day, but 1 week (Or the equivalent of Sats).... That way we can better accommodate peoples schedules somewhat.
So let me open the floor to you. Who has ideas to make the end tourney work?
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Extend the season (this season) and begin the tournament prior to the season, playing the tournament matches that don't involve current COGs match teams concurrently. Yes, that means early tourney matches will be played at the same time as the COGs. That's the NCAA and every other sports television network's solution.
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Extend the season (this season) and begin the tournament prior to the season, playing the tournament matches that don't involve current COGs match teams concurrently. Yes, that means early tourney matches will be played at the same time as the COGs. That's the NCAA and every other sports television network's solution.
I'm sure there is value in this suggestion, but i don't understand.
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I'm sure there is value in this suggestion, but i don't understand.
Don't end the season now. Tack on an extra weekend or two, and let the 'Season Ender' tournament play out over those weekends, with the non-COGs match bouts of the Tournament playing at the same time as the extra COGs matches.
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Playing out the tournament over a series of weeks would definitely mitigate the -how the hell do I mobilize my team for 5 hours- problem and if I understand Machiavelliest correctly, many of these round one games could take place during week 7 of the Cogs for the teams who aren't already playing that week.
If the tournament matches were scheduled into rough time slots, this could really help increase the ease of participation for a lot of teams.
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interesting, wouldn't this be even more short notice if we started it week 7 though? We might have to make special provision this season (Extend the season a bit) and then start up proper Season 2. This is, of course, if Swallow wants to run it this way.
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If your going to be adding on time to the event then keep it between 2-3hrs or less. Stick in at least 1-2 intermission periods as well. Basically how I've done it with raiding and Ops running for years. Gets the maximum amount of time in and protects against burn out. Any longer and your deathmarching it. Course thats an MMO and this is aircombat. But either way the biggest hurdle is that time frame because this community is so spread out among the time zones. No matter what time you pick, it won't make everyone happy. So it then comes down to just minimizing that impact as much as possible. Some crews will get hit harder than others, that is just how it goes. If some have to rotate people then they'll have to do that. I actually wouldn't mind having that option cause we got folks who can't make the current time but could if it was an hour later.
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interesting, wouldn't this be even more short notice if we started it week 7 though? We might have to make special provision this season (Extend the season a bit) and then start up proper Season 2. This is, of course, if Swallow wants to run it this way.
Yep. The question is whether or not the shorter notice is easier to handle than the 'deathmarch' of time consumption. We could just close the season without a tourney, then use a tournament to reestablish the COG structure.
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Yep. The question is whether or not the shorter notice is easier to handle than the 'deathmarch' of time consumption. We could just close the season without a tourney, then use a tournament to reestablish the COG structure.
I think that may be a better solution, if only because it gives us some breathing room for a back and forth with OE on scheduling the games. Fight for the seeds over a couple weeks, Cogs as normal. I don't think we should settle on that just yet, though, it sounds like it'd be a pain in the ass to organize when you know a lot of those early games are going to end up as no-shows.
I say these things knowing the effort that goes into putting on events, and knowing that there is a lot of work and thought put into cogs.
As do I. I've organized stuff like this before, it does take a lot of effort. Thing is, OE is getting stupid amounts of channel views in large part because of their efforts organizing this. They're the official broadcasters of Guns of Icarus, backed by Muse. It's not like they've been unrewarded or they're downtrodden, they can take criticism and they ask for criticism. Just because they work hard doesn't mean it's not a bad idea to suddenly announce everyone involved is supposed to do something they weren't planning for for hours on end. They've been kind of announcing how things are going to be without asking for input from the participants and that's just not going to work in the long run.
Again, the Cogs isn't entirely a gift from OE to the GoI players, the participants are very much responsible for a lot of OE's recent success and they very much deserve a say in how things are done. No one wants to see the Cogs failing because everyone's switching to another tournament that's a bit more player-friendly.
There is no effort to dick with anyone. CoGs is not and cannot be for everyone. It's for team players who have put in the effort or had someone else put in the effort for them to form a team, practice, and show up
Take my personal cogs story for example:
When Cogs started I saw that I was not going to be able to play, I didn't know anyone personally in the game and had not made any name for myself yet. I started by trying to form my own clan, and started working on an everyone can join tournament called sky kinds. Both failed.
After crewing Smollets ship in normal games and having a great time he asked me if I wanted to be a duck.
Maybe a week and a half before the Raft played their first game I tried out for one of the 2 captain spots. I lost to Ccrack and ended up as the gunner for Hizumi. later because so many Ducks wanted to play in cogs I earned a captain spot on the 3rd ducks team, the Brood.
Even though the Brood has only played 2 matches, something like 17 different players have been on the Brood.
player sometimes can't make a game, some disappear, some stop playing GOI, some move on to captain their own teams, some come and fill in for one game.
