Guns Of Icarus Online

Info => News and Announcements => Release Notes => Topic started by: Keyvias on March 18, 2016, 05:04:46 pm

Title: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Keyvias on March 18, 2016, 05:04:46 pm
Balance Changes

Mobula
-Outer top guns fanned out 5 degrees
-Inner bottom guns fanned out 10 degrees

Spire
-Reduced turn acceleration to 10d/s2 (from 15)
-Reduced top turn speed to 10d/s from 12

Squid
-Back gun turned inwards (towards right side of ship) 40 degrees (from 0)
-Increased forward/backward acceleration to 8m/s2 (from 6.66)

Heavy Flak
-Damage moved to direct hit for a 70/30% split between direct and AoE (from 45/55%)
-Higher clip capacity to 4 (from 2)
-Damage per shot reduced (115/50 explosive, from 150/180 explosive)
-Increased RoF of 2 shots/s (from 0.8 )
-Reduced reload time of 4.5s (from 5)
-Reduced camera shake

Lochnagar Shot
-Reduced clip size reduction to -50% (from reduction to 1 shot)
-Reduced rotation speed reduction to -80% (from -90%)
-Changed damage-to-gun model so that is deals proportional damage per shot until gun is destroyed (e.g. if gun has 2 shots then each shot deals 50% damage vs a gun that has 4 shots were each shot deals 25% damage)
-Changed to -60% (from 100%)

Hwacha
-Reduced projectile speed to 250m/s from 400m/s
-Decreased camera shake

Harpoon
-Added right click and hold to reel in
-Increased harpoon force to 1,500,000 (from 230,000)

Pyramidon
-Hull health increased to 700 (from 550)
-Ship mass increased to 300000 (from 200000)
-Ship propulsion increased from 283500 to 675100
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dementio on March 18, 2016, 05:32:59 pm
Sarcastic hooray. Who didn't want the Squid to get another buff, with its monstrous hull value, while the Spire gets nerfed? And the indirect nerf to Mine Launcher, Heavy Carronade, Lumberjack...

And the Pyramidion is still not viable with its literal lack of mobility in any direction.

At least the Hwacha got nerfed.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Atruejedi on March 18, 2016, 05:40:55 pm
And the Pyramidion is still not viable with its literal lack of mobility in any direction.

I feel like the Pyramidion just went from underpowered to overpowered. Wow. All three of those changes were NOT in the dev app testing sessions... and if they were they weren't published in the notes... but now they're in-game. The Pyra was broken when three changes were made to it as nerfs when it probably only needed two. Now we have three changes made again... and it might be too much of a buff. Am I to assume propulsion equals acceleration? Did it just get a 2.5x acceleration buff? Wow! I'll have to test it out to see how it functions now... but coupled with the increased mass and hull, we may have just entered the Age of Ramming™.

Spire was the only ship never flown in Cronus League finals. Spire gets nerfed. Why? Seriously. I don't understand the logic behind this. Increase its armor or hull to compensate. Make it a floating turret. See my thread "Defining Roles for Each Ship - A Return to Our Roots" here:

https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,7462.0.html

I see Muse included the Mobula changes, which is now Junker 2.0. All fun builds broken and the real problem is not solved. Sigh... this just forces Mobula to take Mercury/Hades on top and Artemis on the wings... LIKE IT ALWAYS WAS!

Heavy flak sounds awesome. Lochnager changes are confusing and need some real-game examples provided.

Hwacha changes were NOT in the dev app testing sessions last week... yet suddenly enter the game again (after being featured the week prior). Could be a good change, though. We'll see. The mid-range dominance might be over, which is great!

Harpoon feels great now, but definitely needs a function to auto-reel so another gun can be mounted. Or needs to stick in the enemy for the entire duration of the reload. But a giant stride in the right direction.

Overall... I rate this patch 5/10. Some great changes, some awful changes, and some things that still need work.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: BlackenedPies on March 18, 2016, 05:41:45 pm
bye
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Letus on March 18, 2016, 06:07:50 pm


Heavy flak sounds awesome. Lochnager changes are confusing and need some real-game examples provided.


Well, it still has it's 125% damage

Every gun that fires it that has 1 shot (say Heavy Carronade, mine launcher, and merc field cannon) Blows up on that one shot.
All the other guns take damage over time equivilant to rounds in the gun: Example: Hwatcha has 10 rounds, so 10% self-gun damage per round.

Damage remains the same, just...you're gonna break your gun (which will only be a nerf to Blenderfish, but that's easy to work around...)

I never loched a Lumberjack, but now I probably might include it, 'cause you only need one shot to do good balloon damage :V

Squid....eh...Greased rounds and gun stamina can get your basic carronade + flamer + mine launcher a trifecta...which for a disabler build...adds more insult to injury.

Flack...Why does flack have AoE Arming time now?  The reason why it had the AoE Arming time was because the AoE was bloody strong.  With the strong punch in Direct...an entire clip of just burst rounds can deal 575 Explosive damage, which, yes, against armour is not much...but now you can just willy-nilly shoot flaks without thought.

Might just see Gat Hwatcha Flak galleons now.


Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: DrTentacles on March 18, 2016, 06:10:40 pm
Haahahahahaha.

Oh. Wait. You're serious.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Kadetti Lola Ellpuu on March 18, 2016, 06:28:12 pm
This is ridiculous. Introducing changes without testing. Almost completely ignoring the feedback you got. Why did we players even bother with the testing. Feel free to ruin the game more in the next patch as well...
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: MightyKeb on March 18, 2016, 06:43:34 pm
To clarify, "Thrust" is an attribute that is not shown in the ship statistics directly, however, changes in mass directly affect it. So pyra's mass increasing meant less thrust, meant less manouverability in general, however, they've increased thrust instead to comepnsate for this. So now pyra's a better rammer with 700 hull, no changes in accel.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Keyvias on March 18, 2016, 06:58:36 pm
Hey guys,

Just wanted to comment on a few things.

First and foremost, this is something we're constantly monitoring and are going to be very active on. There was definitely a lot of time between the last balance patch and this one. We'll be releasing the final plans for that communication later. As I hinted on during the fireside stream even a player "elected balance president" to be the singular voice was brought up (and shot down, have no fear.) To help us cut through noise and provide better two way communication. We have a couple plans we're working on and will be introducing to try and make that communication path better.

These decisions mark a new starting point for us to look at in player feedback, win rate, and personal experience. These are not the final point, these changes are large and I have no doubt outlying cases will arise, but tell us the second you feel them. Tell us when the squid was untouchable to the goldfish or the flakfish has taken over every single game you play (just random examples)

Second, a big shout out to many people who tested and gave us feedback, Atruejedi, in particular, I know you may disagree with some changes, but you stuck with us through 3 weeks of testing and never failed to give us very specific feedback (which is a major reason many of these changes were scaled back.) It's definitely easy to say "screw you, muse," but it takes a lot of effort to explain where we screwed up and we truly appreciate it. I hope you test these changes in live and let us know if we pushed it in the right direction or if we need to go back to the drawing board.

For the pyra changes. They've been in for weeks, but they've been under a slightly different name.
-------------
Pyramidon hull health increased to 700 (from 550), mass increased to 300000 from 200000 while preserving all other steering characteristics.
-----------
Because we increased the mass the propulsion had to be increased. It moves no faster or slower than before.
I will take full blame for the change in language. The pyra was getting a lot of hate despite the buff and I thought releasing the full stats and having players do the numbers would make it go over better. It did get called overpowered so I guess the language achieved that goal, but it made you guys feel like something went in that wasn't tested and for that I apologize. I promise 100% tested that was definitely in.

On the mobula, those are the numbers after being reigned in after Saturday's test which you guys are 100% right didn't go over greatly. We have hopes that some other changes should make this ship play out differently in-game, but we'll be happy to eat our words if that's not the case.

On the spire, players have already suggested new flak will make it overpowered as all get out, some people say it's a terrible ship. It does have a definitely weakness to hades especially. We have some plans if the changes we made don't change team compositions. (side note, highest ship winrate in the game before this patch.)

For Hwacha, the changes have been in the trunk and we thought we felt them while testing. The data looks like it was, I double checked to make sure, we even got some feedback on it. I don't know where the miscommunication happened on it, but I deeply apologize. We'll keep a close eye on it.

Maybe we aced this patch, maybe we 5/10'ed it, or maybe we bombed it completely. Please let us know how it plays on production.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Solidusbucket on March 18, 2016, 07:13:39 pm
Have fun trying to flank the Mobula.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dev Bubbles on March 18, 2016, 07:19:45 pm
Just wanted to make a quick point about testing.  We have been testing the balance changes for 4 weeks now, each time with a team review of ALL the feedback that was submitted to us post each round of testing.  And the pyra changes have been in dev app before release.  We'll of course try to do better with outreach, but we have limited means of reaching everyone during testing, so we are limited in that sense.  Thanks, Howard
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: KeijoPertti on March 18, 2016, 07:33:35 pm
No wonder Lochnagar changed name.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: HelFyre on March 18, 2016, 07:54:38 pm
We have been testing the balance changes for 4 weeks now, each time with a team review of ALL the feedback that was submitted to us post each round of testing.

There are two issues with this finally being implemented for me:

Firstly, the patch was included even though there was a general bad feeling about the current changes. I appreciate that the patch needs to be introduced at some point, and that it's acceptable for people to be discontent, however I don't feel like it was time for finalisation.

Secondly, there should ideally be a report given for each change, how the feedback was analysed, and the processes which led to the evolution of new changes. This should not seem like a superfluous task, providing feedback to our feedback is extremely important in keeping us motivated and focused on the effects of the changes being tested, and gives guidance on what should be tested, and shows your understanding of the game, as those who ultimately have control over the balance.
I didn't feel like my own feedback would have been recognised, no matter how detailed and elegantly I was present it, and I didn't want to simply pass on ideas, for fear that it would be lost in the noise of the other feedback.

If I had seen closer and more consistent interaction, I would have gladly placed more faith and effort into working on this and helping improve the game using my knowledge and experience of the game, in its current state especially: which I imagine to be useful given the care of my analysis and understanding of the competitive and public scene, game mechanics and most other things GoI related, a result of the time I've spent here of recent, the variety of people I've interacted with, and careful thought that had been given to this.

However having said this, I apologise sincerely for giving insufficient feedback via email as of yet regarding the balance patch.

PS: In the notes, there's no mention of the jitter change for lochnagar, which is found in the ingame description
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: GurasOguras on March 18, 2016, 07:58:20 pm
I don't mind, really. Why there is so much hate every single patch? Releasing any changes to skirmish mode is still better than leaving it completely without any attention. We gonna see how it goes. Maybe I'll play pyramidion a bit more often. The only thing I may not like is changing spire basing entirely on low level matches results, ant not giving it any, even slightest compensation to hull or something but at least you left lochnagar mines unchanged, so good job.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: DJ Logicalia on March 18, 2016, 08:15:24 pm
This update got me super salty. I'm honestly completely baffled that feedback was basically wholly ignored. The Pyra was nerfed in a way that basically everyone said was the wrong way. It's not too squishy, it's too slow. The mob was nerfed in the most frustrating way, making fun builds all but gone, leaving Hades/art still the best build. AND The Spire nerf. The Spire is my favorite ship. It's a challenge to use effectively, and it's already pretty weak. This nerf is totally unprecedented. And, added on top of all that, untested changes went in the official release, showing that community feedback is basically totally irrelevant 

I've resigned as a CA over this. I no longer feel like I can trust muse to appropriately listen to and respond to feedback. It's all the Hand of Balance running the show, sweeping feedback aside. These release notes are proof of this long help suspicion that I had.

Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Daft Loon on March 18, 2016, 08:32:31 pm
Missing from the lochnagar notes:
- -100% jitter changed to -60%

Given that the Minotaur now has 2 shots with loch at 405 armor damage a piece this is probably necessary given the other changes.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dementio on March 18, 2016, 08:35:34 pm
Wait what, what changes were untested? I haven't read a single thing that wasn't already in dev app before. Maybe some details about Flak and Lochnagar that I didn't bother memorizing, but everything else has been tested in one of those 3 weeks.

@Muse Why in the world would you think the Heavy Flak changes would make the Spire op? Why do I need an easily disabled heavy gun to kill a ship, when I can put a Hwacha on there that disables the enemy while killing them with a less easily disabled light gun that does twice the damage output (Mortar) or has an explosive damage type as well as shatter to disable enemy guns (Artemis)? Even if it does get OP on the Spire, has the thought occured that maybe the Flak needs to be looked at again, instead of nerfing the one ship that needed a buff even more than the Pyramidion and changing Lochnagar in a way that kills it for the few guns that actually had a use for it? The new Heavy Flak doesn't even work with the new Lochnagar! And the old one would probably still be worse then Burst Rounds.

I also feel like our feedback has not been looked into all that much. The values have basically been the same throughout 3 weeks and only around two things were actually changed in between weeks. Official testing is a nice thing to have, but it was damn redundant. Especially, because, on the dev app forum at least, I have not seen a single person that thought it was a good idea to buff the Squid, nerf the Spire and not buff the Pyramidion's speed in any way. Like, what? I imagine that the guys writing on the forum are the more active ones and actually write emails to feedback@muse as well, and unless they changed their opinion without stating so on the forum, to what degree was our feedback actually taken in? I personally see only one reflection from my feedback: The Mobula's bottom gun changes are back to 10 degrees instead of 15 from the last week of testing, and that's it? Everybody else thought "the other changes are perfectly fine, let's get going"? Three weeks worth of testing and barely anything got changed from the original values? That makes me believe Muse is playing a different game, with a blindfold while liquid happiness is pumped into their blood stream so they wouldn't notice how horrible some, not all, but some ideas are.

Pull that trick a second time, and you have to employ 16 more people to test the changes yourself. Nothing comes from it anyway. Even when I question some of Muse's decisions in terms of game balance and design choices, this effects me personally, because that was 3 weeks of waste.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Keyvias on March 18, 2016, 09:44:13 pm
@Untested changes
Definitely want to know which ones we missed. I'm pretty sure they were all caught and tested.

@Loch jitter
Fixed, good catch, copy paste error.

@Feedback
We get a crazy amount of conflicting data. Showing everything means people do what happens on the forums already which is someone points to another person saying it as proof that it is fact. We've tried showing numbers before and we were told "how dare we care about the numbers we should focus on what the players are saying."
Going through the data takes a lot of time already from sorting the data for every ship and gun usage to having meetings internally about decisions we've made. Putting out all the data and then having to defend the way we see that data is another step that doesn't earn us anything because there will be people that massively disagree with our interpretation.
You can believe that your feedback doesn't have any effect, but I name 11 changes specifically that would've been in this patch if not for feedback. Is that enough for you to keep testing? That's your decision. As I said I want to improve this communication because honestly the noise between good feedback and bad feedback is very hard to filter.
Do I think we listen to the right feedback perfectly? Of course not, but remove your own feedback from the mix read all the forum threads, then double that and add in people who aren't talking to each other and just on their thoughts. Who do you listen to?
I am not asking for slack or trying to make excuses. At the end of the day a decision has to be made on these things, we have to try to estimate the interactions between the changes to four ships, three guns and one ammo. Do I think we made the right choice? I am sure enough to try it in production, but it can be changed on the fly. If by tomorrow the spire is broken, unusable, and useless, we can change it. We can give it 400 more health, double how fast it moves up and down, make it the fastest ship in the game, or return it to how it was yesterday without closing down the servers for a second.
We want to be more active in balance, we want to finely hone this game, and we want to improve it.
And we're going to get it wrong.
We have before and that's going to happen, but we want to be quicker on fixing it. We want to find better ways to filter noise and get the right people saying the important things.

If we lost some of you for testing or some of you lost faith in Muse Games. I am sorry. Our purpose wasn't to annoy, frustrate, or ignore. It was trying to improve the game. We will keep trying and keep doing everything we can, including improving the testing communication and system.


Examples of data (for Spire)
Spire Winrate by all non-novice pilots: 58.38% +3.16% of the next highest (mobula), +7.88% of the ship average, and +10.24% of ship median.
Spire Winrate by all pilots over the level of 31: 71.52% +1.86% of the next highest (mobula), +4.32% of the ship average, and +5.65% of the ship median.

Examples of emails (for the arguments side not being said here)
"I just checked out dev app for changes and noticed Loch is now '-50% clip size' and back at '+125% damage'. This is a better solution than the ones I proposed! I think you guys are really close to having it right."
"Hwacha, It didn't feel like it wrecked the entire ship as often as usual. This is good."
"First off; Lochnegar viable on light guns? Finally. It's a much needed change"
" Turn decreases will definitely make it easier to dodge behind while brawling. Increasing armour slightly would be a nice change so it can at least survive a little while longer while flanked, especially with the Squid buffs."
"I was already a fan of using the rear pair of guns on the squid so i like the idea behind turning the rear gun sideways"
"You are one step away from making it (Pyra) a good ship"


@Changes made directly by feedback from players (number of changes we made over the weeks of testing so week 1 testing vs release)
-Gravity changes removed
-Hwacha autofire removed
-Mobula's arc changes scaled back
-Spires turning changes scaled back (was much higher)
-AI should not fire the harpoon
-Pyra mass increased
-Reduced screen shake
-Squid front gun arc put back in its proper place
-Squid rear gun moved slightly
-Lochnagar went from 65% back its normal 125%
-Hwacha got slower and almost lost range because of this, but was changed.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: GeoRmr on March 18, 2016, 10:19:10 pm
HE ACTUALLY DID IT THE ABSOLUTE MADMAN!

 8)

now lets just imagine how bad things would be if we didn't tell them anything
plz muse, stop trying to ruin your game - it's a pretty good one

lol nerf the weakest ship in the game
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Hoja Lateralus on March 18, 2016, 10:23:10 pm
First and foremost, this is something we're constantly monitoring and are going to be very active on. There was definitely a lot of time between the last balance patch and this one. We'll be releasing the final plans for that communication later. As I hinted on during the fireside stream even a player "elected balance president" to be the singular voice was brought up (and shot down, have no fear.) To help us cut through noise and provide better two way communication. We have a couple plans we're working on and will be introducing to try and make that communication path better.

Well, I don't know the details, but I don't understand. People are going to have different opinions about many matters. How are you planning to "fix" this? You can set your priorities or just prioritise based on your personal trust to the player and validity of his/hers argument.

These decisions mark a new starting point for us to look at in player feedback, win rate, and personal experience. These are not the final point, these changes are large and I have no doubt outlying cases will arise, but tell us the second you feel them. Tell us when the squid was untouchable to the goldfish or the flakfish has taken over every single game you play (just random examples)

So... this means you are just going to drop stuff into game and looks at stats (which may or not be of any relevance at all)? It feels like it.
This is pure theory, I have no data for it; but it feels like vets hop on to other ships, the viable ships, and you nerf them (because since vet play them, they gain more usage and winrate). You have nerfed pyramidion, usage and winrate dropped and now you've decided it's too low, so you buff it again. Squid may have low usage/winrate because it's a hard ship to use (and to crew!) so you buff it up to the point of riddiculousness. After some months new meta will form and for instance galleon will be buffed and squid nerfed.

Putting out all the data and then having to defend the way we see that data is another step that doesn't earn us anything because there will be people that massively disagree with our interpretation.

Doesn't earn you anything? This... this is extremely sad to hear. On the point of some people disagreeing you are denying any significance of community's opinion. As if the game isn't for people - the people are for the game. Many of us are not asking for all data, just some brief justification.

What are the reasons for individual ship balance changes? I don't understand, especially given negative feedback.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Daft Loon on March 18, 2016, 11:22:49 pm
For reasons unknown lochnagar gatling survives its clip by 1 shot worth of self damage
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Omniraptor on March 18, 2016, 11:38:26 pm
@Keyvias What I mean is a paragraph, just three or four sentences about which problems each change serves to fix. These can be posted in devapp, or on the main forum. Goio is a complex system of interlocking mechanics and as you say a lot of thought goes into each change. Surely three or four sentences of your balance reasoning is not too much to ask.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dementio on March 18, 2016, 11:44:11 pm
I want people to notice, just for a second, how the examples of positive feedback do not include positive remarks on the Spire nerf or the Squid's increase in horizontal movement and how the Pyramidion was not considered as great yet.

The handling of controversial feedback is alright, it did apparantly result in more than the total four changes I was expecting and slight changes are better than going all out breaking the game. But I am disappointed that no other stats were touched. With 3 weeks of testing, could you not test to see if maybe the speed buff for the Squid is not necessary after all? Or that the Spire could do with an increase of some other stats if you are dead set on nerfing its mobility?

Because the Muse argues the Spire nerf with numbers, I will argue against a nerf without even buffing anything else on the Spire, by explaining what these numbers mean in the most uncomprehending way I can think of that late during the night. Yes, all the next few paragraphs are relatively random Spire ramblings and irrelevant to my opinions stated above.

They are also a lot of factors regarding win rates. I imagine that people are aware of the fact that you can literally do anything in pubs and still win? That's becsuse people that are aware of that likely communicate with their crew, something that most pub matches don't have. If, say, you take a Spire with Hwacha, Gatling and literally any explosive gun, how do you think people in pub matches fair against that? When I started the game, I ran a Spire with Hwacha, Artemis, Mortar and a Carronade, the killstreak was almost unstoppable. Two years later, I took it again in the Iron Fork of Friday and it had no competition, you would expect people to be able to communicate in there and not get killed by an full explosive Spire. Or maybe they did communicate, but then what could lead to their easy to come-by death? It could be possible that it is the amount of guns of the Spire + Lion Gun OP that makes it possible, but now the Hwacha is nerfed and so is Lochnagar Mine Launcher, which served as effective ram defense for the Spire.