You recruit when you sign up, and you recruit be for every single game. Thats just how it is.
I am in CoGs because of Squashes effort, Smollets effort, My effort, My various crew and teammate's effort, and all the people who put on the cog's effort.
IT TAKES A LOT OF EFFORT TO BE IN COGS.
Congratulations. I don't see people lining up to watch players organize, they're there to watch the games themselves. Demanding that everyone have your same dedication is absolutely ridiculous, that's not what the Cogs should be about. This is not a professional league where people earn money, there shouldn't be an expectation that the participants go through undue stress just to compete. The organizers taking a bit of time to consider the difficulty of scheduling for the teams is well worth whatever perceived drop in quality there is for the spectators, it's not that hard to just ask beforehand before declaring that this is what's going to happen and that's final.
Just about everyone here understands that just by the nature of having teams there's going to be unavoidable difficulties, it sucks but no one can really come up with a way to make team organization easy. But that's completely different from romanticizing it as an ideal, like that's how it should be. It's fine to have a bit of pride about your own dedication but I'm going to be blunt, the less that kind of hard work is rewarded the better. We should be making every effort to make participation as easy as possible, to take down as many boundaries to competing as is practical so that victories are less effected by anything other than skill.
It's just not fun watching a team like Corvus forfeiting a match because they got fucked by a surprise, people don't watch the Cogs to watch the participants stress out over scheduling. That makes the game stop being fun, and when the Cogs stop being fun they're going to die.
If you don't like these facts about cogs make your own event. Seriously I want more events! I myself have spent over 30 hrs trying to get non cogs events going.
Teams are already feeling stressed out just by the current Cogs. There's no way the Cogs could survive another similar league, a lot of people would be playing in one or the other. It's really damn rare to have the time to participate in multiple simultaneous leagues, particularly if they're both as demanding as the Cogs. Not to mention the nightmare of scheduling conflicts between the two, the Cogs have a pretty good time on Saturday and you bet any serious league is going to want those hours too. A lot of people like myself want to compete in THE league, we want the spotlight on the bigass Twitch channel. Picking up our toys and going elsewhere is more of a last ditch effort should all else fail, which it won't as I'm sure Qwerty and Swallow are going to take this thread seriously.
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I've got to agree about splitting the tournament up. I can't spend five hours on a Saturday playing GoIO. I mean, Fjords was 5 hours long, and my team probably played an hour in total. And we were in the bronze game. Sitting around doing little to nothing for four hours is not what I enjoy doing, and it's a scheduling nightmare.
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There's a lot of back-and-forth between participants in the COGs here, and I feel confident in saying I speak for others posting here accurately in saying that, while this is an important issue to us and that is why we are criticizing it so heavily, we really do appreciate the time, work, and consideration put into the COGs by the people who make the machine well-oiled and firing on all pistons behind the scenes. "No news is good news" is a poor method of communication, but please don't think that just because we're hung up on this (albeit important) issue, we're renouncing or denouncing the hard work of the COGs organizers.
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Quick heads up: The five-hour stream of Fjords nearly killed Qwerty and me, and we had half a dozen CAs to support us that time.
The finale is not going to last five hours.
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Thanks for the helpful comment swallow...
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RUMORS CRUSHED
Thanks
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The answer to 5 hour battles...every 30 mins run a Pyralition Derby event channel. Well, once the update hits and make ramming godlike.
Actually wanted to test this but never had a chance. Load up 3 on 3 DM...all Pyras and probably a map with a large circle open area like Dunes. Pilot loadouts would be moonshine with 2 other optionals. No impact bumpers (unless everyone goes it), tar permitted for realism sake. Crews set to repair so no guns. Then everyone position in a circle facing each other...after countdown all hit the shine and collide at once. Pyras which try to run away from the circle area are disqualified. It is then a race to repair and rebuild and recharge in before enemies do the same. Pyras which get blown up can rejoin the brawl. Teams smash it out until one side wins.
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I wouldn't call backfiring engines that disable opponents' vehicles realism ... like the idea though. Jace has a thread for these ideas, I think.
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How long are you expecting Week 8 to last? I need to be somewhere at 6 PM EST, so it'd be good to know if I can be around for the whole thing.
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Was pretty long today but no one could have really known we'd have that large of a hit to the servers. Matches were fine till our match with Destruct. Both sides got hit with heavy slow down. I was bumping into walls that I usually zip right by. Suspect part was cause of spectators, which I have only ever seen that pose an issue in 4v4. It was weird seeing that in 2v2. I gave a call out that we could barely move hoping qwerty and swallow would realize what was happening and suddenly it improved a little so I guess they saw it and shifted spectator spot. But a lot I think was just the servers getting slammed hard by the high population.
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Where's the Week 8 recording!?!?! D:
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I missed all of the matches except my own. How did they go?