The Spire is supposed to be a glass cannon and the nerf reflects that rather well. But the nerf and some indirect other nerfs change that to a coin flip: It's either glass or cannon. The Spire wins, if it ambushes, if it gets the first shot on people, disables them or kills them outright with more firepower than any other ship in the game. If it couldn't do that quick enough, than the enemy could always easily outmanouver the Spire gun arcs, disables the Spire's heavy gun and everything else for that matter or just kill it first. The Spire doesn't have the armor to compete in any 1v1, you must literally risk your life in order to ensure a kill. And now it is nerfed to when you miss your once chance, there really isn't a second one, because of all the ways any enemy ship could kill you, turning around fast enough in order to shoot before dying, was the Spire's only saving grace, now it can't anymore, or at least shouldn't, because that one survival chance is literally what Muse intended to remove.
Even with the previous Heavy Flak the Spire could get ridiculously easy kills, and nobody called that nerf-worthy.

Also note that the win rates for the Spire are lower when flown by non-novice pilots. Non-novice does not necessarily mean experienced. Imagine your average lvl 15 or 20 pilot that flies Spire against other players on the same level, assuming matchmaking works, he will win these matches, because most of them likely are not that in-depth with the game combat. Their ambushes will fail, if they even try to attempt it at all, their crew will be overwehlmed with the amount of damage they are taking, while being unable to disable the Spire and their pilot does either not know how to or react quick enough to outmanouver the Spire by going up, just a little bit.
Now let's look higher up on the spectrum, at people that know how the game works. And without much explanation, the Spire loses. Everything that worked in the favour of our lvl 15-20 pilot, is not going to work against people that understand how this game's combat works. They will abuse the Spire's weaknesses to the maximum, going above the gun arcs while still being able to hit their hull, disabling their heavy gun and shutting it down in long range, before it can even ambush. It doesn't need to be ambushed to die, which is what the nerf is trying to achieve here, it just needs to face somebody aware of its weaknesses and then any ship can win against it.
Thus, according to my fictional fantasy of my understand of all the playerbase, the extreme variation in skill levels balance the winrate for non-novice players.

"But then why is the win rate higher when the Spire is flown by pilots of the level over 31?": Because matchmaking doesn't work, it cannot work with that low of a playerbase in this game. High level players always meet the "I just came out of novice" guys, if they are not still novices. If the low levels take a Spire, then they lose against higher level players who are capable of abusing the Spire's weakness. If the high levels take a Spire, they will win, because their opponent does not have the same understanding of the Spire or the game in general to combat a high level pilot effectively, especially not if that pilot has a crew on a similarly high level.

What is actually nerfed on the Spire, for the more experienced players, is its survivability in every situation. They need to be able to do something and turning was the one thing they could do. Now what? Spray and pray, #HwachaSavesLives? The win rates are not going to change dramatically, but gradually, so much that nobody looking only at numbers will care about the Spire and then it will quickly stop. The same principle of player (in-)competence applies, no matter the stats of the ship.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dev Bubbles on March 19, 2016, 12:13:41 am
Hi Omniraptor, I've been prepping for GDC and at GDC (I'm in transit at the airport right now, so please excuse the short replies).  In short, what you asked for we did.  Whether people agreed with our starting point or not is a different matter, but with the overall communications, we did try to do what you suggested.  There are a few issues here with the process.  One is that, it's really hard for us to reach everyone.  Even with 4 weeks of testing and announcements, a lot of people don't know until today.  So finding a better method to make people aware is an issue that we'll need to do better.  The other thing is obviously how we account for, integrate, and replied to player feedback.  With feedback, we actually got a lot.  And as to be expected, they were varied.  People have different play styles, perspectives, natural biases etc, so it's natural for opinions to canvas a spectrum.  What we did do, was to log everything, read everything, and tried the best we could to figure out the issues and pain points.  Granted, our starting point was data.  We did look at different usage rates and win rates of different builds, ships, for different levels of play.  But we didn't end with data.  With balance it's definitely not easy for us. 

To you and Dementio's points, a lot of the stats of ships are interwoven and complex and there are a lot of variables affecting win rates and usage rates, and therefore difficult to hold things in constant.  We made an attempt at it.  Also on the point about looking at data, we do look at how things trended.  So it wasn't a short term horizon that we were looking at.  I do want to note that. 

As for now what, we will use today as a baseline to monitor, and if we see issues, we'll do our best to address them. 
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Jub Jub on March 19, 2016, 12:14:24 am
I'd like to start this post by stating for the record that I'm posting as a player NOT a mod, and that anything I say is an attack against NO ONE. And furthermore would like to state that I too voiced several concerns about the new balance changes that were put into place, like just about everyone else on this thread so far.

This game/community has a serious identity problem, and it shows up again and again, specifically whenever the game gets a patch. I realize that I'm not the oldest guy/gal in the room here, and that many players have been sitting around this party called "Guns of Icarus", but I feel that after 3+ years of being apart of the community, I've about seen all that it has to offer. This problem stems from the fact that every time the game is brought up the two sides are arguing from two completely different perspectives. When Muse says "Hey, guys! We have some great new things that we'd love to hear your opinions on, come on into dev app and email us what you think!" the people they primarily get are competitive players (keep this in mind, it comes back later). Why? Because the competitive community loves the game and they want to see what's going on with it. And, if the player isn't competitive, I'd argue that they're generally more-or-less aware of the game's current meta and so-on-and-so-forth. These players represent the hardcore center of Icarus' veterans. This is not a bad thing!

The issue, is the sheer fact that these hardcore veteran, competitive, meta-capable people are going to have suggestions on how to balance the game in a COMPETITIVE MANNER. However, Guns of Icarus is not balanced around being Competitive. It's balanced around being Casual. And I believe herein lies the major issue. Every single complaint I've seen posted, in this thread and numerous others, focus around the game's competitive balance. Just look at all of the changes that Muse brainstorms to try and implement. A bunch of changes to make the Squid EASIER to fly. Changes to the Typhon Heavy Flak to make it EASIER to shoot. Increased armor/hull on Pyramidion, not to make it better to fly, but EASIER to survive on. The list goes on, and that's just THIS patch, not accounting for any previous balance patch that things were dumb-ed down to make it easier for newer players to pick up the game. I'm entirely for Guns of Icarus to be balanced around being competitive, but it isn't. And until then people giving any sort of feedback have to keep that in mind. The game isn't being balanced for the game's competitive scene. It's being balanced for the game's Novice Pub matches.

TLDR; The game isn't balanced around being competitive and the only feedback Muse gets is from competitive/meta-capable people, attempting/giving suggestions for how the game should be balanced, from a competitive perspective. I'm all for having the game be actually balanced around being competitive, but as of now it isn't. And this is why no one is ever happy whenever a balance patch goes through.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: DrTentacles on March 19, 2016, 12:21:17 am
PvP games have to balance around competitive. If you balance around casual, players lose interest. It's as simple as that. They reach the ceiling, and find that it's shallow, and there's nowhere to go. This doesn't mean that you should have complexity for the sake of complexity-"Simple to learn, difficulty to master" should be a goal.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: ZnC on March 19, 2016, 01:02:11 am
LION GUN OP is dead. LONG LIVE LION GUN OP!

Now that this isn't the Gravity Patch, I dub this the Loch Patch. It really needs -50% Rate of Fire.

Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Keyvias on March 19, 2016, 01:13:40 am
Jub Jub does bring up a very interesting point on Competitive vs Casual.

Guns of Icarus is not balanced solely around any one group, competitive or casual. There are definitely some ships that shine more in the highest level of play and some that shine is the simplest of novice games. No amount of changes can make everything the perfect Novice weapons or the perfect Pro weapons, but I do think you hit the nail on the head with we are all having different conversations.
The highest tier of play is very interesting, it has great games, but it does not define the way all the ships and guns work.  It is something to always be mindful of same as with a novice player. How will a novice player use a hwacha, how will a pro use the lumberjack.

Some things we couldn't trust a novice to use and were removed completely.

I don't think making the heavy flak have 4 shots makes the ceiling less.
As an example:
If a novice gunner has a 25% hit rate
Old Flak: There's a good chance he hits nothing.
New Flak: Statistically, he hits once.

If an expert gunner has a 75% hit rate
Old Flak: A good chance he hits both.
New Flak: Statistically, he misses one.

So I don't think this change sacrifices our expert gunners. People may like the feel of the old 2 shot better, and they definitely can feel that way, but I'd have a hard time believing that the weapon can be just as effective in lesser hands due to this change.

I don't know if all our feedback is from competitive players, but I would agree that a majority of it, especially on the forums does. It is something we could definitely explain better, such as with the spire numbers. Numbers wise, that ship is the most effective at winning, does that make it the best ship in the game for expert level matches, no, but it does provide a lens we look through when making changes.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Omniraptor on March 19, 2016, 02:14:36 am
News from the battlefield: Double loch gatling pyra is hilariously broken. Shreds permahull like nobodys business to say nothing of armor.

@Dev Bubbles I didn't mean specifically as a response to feedback, I meant to show your own views on the state of the game. The timing of these is before or right as you post devapp change notes. What are the problems you are trying to solve and gather feedback on? Stuff like this https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3420.0.html or this https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,4115.msg70584.html
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: DrTentacles on March 19, 2016, 02:26:21 am
Loch is unusable on heavy guns.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dev Bubbles on March 19, 2016, 02:28:02 am
Omni, yeah I know what you mean, and I was trying to say that in the beginning of the process, we did try to do that.  But I do agree that as we released the actual patch and notes, we could have reiterated the context. This I talked to Matt about today and we will do better next time.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Omniraptor on March 19, 2016, 02:31:58 am
Loch is unusable on heavy guns.

yeah I said this for heavy carronade in twitch fireside chat but eric just said it would be fine and good as before. Really is quite frustrating :(

@bubbles thanks for the reply, glad to hear you guys are listening :)
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: DrTentacles on March 19, 2016, 02:33:28 am
This feels a lot more like post-hoc damage control than anything else.

Re: Spire

Spire has a great winrate. However, spire is incredibly easy to counter-play IN LOBBY. The in lobby counterplay is the aspect is the problem.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: HelFyre on March 19, 2016, 02:40:17 am
News from the battlefield: Double loch gatling pyra is hilariously broken. Shreds permahull like nobodys business to say nothing of armor.

@Dev Bubbles I didn't mean specifically as a response to feedback, I meant to show your own views on the state of the game. The timing of these is before or right as you post devapp change notes. What are the problems you are trying to solve and gather feedback on? Stuff like this https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3420.0.html or this https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,4115.msg70584.html

It's ridiculously easy to dodge too (pilot tools, etc), whilst inflicting damage against people who use this, though there are positions where it's not dodgeable, so it's useful, but not always applicable. Furthermore the self damage makes it difficult to use too. People are just adjusting to things, and it takes a while.

Specifically, double lochnagar gat is very silly and it already shredded armour very quickly ^_^
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Letus on March 19, 2016, 03:34:54 am
I don't think making the heavy flak have 4 shots makes the ceiling less.
As an example:
If a novice gunner has a 25% hit rate
Old Flak: There's a good chance he hits nothing.
New Flak: Statistically, he hits once.

If an expert gunner has a 75% hit rate
Old Flak: A good chance he hits both.
New Flak: Statistically, he misses one.

So I don't think this change sacrifices our expert gunners. People may like the feel of the old 2 shot better, and they definitely can feel that way, but I'd have a hard time believing that the weapon can be just as effective in lesser hands due to this change.

I'll throw in my two cents (other than the AoE and Direct should be either swapped around, or get rid of the arming time because nobody is going to notice / miss 50 explosive damage...)

People say I'm a great Lumberjack Gunner, but when it came to the Heavy Flak, it was a noticeable difference...mainly because 1, sights are weird, and 2.) two shots kinda...got annoying...the pressure of missing and hitting and a relatively hard visual cue...I eventually did get better, but my skills definitely shine with the Lumberjack, mostly because I have an entire clip to guage my shots, where Heavy Flak...it really felt like a hit or miss with it.

It's not a gun I got to play with, really, but with the fact that you have slightly more room for error, it'll be interesting to see if it'll get used more.

...great I have to rewrite that guide now...like...from the top...and I don't have much time except for sunday...
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dev Bubbles on March 19, 2016, 04:02:34 am
I'm still traveling and completely exhausted, so apologies once again for the short reply or for any incoherence. 
I do just want to quickly add to what Matt and Jub Jub said earlier.  We do look at how things trend as well as usage and win rates in pub matches overall, as well as in novice matches.  Hwacha for example was an issue area that we wanted to address.  However, we looked a lot at high level play as well.  From a data standpoint, if we were to be responsible in looking at data as a starting point to identify issue areas, we had to look at data across a longer time frame and larger data sample.  Heavy flak was an example of this.  The ships we made adjustments to followed the same arc.  Process wise, we did look towards feedback for ideas, and we came up with some ideas ourselves as well obviously.  What was also valuable was the interim feedback that ended up giving us references or ideas for week to week changes.  If we looked at hwacha, we initially experimented with the way it fired, and that didn't go over well, so we started looking at a different solution, and the current solution seemed better received.  We went through a bit of this with the squid.  While some of you are not happy with the acceleration change still, the gun arc changes did go through a few iterations, and these iterations we did do largely based on feedback. 

So I would say that we do make sone considerations for general pub and lower level play.  But we also do make a lot of considerations for higher level play as well.  Different levels of play have different issues, which add to the complexity when it comes to balance.  The actual picture for us has always been more complex. 

So I do agree with Jub Jub, but I think the actual picture for me is more complex. 
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dev Bubbles on March 19, 2016, 04:06:11 am
Aww really sorry for the hassle Letus.  And yeah, you did touch on some of the underlying considerations behind flak. 

I mean, we could start this type of conversation earlier as some of you guys want.  One reason why we did not start this type of discussion openly is so we don't introduce more bias into this process.  It does make communication tougher, so there's a trade off.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: MightyKeb on March 19, 2016, 05:21:01 am
VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE.

Spire has been classified as an "Easy" ship in the game and has been allowed in novice since the last two patches. Please fix this.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Kamoba on March 19, 2016, 05:50:32 am
VERY IMPORTANT ISSUE.

Spire has been classified as an "Easy" ship in the game and has been allowed in novice since the last two patches. Please fix this.

I agree..

It also encourages really crap meta ideals to Novices who will not experience the pain of Hades.

Novice players will take double gunners, they will win in a Spire against other novice ships through luck, assume double gunners are a good thing, then they will face off same ship and loadouts against one hades, they will die horribly and either rage quite, accuse enemy of cheating before rage quit, or give up after two more matches...

The Spire should not be in Novice for many many other reasons..
The only reason I think it is in Novice is the "point ship forward and win" frame of mind it brings... Like the fish, and Pyramidion...

Very few Novices leave using Junker successfully, those rare few that do tend to stay for a while...
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Kendra Finegrinder on March 19, 2016, 06:39:14 am
Mobula
-Outer top guns fanned out 5 degrees
-Inner bottom guns fanned out 10 degrees

The Mobula is boring as hell to fly for noobs and vets alike in sniper battles. In fact boring is not the important issue. It was just plain too easy - I'm pointing to the typical artemises on wings / merc or hades in middle setup you see so standardly in sniper battles. And take note when I say too easy I do not necessarily mean something is OP. I define it as super easy since, even though an experienced pilot would only be threatened by it if it was manned by a formidable crew, it's so good on so many maps that any semi-intelligent level 1 crew can win with it if they have merely one person to demystify the mobula to them.

Now I run matches on this ship often enough myself. But I don't think the laziness this super easy kind of ship encourages affects higher level people as, er, profoundly as it does newbies. Because what happens is they very quickly fight a bunch of matches, win a bunch of matches because they looked up the meta, get a super inflated ego, and then spend some time reading "Hwacha Makes Your Guns Irrelevant, and Other Valuable Lessons" in the form of a bunch of humiliating losses when they enter the double digits. Here you are in the realm of people who have figured out at least some of the fundamentals on how games are won beyond google ship builds.

Not saying there shouldn't be plenty of highly noob-accessible ships - far from it -  there should be lots. But each one should teach some kind of lesson, like how eventually anyone who changes the guns a few times when they'd been winning with a metamidion figures out what guns pierce armor and what guns kill ships. I don't think this particular build does that though. It really just makes some unfortunate new captains think they can turn their ship in the right direction in the first 15 seconds of the game and win the match.

So I guess what I like about this change is that it will keep new pilots more engaged and reduce the artemis/merc/artemis build tendency if only by a little, because the truly lazy of the laziest new captain would not want to have anything to do with something that makes you become skilled at turning your ship more precisely at long range than "the enemy's general direction." I assume that's what it'll boil down to, and the low turning acceleration with high turning speed would support it.

But the problem is then that what it'll really probably end up doing is making where mobula is played less all together. 'Cause yeah those that would find this new ranged ship too annoying to fly in general, or those that may feel now they have to make a better ship choice sometimes, are not going to take another mobula build instead. And while short range mobulas aren't exactly popular if you feel at all threatened, pre patch they were a common choice among newbies. It's not great that where they've slid by with it with enough luck and aggression in the past, now they're going to just shrug and assume anything other than a long range mobula on a long range map is basically the new squid that, within a certain range of levels, everyone will deride you for choosing.

Another problem compounding this case is that turning radius of guns in particular is not a stat people become aware of, or if they are aware of it, it does not factor into their strategy or choice until they've got hundreds of matches under their belts. I feel freaking accomplished when I can explain the difference between piercing and explosive to someone new. Explaining why the guns on the front of the ship actually suck at shooting things directly in front of them seems fairly futile.

I tried to think of the perfect solution for this but quickly shrugged and decided I don't actually care if only because I'm curious if people may come up with more asymmetrical crew placements. It's fun to see what people come up with when they're stubborn to make a ship work, and this nerf isn't near potent enough that plenty of people won't try. Maybe in a couple months from now we'll be living in a crazy nonsense world where three gunners crammed onto the left wing of the mobula is the new meta. >____>

Heavy Flak
-Damage moved to direct hit for a 70/30% split between direct and AoE (from 45/55%)
-Higher clip capacity to 4 (from 2)
-Damage per shot reduced (115/50 explosive, from 150/180 explosive)
-Increased RoF of 2 shots/s (from 0.8 )
-Reduced reload time of 4.5s (from 5)
-Reduced camera shake

Super. Yes. Good. I hated this gun before the patch; literally was my least favorite. Reason being: I don't have access to someone who's going to run the same gun over and over and over just so I can practice a gun. I was able to learn other guns that most consider more difficult - hades, lumberjack, and mining - but that was because the payoff of choosing those guns are good enough for people to give to me and give to me often. In fact I bet every gunner who says they are great with flak has a pilot friend with an all gat / flak spire fetish. So yeah, this actually not only makes it where more people will give me this weapon, but it also takes care of another compounding annoyance of the low clip and reload time which made it difficult to get used to the arcs in the rare cases someone does hand me one.

Spire
-Reduced turn acceleration to 10d/s2 (from 15)
-Reduced top turn speed to 10d/s from 12

Good. It shouldn't be a shock to anyone who has seen the hwacha + kill gun bottom deck, both taken by gunner / two gats going at once up top by engies build (and its slight derivatives)  that's been very popularly devouring ships in close quarter maps for the past few months that the spire had the highest kill rate in the stats. If I'm on that ship with a good captain & crew I feel unstoppable. It's probably the only build / strategy in the game before the patch I thought was truly broken OP (at least on Canyon Ambush and to only slightly lesser extents Paritan & Duel) ... (any chances on some win rate by map data??).

Like 1/5 matches do I feel like I really help on that ship by being a great gunner. Honestly I think this turning nerf makes a great deal of sense, since I can recall many times in the past couple months where we get so lazy on that ship that people sneak up behind us and it doesn't even matter, even against good people. And as fun as it feeling like an unstoppable godking, it's like, wow, they were clearly better than us on this, they did a great ambush, they deserved that point.

I’ll point out that any nerf to the hwacha has to be viewed as also a spire (and goldfish) nerf as it stands now, since the spire is generally very hwacha dependent. But, I guess I’m in the minority of being stoked to try the new hwacha. If how I’m guessing this will change the way the hwacha’s fired is correct, then it would probably not hurt the spire as much as I thought it would when hemming and hawwing with friends over the “is the hwacha too powerful?” question before.

However rather than explain myself I am going to stop rambling and sleep at some point… Yeah… I can dig it… Good job, probably… k love you nite
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: SiepeAssassina on March 19, 2016, 06:47:17 am
If a novice gunner has a 25% hit rate
Old Flak: There's a good chance he hits nothing.
New Flak: Statistically, he hits once.

If an expert gunner has a 75% hit rate
Old Flak: A good chance he hits both.
New Flak: Statistically, he misses one.

WHAT DID I JUST READ?
Can someone please explain me?
No?
I'll do it myself then: what you're saying is that since the old flak had just 2 ammo in one round we had a lower chance to hit due to some magical ideas.
Last time I checked the flak isn't a disposable guns SO WHY ON EARTH YOU MAKE THOSE ASSUMPTIONS ON JUST ONE FLAK MAGAZINE?
For example in a whole match I may shoot 30-40 h.flak rounds (making up numbers for the sake of proof), it doesn't make a friggin diffrence if the flak shoots 4 or 2 ammo each magazine.
I'll still hit with the (again making up numbers) 65% of them, no matther how many shots each magazin the flak has.
You may argue that 4 shots are more encouraging but still the gun has lost his charm and you gained nothing.

Keep on making this game more and more flat, no risk, no skills needed, just throw a bunch of guns and full steam ahead.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: KeijoPertti on March 19, 2016, 07:08:09 am
If a novice gunner has a 25% hit rate
Old Flak: There's a good chance he hits nothing.
New Flak: Statistically, he hits once.

If an expert gunner has a 75% hit rate
Old Flak: A good chance he hits both.
New Flak: Statistically, he misses one.

WHAT DID I JUST READ?
Can someone please explain me?
No?
I'll do it myself then: what you're saying is that since the old flak had just 2 ammo in one round we had a lower chance to hit due to some magical ideas.
Last time I checked the flak isn't a disposable guns SO WHY ON EARTH YOU MAKE THOSE ASSUMPTIONS ON JUST ONE FLAK MAGAZINE?
For example in a whole match I may shoot 30-40 h.flak rounds (making up numbers for the sake of proof), it doesn't make a friggin diffrence if the flak shoots 4 or 2 ammo each magazine.
I'll still hit with the (again making up numbers) 65% of them, no matther how many shots each magazin the flak has.
You may argue that 4 shots are more encouraging but still the gun has lost his charm and you gained nothing.