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Where's the Week 8 recording!?!?! D:
http://www.twitch.tv/qwerty2jam/b/402287974 Hasn't been partitioned yet, my video will come out this week.
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How did all the games (other than mine) end up? Who won?
I can't check the recordings right now because of the smartphone industry's infuriating ditching of Flash.
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**SPOILERS**
W-L
BROOD-BFS: 5-4 Really close
BFS-D-TOID: 5-3 D-Toid didn't do too bad, for a rag tag band of misfits, squid had a lot to do with their getting of so many kills. :P
BROOD-D-TOID: 5-0 D-toid got rolled.
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Wow, congrats to the Brood. Looks like they've benefitted a lot from getting a more stable second crew from what was the Dover.
I love that BFS runs a Squid, but it's only really worked against Muse so far. 5-3 against DToid? Not so good :/
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Where's the Week 8 recording!?!?! D:
http://www.twitch.tv/qwerty2jam/b/402287974 Hasn't been partitioned yet, my video will come out this week.
Thanks Papa!
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Destructoid made a really good effort today. I hope they stick around.
Also, congratulations to all winners. It was well fought, and well deserved. To the others, you made a fucking good show, there really wasn't much that separated the teams today. From what I saw, almost all the matches could have gone either way - they were all so close, exciting and intense. Everyone left everything in 'the field' so to speak. Should all be proud.
See you next week!
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I love that BFS runs a Squid, but it's only really worked against Muse so far. 5-3 against DToid? Not so good :/
Muse it had good firing angle but it was a mess due to the patch, you didn't see it's full potential. Polaris it was plagued by lag so bad it could hardly move or react. This week it wasn't lag so much as it was slo-mo mode. Destructoid commented on the problem too and after the match it had clearly been a deciding factor in the outcome of the match for both sides. We were both afflicted with it. If you watch the match you can see the Squid is moving at like a quarter or a half it's speed. That forced us to fight defensively when we would normally dominate on Canyon. I didn't take Squid out because I expected an easy win, or that I underestimated their threat. I took Squid out because it was Canyon Ambush and I intended to show no quarter. They'd be coming at us all out, so I wouldn't gimp myself by going a slower ship just because they were the new team.
I gotta give props to Destructoid for holding in there so well because with that much slowdown that we were all getting I can imagine how painful it was to turn that Pyra. I've been there and seen it on 4v4, it is not pretty. Heck if I didn't know better I'd have sworn we were in a 4v4 Canyon or something with a couple Galleons.
The Squid will be back...the problems with it have all been on Muse's end. Fly with me when its not a mess like this and you'll swear its a totally different ship. I have been able to get around the hell Muse did to Hydro but its still about 90% as effective as it used to be. Heck I've had Pyras with kerosene keeping pace with me with kerosene...going backwards...that is how bad Muse screwed things up! Fastest ship my butt! Before it took them kerosene just to catch me at normal speed in a similar engagement. I know cause I used to duel Pyras often. 1.2 is probably the worst patch I've seen since I got the game. I'm still pissed about Hydro and I still want a proper explanation for the balloon hp nerf. Muse says it isn't but the numbers don't add up. Eventually it will sort out and Muse will realize the massive error of their ways...till then...sigh.
I decided against it for Duel this time because it was the first match and I was not confident Muse had fixed all the issues. Specially not with such a heavy crowd. We ran some practice together before whereas last time we hadn't. The server situation was a deciding factor and it sucks that we're at the mercy of it. Might as well have just played on the test server. I was originally going to go in with a Pyra before the servers went down. Galleon was a last second change based on the server problems. Figured if something would go wrong, the chances of recovering with a giant turret would be better than a Pyra.
Btw...Shinryaku! means "invade". It is part of squid girl but the word itself means invade. The Japan players have liked it a lot so the name stuck. Although I switch it now with Black Maria just because that one goes with the name of the group.
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Fly with me when its not a mess like this and you'll swear its a totally different ship.
As a side note, I really want to crew on your Squid in a pub match at some point. Squid engineering is the best, especially when your pilot is amazing at flying it.
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I was having no server issues in the game against bfs. Not sure what you are talking about gilder. Server ran fine.
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He wasn't talking about our game against you guys as regards the slo-mo issue. He was talking about our game with Destructoid. That game was running in slo-mo for all of us.
I think what Gilder's saying is that he chose the safest ship for our match with The Brood because it would be least effected in the event of lag or slo-mo, which was a distinct possibility given the lobby lag and the general instability of the server that night. I think the actual match ran ok for everyone though.
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Watching a replay of my match, I think you might want to do more research about some of the teams, Swallow :P The Raft is known for being aggressive, conversely to what you said, and we definitely are not associated with the 3-engineer setup. We ran a gunner on both ships in every Cogs match prior to yesterday. You were probably thinking more of The Paddling.
Of course, you're probably thinking "they're all Ducks, it's the same thing" :P