Keep on making this game more and more flat, no risk, no skills needed, just throw a bunch of guns and full steam ahead.

Also worth pointing out, that one hit of novice with 4 ammo clip will likely do nothing if the enemy knows how to fix hull.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: KeijoPertti on March 19, 2016, 07:47:58 am
Quick test in practise lobby, loch on carro seems useless, but not to worry, loch LJ is much better popper than carro ever was.

Also, buffed loch gats gonna be a thing.


Honestly, I'd rather have loch removed from the game rather than have this new version of it.

Or if you want this super ammo on light guns, remove the rest of the ammos, they aren't needed.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Kendra Finegrinder on March 19, 2016, 08:34:54 am
Damn. Can't sleep. Guns drama too mesmerising. I feel like it probably wouldn't be if I came here more than twice a year, though. =P

Well, anyway. Here's some silly thoughts on the silly squid stuff.

Squid
-Back gun turned inwards (towards right side of ship) 40 degrees (from 0)
-Increased forward/backward acceleration to 8m/s2 (from 6.66)

I am happy for any squid boost, and anyone who doesn't think this was needed should probably get their head examined. That's probably not a bad thing for people masochistic enough simultaneously play competitive games and care, even a little. But the actual change seems to only address the issue of the squid sucking kind of indirectly. It's like.

"Psst. Hey, yeah, you. Yeah, you, Get over here. No one's gonna notice us now because they should all be rioting about the hwachas or the War On Fun. That's a real thing you know. Also no one cares about squids but you, like literally, you're the only person. Our bad I guess. Anyway, to put it in a way that is both unnecessarily and intriguingly roundabout, I'm not sayin' we're going to make you OP or anything, but we feel a certain KIND of pilot could in theory find a way to use this well enough to make people stop insisting, for a while, that squid is the worst ship of all time in all situations forever."

I can tell you I am not aboard a squid in any capacity often enough to have an opinion of how to "fix" it. Or even tell if it's really broken at all. It is a weird relative I have to live with but will admit to kind of not hating at this point. Even still, I've always wondered if maybe most of the squid's problem was pilot failure to work with ally enough to make it the effective support / opportunistic kill ship it was designed to be rather than using it as the actual answer to all questions. If that is the case it probably is weak, but not by as much as people moan about. Weak enough that people interested in being an effective support ship satisfy that urge with other ships is probably the relevant thing. And if that's true almost any small boost could make it a more popular choice.

That's what the strategy here is with this change, though, right? Giving a captain a new way to maneuver an old favorite different enough to suggest new ways of flying it that may actually turn out to be very powerful. Squid is #1 choice of captains who personify their ship as a misunderstood but despite obvious flaws nigh perfect sort of Mary Sue who needs her honor defended in lobbies. This is a sufficient amount of people to test this theory. And it occurs to me I should insist I'm not referring to anyone in particular. The captains I've met who can make the squid work consistently have at this point been stereotyped as having these traits:

- impressive flying ability (at least better than average)
- impressive ability to delude oneself that It Was Because Of The Ally every single time
- actually a pleasure to work with, but gets feisty as opposition

With a weird cult following the Squid seems to find a way to satisfy this sort of competitive idealist. I assume this is good for Muse because they get to direct the bulk of their career induced sadism at whatever cruel but fair challenge they seem like they're dangling in front of squid lovers, or those other people who don't like the squid well enough to actually fly it but Want To Believe.

I also want to believe but would also gladly settle for teaming with / blowing up zany ships manned with enthusiastic but ill-fated crews insisting stuff like "flying backward - that's the ticket!" and "squid is the new galleon." But the rest of it's like, we'll see what they do with it. Seems reasonable.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: MightyKeb on March 19, 2016, 08:44:44 am
but we feel a certain KIND of pilot could in theory find a way to use this well enough to make people stop insisting, for a while, that squid is the worst ship of all time in all situations forever."

This is false. The addition of pilot stamina has benefitted squid the most along with 950 hull and 6.66 acceleration a year ago. There has been evidence of successful squid usage in competitive games as of late and at one point the current competitive meta was widely considered to be a circle between Mobula > Fish > Squid > Mobula.

For the actual evidence of squid being used well competitively and squid being used in general, refer to Blood and Brass tournament VODs on Muse Games' channel, as well as Cronus Leauge clips. (Prime examples from both: Team Predators in BB and Team Bumble in CL.)

The fact is, squid's effectiveness is tied to the pilot itself making minimum amount of mistakes. Those who can are feared, those who can't are shown as "proof" that squid's a bad ship. Simply pay no attention to the naysayers and realize they're stuck in a baser mode of thought.

In my opinion, flying backwards 24/7 is still as ridicilous as it was before, but it's very much possible to have an easy back-side bifecta whilst being able to rotate to the front more quickly now because you can slide by them with your side.

HOWEVER. I doubt that the average squid pilot (the one who consistently proves it's "weaknesses") will be able to abuse that as much as the vet squid pilot does. So this change didn't actually lower squid's skill floor as far as back gun usage goes.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: nanoduckling on March 19, 2016, 11:45:11 am
From what I can tell the consultation with players was a complete waste of our time, and probably yours too. It was not taken into account. As for this little gem:

"side note, highest ship winrate in the game before this patch."

this tells me everything I need to know about what was really used to inform how balance decisions were made. Statistics are essential when making decisions like this, but ripped devoid of context they are more likely to be a curse than a blessing.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: GurasOguras on March 19, 2016, 12:04:47 pm
Quote
Mobula
-Outer top guns fanned out 5 degrees
-Inner bottom guns fanned out 10 degrees

People say that it's gonna be pain to flank mobula now, but while guns on the closer wing to flanking ship will get their arcs a bit sooner (or lose later), guns on the other side will get their guns aimed later. It's still balanced around sides. What that change really does is make for mobula a bit more difficult to keep it's guns in arc at frontal engagements. I though that brawlmob will be completely broken, but it is still able to get two gatlings, just no longer at point blank range against small ships.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Omniraptor on March 19, 2016, 12:15:14 pm
That's why I wanted them to justify the nerf.. Because this change does not address anything close to the actual  reason why people complain about mobula. It just makes close range mob a bit more difficult. Personally I would try removing one of the wingtip guns.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dev Bubbles on March 19, 2016, 12:15:40 pm
Hi everyone,
There are some back and forth discussions on the balance changes themselves, but let me focus for a moment on the process and the point about player feedback feeling like a waste of time.  Like I said earlier, data, especially data from higher level play (matches with predominantly vets) over the course of time, gave us some starting points.  Over each week of testing, we tried out some different ideas.  We tried the drop, and people gave us feedback on that, and the mechanic was removed.  We tried 3 different adjustments to the mobula guns, and people gave us feedback on that, with which we tried to make the best adjustments possible after each week of testing.  We tried a hwacha firing mechanic and people gave us feedback on that and we discarded.  We eventually settled on a change that seemed to be more palatable to most people who gave us feedback in later weeks of testing.  We had a couple of attempts at the harpoon, and people's feedback grew more positive.  We tried playing with squid's gun angle of different guns, and people gave us feedback on that. 

So I'm not quite sure where the impression of feedback not being taken into account arrived from.  I do want to note that, we did get a lot of feedback, and a lot of them conflicting, which was interesting and good in a way, because people have varying opinions, biases, preferences, etc.  But it does mean that we have to try to look for patterns and people's rationale and logic.  We can't be expected to just take someone's point of view and run with it wholesale I think for obvious reasons, and not taking one person's feedback should not be conceived of as a slight.  Meaning, it doesn't mean we don't appreciate it.  This is the burden with us receiving feedback, is that we had to consider all of them, and it was a challenge for us. 

Having said that, I think we can do better with the communications with each round of testing, and do more to preface the changes before we took the changes live.  We have limited means so far to do that, because not everyone access the same information at the same place and at the same time.  So one though may be potentially to do more announcements in game etc.  We're still thinking about what to do. 

I honestly think we've tried to do better (and the process should have been better than before).  We organized multiple rounds of testing, did blind as well as testing with notes published every round, properly logged all feedback, and had weekly meeting with Matt, me, Alex, Eric, Josie, and Mikko at least to review everything and debate.  Different people's ideas and reasonings were brought up and discussed. 

We definitely have room for improvement though, both in terms of the process itself and providing more context.  We'll try to do better. 
Thanks for listening, Howard
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dev Bubbles on March 19, 2016, 12:20:22 pm
@Omni, I felt like in the beginning of the process we did, but once again, it just points out the communication gap.  With the changes, we also had to be careful about making drastic changes.  Based on past experiences, it was not advisable to make wild changes, as they would be arbitrary.  I'm not saying that we're more conservative with ideas, but I am saying that we are more careful now than before.  We did try things that were more drastic, ex. the fall etc, in the first two weeks, but those had to be pulled back or discarded, which was fine. 
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: nanoduckling on March 19, 2016, 12:27:33 pm
And just because I suspect that those 11 changes are going to be offered as a counter argument let me explain why I'm not counting most of them.

-Gravity changes removed
Gravity was completely broken. It should never have been in the Dev App to begin with, at least not for a balance patch. Why are we testing alpha stuff in a balance patch?

-Hwacha autofire removed
This was not a substantial problem either way, and the problems with the hwacha have not been addressed. Maybe you get this one, because a few folks had some strong reactions.

-Mobula's arc changes scaled back
From insane to still crippling for interesting builds while not addressing the core problem with the meta mob. The changes settled on here should have been the wacky outlandish "lets try as big as we can starting point", not where we settled.

-Spires turning changes scaled back (was much higher)
The fact we are discussing nerfing the Spire in the first place is a problem. How many times is it brought to competitive games outside of lab/paritan/canyon?

-AI should not fire the harpoon
This was a bug, this is not responding to feedback this is us being your beta testers (that's fine, part of patch testing, but it isn't really listening to us). I'm being generous here and assuming this was not intended behaviour because if it was then I hope you aren't expecting brownie points for removing really, really bad ideas.

-Pyra mass increased
We are having to fix the pyra again because the last set of big balance patches broke it. Listening to our feedback a year after we give it doesn't seem like it belongs on this list. The changes made in these patches were too large, and the changes made in this patch are too large.

-Squid front gun arc put back in its proper place
The fact we are discussing buffing a competitive meta ship is a problem.

-Squid rear gun moved slightly
Why are we buffing the squid at all. It is a competitive meta ship.

-Lochnagar went from 65% back its normal 125%
Breaking the meta with a baseball bat instead of a club hammer.

-Hwacha got slower and almost lost range because of this, but was changed.
The range reduction was a bug wasn't it? And the hwacha is still a problem.

-Reduced screen shake
This one I'll give you.

So out of the 11 listed most either aren't balance testing but are in fact major mechanics changes, buffs or nerfs which are not needed and do nothing to address the competitive meta, are addressing over balancing from last time, or are actually bug fixes. We have one, minor (if important) UI modification on this list. Maybe two relevant changes if I give you removing the hwacha autofire since the community didn't like the idea. I hope you can see why some of us don't think this is a productive use of our time.

So maybe I'm being a bit harsh. This consultation was only almost a complete waste of our and your time.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dev Bubbles on March 19, 2016, 12:49:32 pm
Just one note on gravity change, the faster fall would have been closer to actual real physics, so it was not broken.  We wanted to see if trying that would allow people to get out of locking and arc faster, but obviously that didn't work. 

With trying the as big as we can in terms of changes as a starting point, we did try to be more careful.  This was because in the past, larger changes were generally perceived very negatively, but it's a fair point. 

With the pyra, if we broke it, it was because it was generally considered significantly overpowered the patch before last, and the data reflected that.  We tried not to make knee-jerk changes and wanted to let data collection last for longer.  Too long?  Perhaps, but I don't think people accept knee-jerk changes now. 

I don't believe there was a range reduction bug with the hwacha.   
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dementio on March 19, 2016, 12:49:39 pm
I understand that this game doesn't solely focus around balancing toward competitive, but that doesn't mean it should be ignored completely. If you want to buff the Squid and nerf the Spire, because pubs have no idea what they are doing, fine, but don't just ignore what you are doing to the other half of the game, the ones that are actually actively talking to you and playing this game more than once after the sale. If you buff the already good ship and nerf the already bad ship, then for god sake, add some nerfs to the good and buffs to the bad so the other half can still enjoy it.

Over each week of testing, we tried out some different ideas.

And there are a million things you could have done, but didn't even try. Examples are giving the Pyramidion more speed or not actually buffing the Squid's speed or nerfing the Squid's hull, because it being faster should mean it can dodge more. You haven't tried balancing, instead you stuck with the set of your first ideas and no matter what anybody told you, you tried your best to gear your first set ideas to something that would actually work. Ignoring the fact that your first set of ideas could be flawed or that you could be flat out making the good better and the bad worse.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: ZnC on March 19, 2016, 12:52:36 pm
@Bubbles:
Thanks for giving us your perspective. While far from perfect, I think the balance changes are much better than the previous year and there is definitely improvement. Having put a lot of time and effort into writing feedback, I can understand why some of us feel that our feedback isn't changing anything. This might mostly be due to individual suggestions not being tested as they are, or even seriously considered. We state the problems, highlight core issues, and propose viable solutions which are tailored for them (which, at least for me, were never tested). It can be frustrating when players see changes that are completely different (like out-of-the-world different) than what we propose.

A lot of us are also puzzled by the frequency and magnitude of balance patches. Balance is done by making small tweaks to numbers over short periods of time. From what we see, GOI "balance" patches are big annual gameplay changes that completely shifts the meta like an expansion would. I believe these two are the main reason why people are upset. Thanks for the work however, I know the team has put in quite some effort for this one. I can only hope you guys consider the Rate of Fire reduction idea that I sent in for Lochnagar, just before the patch went live.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dev Bubbles on March 19, 2016, 01:01:21 pm
@dementio, I don't think we've ignored competitive at all to be honest, as a lot of feedback, including yours have been taken into account. 

Right now, you have specific issue with squid and spire, and I get that.  In this case, I do agree that we were motivated by stats in vet matches as well as matches that were predominantly played by vets.  We wanted to get a larger sample size over a longer period.  If this has misled us potentially, we are aware, and these 2 items are things we will be monitoring most closely over the coming days. 

As for trying different ideas.  Granted, we have not tried every single variable that's potentially in existence, surely.  As you guys noted in this thread, we have not been stuck on 1 set of ideas either.  With changes, we had to hold some things constant, and I don't think we ignored the fact that our first ideas could be flawed. 

Well in any case, it's not my place to change your opinion or argue.  I do agree that we have rooms for improvement, and we will look specifically at the spire and the squid. 

Thanks for listening, Howard
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dev Bubbles on March 19, 2016, 01:07:32 pm
@zanc, definitely noted.  With balance, in the past, we were more prone to make shorter, quicker, more knee-jerked decisions that were more earth shattering.  Whether they be artemis, heavy flak, pyra, banshee, etc etc, the changes were more drastic, and the cycle of change was shorter.  That was generally perceived very negatively we felt, so we tried to slow things down a bit.  Use data collection to run for longer, try to find trends or patterns.  Ex. with pyra for example, when we looked at the data of both matches overall and vet matches, we saw that, after a perceived nerf, we saw noticeable decline in usage initially.  That's understandable because there was a perceived and real nerf.  So initially usage trended down, and then over time it trended back up, as more people played with it, and eventually reached more of an equilibrium.  If we had not given more time, we might have jumped on more changes right away, and that wasn't the best we felt either.  In this case, have we waited too long?  Perhaps.  It's a bit tough to find that right balance, and we'll try harder. 
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: -Mad Maverick- on March 19, 2016, 01:12:13 pm
Love being able to knock people off arcs again with my PYRA.  Moonshine plus bumpers on a PYRA is a thing again!  I think adding this small change (plus health). While not adding speed isn't necessarily bad.  I obviously don't fly as much right now as I used to but I think that some of you may be trying to fly the PYRA like a modified version of some other boat you are used to.  The PYRA is a very different type of flying style.  Try things out with it that you typically wouldnt with other ships.  E.g. Raming saves lives, it also breaks hulls,  Don't worry about claw because if you missed you're fucked anyway... Things like that.

I'll be flying a lot more often thanks to this patch so maybe I'll change my mind but maybe you will.


Thanks Howard you were right about your predictions for this patch I think.  But to be fair I did say "only if you buff the PYRAs mass will I care about any patches..."
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Fynx on March 19, 2016, 01:21:45 pm
I do not doubt everyone working on this patch spent a lot of time doing it. What people here are raging about is not that it's done without thinking or without attention, but that it addresses the issue in a weird way. Make sure you know what you're doing: there's a thread in this forum discussing roles of each ship. People might have opinions about those and if you go against it there is a lot of shouting around. Still, in order to make changes that make sense you do have to define what you want to accomplish. If it's every ship being equal to every other ship, used exactly as often and by players from all levels of experience - so be it. Just make sure you announce it somewhere and remove the 'difficulty' tags in ships. Players will rage, but that's entirely your choice.

There's a second thing nanoduckling already mentioned. There's a huge amount of feedback about what is overpowered and what is not used enough. There's an enormous number of ideas of how to fix it being sent as feedback and posted here on the forum. Instead, some other innovative changes are introduced and all that feedback (patch or between patches) is ignored.

I also absolutely understand the difficulty coming from attempts to balance both casual and competitive games. The key lies in understanding what exactly makes matches happen as they do and why statistics look whatever they look like. So far it looks kind of upside down, everything.

The final opinion about what is balanced and what is not and how cannot be made during testing the patches or right now, but it'll appear in few weeks. That's why it's important to create more smaller patches, rather than one huge in a year, followed by rage and hotfixes.

The last thing is that like JubJub I'm happy something is happening, even if it's questionable.

As for the current changes:

Mobula
I'm absolutely sure you tried your best guys. Still, you got one thing wrong: changing the arcs is not leading anywhere. Sniping meta still op. Nothing changed about that. Assuming that was supposed to be the problem, that is.

Spire
Statistics are irrelevant at this point, this ship is just as effective against inexperienced players as it was and worse against experienced players. And that's the exact opposite effect to what should be accomplished. High win ratio in experienced player games comes from experienced players switching from spires when they get hardcountered. I understand the 'difficulty' tag set to 'easy' being a sort of a surrender to the difficulty of balancing this ship.

Squid
I actually like the tilt on the aft gun. It's not a direct or indirect boost, it's the exact opposite of mobula changes - it provides some interesting opportunities (whereas mobula change nerfs the clever ideas and supports the meta).
Acceleration boost was vastly unnecessary though, unless in the next patch 'difficulty' tag of squid changes to 'easy', like in the spire. Like I wrote: decide what you want to do with this ship. If it's supposed to be a 'hard' ship then don't balance it completely around low level games, because it leads nowhere. The strength of a squid is not something low level players use (what MightyKeb already wrote) so by buffing the 'experienced' parameter to make it 'easier to fly' is kind of ridiculous (same in the spire).

Heavy Flak
The intention was to make it used more and more accessible to lower level players. I will respect this approach.

Lochnagar
Broken on heavy guns, but some really interesting opportunities for the light guns. And the blenderfish is officially dead for real this time. I understand that this change was adjusted under the pressure of feedback and I'm thankful for it. It's still broken on heavy flak, so the result comparing to initial reason for this change (ammo for heavy flak) came out a little bit awkward.

Hwacha
I kinda like it. It's still really powerful close range, but it's easier to avoid it medium/long range. This nerf is definitely a step in the good direction, even if it might be not enough.

Pyramidion
Finally. It took a while though.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: nanoduckling on March 19, 2016, 01:23:10 pm
Just one note on gravity change, the faster fall would have been closer to actual real physics, so it was not broken.  We wanted to see if trying that would allow people to get out of locking and arc faster, but obviously that didn't work. 
You know I'm a physicist right Bubbles? It was broken as a game mechanic, not as a physics simulation. If you want to make GoI a good physics simulation then you need to have all the airships fall from the sky and never take off again.

With trying the as big as we can in terms of changes as a starting point, we did try to be more careful.
Calculating characteristic scales of physical systems is not difficult. It is just simple dimensional analysis. It isn't a matter of being more careful, it is a matter of adjusting systems in a regime where things are still likely to be linear.

With the pyra, if we broke it, it was because it was generally considered significantly overpowered the patch before last, and the data reflected that.
I don't understand why you think this is a reason. Why not nerf the pyras hull by 10% a year ago. Then a month later if it was still dominant give it another 10%. We've had a year where the pyra has largely been a broken mess that adds very little to the game. Would another month or two of pyra meta dominance have been worse for some reason I'm missing?

We tried not to make knee-jerk changes and wanted to let data collection last for longer.
How much power do the statistical models you are using need? Knee-jerk is certainly bad, but the problem has historically been magnitude as well as what seems to some of us as over-reaction.

Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dev Bubbles on March 19, 2016, 01:46:03 pm
@nanoduckling I have no doubt you forget more about physics than I'll ever know.  All I am saying is that, from a game development point of view, it is not broken.  When you say broken, that to a game dev means there is a bug.  So I was trying to tell you that there was no bug. 

With pyra, I guess it's a difference in thinking on how to approach this.  I feel like a month by month type of shorter iterative adjustment is something I want to avoid.  I don't think that's enough time, but a year is probably too long.  I think the better approach would likely be somewhere in the middle.  And this is a point that some others' have raised as well.  Specifically with the pyra, we did nerf the hull of the pyra slightly.  With the role of the pyra, it was perceived as overpowered the patch before, and the data reflected that.  So we adjusted the pyra.  I think the valid critique of the pyra was the lacking of a more definitive role.  This was something we tried to address in this build.  If we had adjusted the pyra back along the same axis as before, then that oscillation in perception and usage would likely hold true, so with this change, it's more of an attempt to define more of a role.  It seems like it's decently perceived so far. 

Actually, historically the problem has indeed been magnitude, which we've tried to dial down.  Meaning, in the past, we have made changes of greater magnitude, and the over-reaction had been greater.  In this update, I do believe that the actual changes were smaller in magnitude. 

For statistical models, it's really not terribly complicated.  We just want to make sure we don't make decisions anecdotally, and observe emergent patterns, and make sure that when we make a change, we have a way to measure if that change is effective or not.  We do more complex regression analysis for the match system (and I'm sure I'll open a bigger can of worm for mentioning it :D). 
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Montessoir on March 19, 2016, 01:46:34 pm
I'm excited to see how these play out! Thanks for your constant work on the game, and keep it up!

Ps. Especially excited about that harpoon reel in!
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dev Bubbles on March 19, 2016, 01:56:07 pm
Guys, you can absolutely criticize us for not communicating better, for not implementing all you guys' ideas, and for failing at the actual changes in some way.  That's totally fine.  The only thing I want to reiterate is that, we did not somehow ignore all the feedback and all the ideas.  That did not happen.  I just wanted to reassure that.  I'm not sure how much consolation that is, but I feel like we take feedback really seriously.  I think if you guys go back to our build history, you can find ideas of all kinds being implemented.  I have to check, but we might be over 1K features or changes implemented based on player feedback (don't quote me on it).  This might not sound huge in DOTA's scheme of things, but I for one am really proud of it.  So if you can help it, please don't feel like you are being ignored. 

Even with the changes with squid and spire that you don't agree, we're not drawing a line in the sand or setting anything in stone.  I do hear your points, and we do consider them. 

Thanks a lot everyone!
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Mythical Donuts on March 19, 2016, 02:13:04 pm
This, is not a balance. All Muse did is literally crew a lot of stuff up. Lochnagar, DID NOT need the buff, when ever you enter a lobby with anyone that knows how to play, all you will see is loched metamidions, and loched carronades.  Lochnagar is just too overpowered now. Also, these thip changes are questionable. The mobula was the most fun ship for builds, but with these new arcs, nothing will collide. And the pyramidion? Come on muse, shop buffing the good ships and nerfing the bad ones. Pyramidion was already good enough, it seriously didn't need these changes. And the spire? Well it sure as hell didn't need to be nerfed. The spire was so easily countered, by literally everything, it could have actually used a buff!

Overall 2/10.
(+2 is because the harpoon finally got buffed)

At least we actually knew this buff was coming. Thanks for letting us know about it, but next time maybe a democratic vote is needed, for each change.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: nanoduckling on March 19, 2016, 02:28:01 pm
@nanoduckling I have no doubt you forget more about physics than I'll ever know.  All I am saying is that, from a game development point of view, it is not broken.  When you say broken, that to a game dev means there is a bug.  So I was trying to tell you that there was no bug. 
I'm being generous and assuming the design target isn't physical realism but particular game-play behaviour. I don't want to get into software design philosophy but to me a bug is when the code does something other than what is in the design document. If you are telling me that behaviour is WoD then I suggest changing design targets. Realism really shouldn't be one.

With pyra, I guess it's a difference in thinking on how to approach this.  I feel like a month by month type of shorter iterative adjustment is something I want to avoid.
Okay, but why?

For statistical models, it's really not terribly complicated.  We just want to make sure we don't make decisions anecdotally, and observe emergent patterns, and make sure that when we make a change, we have a way to measure if that change is effective or not.
I'm assuming straightforward linear regressions then. What were the results of your power analysis for these models then? Do you need a years worth of data?

We do more complex regression analysis for the match system (and I'm sure I'll open a bigger can of worm for mentioning it :D). 
I'll do everyone the favour of not talking about matchmaker.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: SteamBrains on March 19, 2016, 02:30:51 pm
How can this be called a "Balance" update?

Really though, Muse I appreciate everything your doing with guns of Icarus, it's An amazing game and I really enjoy it. But there are a ton of major problems with this update, let's start with the pros
Harpoon was buffed which is pretty cool, opens up possibilities of cool new ship load outs. Another good thing (in my opinion) is the new way loch works, it's cool that it can be used in something besides a heavy flak lumber or carro, but that doesn't mean I like it better :P (FLAKSPIRE PLZ) anyway. that's basically the only good things I can say about his update. time for the fun stuff
THE CONS:
-First of all fanning out the guns on the mobula was a huge mistake. It was not the way to fix the OP cancer mob/cheese mob whatever you call it. (Basically a mob with a merc and at least 2 arts) I loved the mobula because as long as no one in the lobby took a cancer mob, you could experiment with different close and long range builds, for example you old put framers and banshees, Carros all that. (I personally love 2 flaks hades and banshees) but now that the arcs are spread out that destroys the possibility of finding new loadouts
     I believe the correct way to fix the OP mob problem is to nerd the Artemis arc. Artemis are great guns but when you have 2 combined with a merc kinda op. Now if there's just one that opens up the possibility of banshee or flaks which may lead to some more fun matches, than just dunes snipe-fest 2k16.
     Basically why ruin one of the most capable ships of making fun new loadouts when you can just nerd one guns arc and open up so many more new loadouts?
     The second Huuuge problem i see, is the new indirect buff of the meta. I have taken some time to fly around with the new update before I wrote this and I have seen almost everyone flying meta-midions with gat flak + loch. How I see it, is why does the meta get a buff, and ruin the possibility of fun new loadouts.
     Why nerd the spire? I agree the spire was getting too op, but once again maybe just nerf the arcs, also the new Hflak, and lochnagar functions kinda nerfed it in itself, but still spire needs that extreme turn speed, that's what sets it apart. Why not keep the speed decrease and increase the turn speed, if balance is really the goal.
     


   In Conclusion

I think that this update failed what it set out to do. The game was more balanced the way it was before. Why buff the meta, and completely ruin the possibilities of new loadouts? Especially with the Mobula, the fan out really puts a set back that could have been fixed by just nerfing an Artemis a bit.
     Before players were rewarded for trying out new loadouts and experimenting with new gun combos, but now it seems that the direction the game is taking is to just be meta builds all over the place and pointing in every possible direction. I only like 2 of the things this update "balanced" and I do believe they could be easily fixed.
     All in all, the old way was better. Just plainly. It had a few problems, but that could be easily fixed wthout "fanning out guns" and messing with new gun functions or ship speeds
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Richard LeMoon on March 19, 2016, 03:37:51 pm
I am curious as to what the attempts to balance are aimed at. Like, what is the final goal? I see a lot of mention of numbers, statistics, and win/loss rates. Is the final goal to give all ships an equal win/loss ratio? Give all guns an equal use ratio?

I think maybe a lot of conflict is coming from players not understanding exactly what you are trying to accomplish. For players, it is all about having fun. Statistics and win rates don't reflect that very well. Player retention is a better gauge of that.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: DJ Logicalia on March 19, 2016, 04:02:12 pm
Loch is super broken. Like, unbelievably so. That needs to change ASAP
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: PixelatedVolume on March 19, 2016, 04:23:36 pm
Loch is super broken. Like, unbelievably so. That needs to change ASAP

What's wrong?  Played a few games earlier and everything seemed normal (besides squid change, and actually having to fight a flak which was great!)
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dev Bubbles on March 19, 2016, 04:33:58 pm
@richard, oh good question, sorry this was not make clear.  Yeah in a way.  With usage and win rate, it is to see the distribution of usage rates of different ships and builds and see how they are relative to the mean.  It's pretty similar to how say Valve balances CS:GO.  I mean, how they balance it in actuality isn't my point, it's more like how they look at stats and use them to deduce starting point and measure goals etc. 
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: DJ Logicalia on March 19, 2016, 04:38:50 pm
Loch is super broken. Like, unbelievably so. That needs to change ASAP

What's wrong?  Played a few games earlier and everything seemed normal (besides squid change, and actually having to fight a flak which was great!)

It's super OP in almost every light gun. Loch L.Flak kills better than H.Flak, loch L.Carro pops quicker than H.Carro, It's absurdly strong in gat and mortar. It's silly
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dev Bubbles on March 19, 2016, 04:46:37 pm
Ok understood.  In summary, the areas that we need to pay close attention to are:  spire, squid, and loch. 
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: ZnC on March 19, 2016, 04:57:49 pm
Ok understood.  In summary, the areas that we need to pay close attention to are:  spire, squid, and loch.

Sorry that I'm repeating myself, but do review my email for Loch. I specifically address the key issue (DPS) in it.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Schwalbe on March 19, 2016, 05:16:41 pm
How can this be called a "Balance" update?


Because AWKM is a Hand Of "Balance". :D
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: ZnC on March 19, 2016, 06:39:23 pm
After much testing, I have concluded that 'Overpowered > Underpowered' and 'Kill meta > Disable meta' in terms of fun.

LIGHTNING DAKKADAKKA
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Byron Cavendish on March 19, 2016, 06:42:31 pm
I think a fundamental issue here is the method of testing, the pace of balance, and the amount of changes.

First, let's establish that the time between this patch and the last major was 6 months. Now, I believe that Muse believes it "will keep an eye on the situation". But when we see a patch go through with bad changes, we aren't exactly optimistic about waiting 6 months for a fix that, may or may not come.

Second, the pace of testing is inconsistent. Like I said, it's been 6 months since a major balance patch. Then, out of the blue, we are given a dozen new, hugely impactful changes to test. Testing is done immediately, and we are expected to find out all the issues with these issues in 2 weeks of testing (no there was not 3 weeks of testing Muse, you need to be there for that to count)? And then, as if in a flurry of angst, as soon as the balance is brought up, it's put through. 6 months waiting, 2 weeks testing. Seems a bit fast, eh? As if Muse woke up one morning, and their balance report card was due that day, so they scrapped together something and rushed it in.

How about from now on, we test 1-2 things, really, really, REALLY well, over a few weeks then put it in. Do that all the time, just one or two things, rather 6 months and 12 things.

Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Kamoba on March 19, 2016, 06:49:01 pm
LIGHTNING DAKKADAKKA

"LIGHTNING DAKKADAKKA" Being the words I was screaming while shooting the gatling on Zanc's Junker.

"ELECTRIC CHARGED FIREBALLS MOTHER F***ER!" Came to mind while stripping spire armour with Hades, within 1 clip...

Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Omniraptor on March 19, 2016, 06:49:13 pm
Ok understood.  In summary, the areas that we need to pay close attention to are:  spire, squid, and loch. 

Please also consider changing the sniper mobula. I can tell you guys want to change the mobula (because you sort of did), but this last gun arc change only locked it further into the one true build of merc/double art.

@Byron while I do agree with wonky test timing- changing just 1 variable not always the best way to solve a problem.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Red-Xiii on March 19, 2016, 07:50:55 pm
Ok understood.  In summary, the areas that we need to pay close attention to are:  spire, squid, and loch. 

Please also consider changing the sniper mobula. I can tell you guys want to change the mobula (because you sort of did), but this last gun arc change only locked it further into the one true build of merc/double art.


This so much.  I realized today my merc/hades build was taken from me.   It locked me into top art and brawl.  Very few different builds are now even viable for competetive for the mob.  There werent many to begin with but at least I felt like I had a choice. 

Skbo showed how much today the loch is buffed beyond comprehension.   Galleons going down in one clip of mortar or less on a gat/mortar pyra.  Thats just..... :-\
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Solidusbucket on March 19, 2016, 08:20:17 pm
Ok understood.  In summary, the areas that we need to pay close attention to are:  spire, squid, and loch. 

Please also consider changing the sniper mobula. I can tell you guys want to change the mobula (because you sort of did), but this last gun arc change only locked it further into the one true build of merc/double art.




This so much.  I realized today my merc/hades build was taken from me.   It locked me into top art and brawl.  Very few different builds are now even viable for competetive for the mob.  There werent many to begin with but at least I felt like I had a choice. 

Skbo showed how much today the loch is buffed beyond comprehension.   Galleons going down in one clip of mortar or less on a gat/mortar pyra.  Thats just..... :-\

Yea, that was me on that mortar. Get wrecked.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Kendra Finegrinder on March 20, 2016, 01:46:18 am
but we feel a certain KIND of pilot could in theory find a way to use this well enough to make people stop insisting, for a while, that squid is the worst ship of all time in all situations forever."

This is false. The addition of pilot stamina has benefitted squid the most along with 950 hull and 6.66 acceleration a year ago. There has been evidence of successful squid usage in competitive games as of late and at one point the current competitive meta was widely considered to be a circle between Mobula > Fish > Squid > Mobula.

For the actual evidence of squid being used well competitively and squid being used in general, refer to Blood and Brass tournament VODs on Muse Games' channel, as well as Cronus Leauge clips. (Prime examples from both: Team Predators in BB and Team Bumble in CL.)

The fact is, squid's effectiveness is tied to the pilot itself making minimum amount of mistakes. Those who can are feared, those who can't are shown as "proof" that squid's a bad ship. Simply pay no attention to the naysayers and realize they're stuck in a baser mode of thought.

In my opinion, flying backwards 24/7 is still as ridicilous as it was before, but it's very much possible to have an easy back-side bifecta whilst being able to rotate to the front more quickly now because you can slide by them with your side.

HOWEVER. I doubt that the average squid pilot (the one who consistently proves it's "weaknesses") will be able to abuse that as much as the vet squid pilot does. So this change didn't actually lower squid's skill floor as far as back gun usage goes.

The fact that that statement is false was basically the point. I agree with you. I was saying that was what the idea of the change seems to be, and the dream is that people will come to fear the spire, but that won't happen due to it being so ultimately pilot dependent. Hence the weird combination of masochism / determination / denial / optimism its most frequent pilots seem to have. =P
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Atruejedi on March 20, 2016, 03:28:57 am
@Untested changes
Definitely want to know which ones we missed. I'm pretty sure they were all caught and tested.

Lochnager.

You can't say you tested it when these lochnager changes have gone into the game and the game is now completely destroyed because of it. I was at a testing session every week. We played. Muse didn't ask us to do much beyond Mikko asking us to "please shoot your balloons so we can test gravity" on Paritan... and that's when representatives from Muse actually showed up to the sessions. They showed up late and not at all at times. Yes, I'm sorry, I'm bitter. I gave Muse my time (I even set my alarm on a WEEKEND!), but, goodness, please use it intelligently. We just got into matches and played as we normally would... blindly, because we weren't told what had actually been changed in half of the testing sessions.

Lochnager was not tested. And if it was... whoever decided to put it into the game has never actually played the game.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Dementio on March 20, 2016, 06:18:04 am
I told them loch light carro will get nerfed the moment they put it out. If loch light carro can destroy heavy guns, fine, but if it becomes better than its heavy counterpart..
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Isla on March 20, 2016, 09:25:26 am
Just wanted to make a quick point about testing.  We have been testing the balance changes for 4 weeks now, each time with a team review of ALL the feedback that was submitted to us post each round of testing.  And the pyra changes have been in dev app before release.  We'll of course try to do better with outreach, but we have limited means of reaching everyone during testing, so we are limited in that sense.  Thanks, Howard

You have our emails, there is no excuse!

Here is a simple process to observe:
Why are we making this change? Does it work with our exisiting players and backers, and our future players and backers? What are the long-term effects on the evolution of the game due to this change; the player-base; economics -- most specifically can we sustain it; where can we go next and what if it fails miserably?

Because you left us guessing on motivations for the changes in the first place, and for sneaking most of that through with no information even to those of us on the dev app, this:

What you should realise is from the player perspective it looks like you are trying to appease new players who complain at you that they can't win, and therefore won't stay -- but you need them to stay so they buy things in the shop, right?  You could, of course, do obvious things to help them stay while maintaining good relations with your existing community. The first obvious thing is to let them play their own levels before throwing them at the rest of the community -- no point me taking on that subject though.

And this:

You could absolutely monetise better than you do.

Personally, I like having to evolve with updates, but that's because, for the most part, you make good decisions, I am just failing to see it in this case.

Isla, a logical-thinker.





Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Solidusbucket on March 20, 2016, 12:50:54 pm
My turn:

New lochnager is overpowered
Old lochnager was balanced

New lochnager needs damage decreased while maintaining every other stat.
New lochnager needs a new name (Supercharged, heavier clip or one of the countless other names your players submitted) and a new icon
Old lochnager needs to be reinstated

Problem solved.

Do this please.

Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Richard LeMoon on March 20, 2016, 01:36:48 pm
There was a thread in devapp forum dedicated to naming this new ammo before it went to release, and leaving Loch alone.

Overbore was popular, followed by Langrage. One uses too much powder and damages the barrel. The other uses odd shaped projectiles to do more widespread damage, which also damage the barrel. I guess it could be considered the hollow-point ammunition for cannons. The only issue is that both tend to cause a gun to be more inaccurate instead of less, but whatever. Fun sounding names for new ammo!

I would personally go for Langrage because all the other ammo names are boring.
Example of Langrage.
(http://www.instappraisal.com/sites/instappraisal/files/appraisal_images/cannon%20items%20(2)_0.JPG)
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: KeijoPertti on March 20, 2016, 02:34:16 pm
New loch needs to be buried under million tons of earth and never brought back. Old loch needs to make a comeback.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: SiepeAssassina on March 20, 2016, 02:51:55 pm
New loch needs to be buried under million tons of earth and never brought back. Old loch needs to make a comeback.
We all agree on that but what was the purpose of the Loch "rebalance"?
Making it a more used ammo because you can't stand the fact that NOT all the things in a game are going to be equally used?
Loch was a niche, hard to use, insanely situational ammo still not worse than any other. Just different. And useful.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: MightyKeb on March 20, 2016, 02:55:07 pm
New loch needs to be buried under million tons of earth and never brought back. Old loch needs to make a comeback.
We all agree on that but what was the purpose of the Loch "rebalance"?
Making it a more used ammo because you can't stand the fact that NOT all the things in a game are going to be equally used?
Loch was a niche, hard to use, insanely situational ammo still not worse than any other. Just different. And useful.

Even then, as niche as the old loch seemed, it actually worked on more guns than Charged ever did. And now it works on even more guns.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Synthovine on March 20, 2016, 05:19:39 pm
Hey, first post to toss in my two cents on the balance patch. As a disclaimer, I've only been playing at length since January, so I'm commenting purely based on the changes made in this patch, having not been around for previous ones and did not participate in any testing sessions.

In general, to me, it felt like changes were implemented around an idea had in mind about which ships should excel in which situations and how particular ship vs. ship matchups should play out. That's the base for most of my arguments for an against certain changes implemented, or how they were implemented.


Squid rear gun move/acceleration increase
I have no issues with the gun movement and it will probably encourage me to use the Squid a bit more often. I've seen very solid Squid play prior to this change, so I understand why comp/tourney players see it as unnecessary, but at my level I see no issue with it. However, with the speed change, you sort of double downed on not wanting to pick a Mob or Spire vs. a Squid in any situation at all. The Squid was already the fastest ship in the game, and with the Mob's huge blind spot and the Spire turning slower, a well-piloted Squid is just way too effective to even consider picking those ships.


Mobula gun movements
I don't mind the top deck movements, but the bottom ones seem wholly unnecessary, or should be scaled back even more. Like others have stated, you've sequestered the Mobula to very specific loadouts in order to use it to the best of it's ability. Guns with 50 degree arcs should overlap to some extent on the bottom deck slots, but you then run into the issue of Artemis overlapping "too much", making positioning much more forgiving. I'll echo sentiments I've seen kicking around that the problem w/ the Mobula wasn't necessarily the guns all being able to hit at the same time, but that it can escape danger and dodge shots too easily because of its vertical movement capabilities. One of the larger threats to Mobulas at range was Hwachas disabiling guns, but with that change stacked on top of the Mob's vertical mobility, you've compounded its ability to navigate one of its threats outside close range.

The Mobula was put into a corner and told, "You're only meant to win these battles, all of these other ones you are supposed to lose. "


Spire turning speed decrease
It feels entirely unnecessary. Again, the change is compounded by other changes made. Being so weak it was already high risk, high reward, but it has now been put into a corner like the Mobula and told that it's only allowed to play on maps which have open space, and that it is not allowed to bring close range loadouts vs. enemy pilots of any competence. It was bad enough getting flanked in a Spire previously, now you have zero chance at all.

Again, with the componding idea, the decreased speed of Hwacha rounds means Spire has an even more difficult time of preventing such a situation by damaging enemy engines or guns.


Pyra health and mass increases
I don't really have too much of an opinion, but added with the Lochnagar shot buff it's too tanky. I've survived a few times where I would've otherwised died with the additional health. Any sort of rushing/close range Pyra build was again a high risk/reward situation similar to the Spire, but the reward seems much greater than the risk now. The increased mass makes it feel sluggish or floaty when trying to slow down/change directions, but it might just be my imagination. The changes don't feel unreasonable here, but even as someone who piloted Pyras a fair amount before the patch, they feel too tanky.


Hwacha projectile speed decrease
It feels unnecessary. They were considered by many to be too dominant at mid-ranges, but I personally only feared them at close ranges and this doesn't change their efficiency there. To me it felt like a gunner vs. gunner fight when going up against a Hwacha. Can you disable their Hwacha before they can disable you? Outside of perhaps a Galleon, that fight is taken care of by any pilot tool to move the ship. It just doesn't feel like this is the right way to try and mitigate that mid-range dominance.


Harpoon
Awesome


Heavy Flak
Haven't played with it enough to really comment, but I don't understand the switch in damage application. What I've been seeing though is consensus that light flak with lochnagar is more effective than the big flak, which is sort of weird.


Lochnagar Rounds
The downsides to its inclusion are not enough to not load it into just about any light gun you have on your ship. A solid pilot can easily compensate for the turning speed decrease, and any engineer can hop off the gun before it breaks and smack it quickly, then resume firing. You can of course try to counter by using pilot tools or having a mobile ship to take advantage of the slow turning speed, but it doesn't feel like that's enough to negate any advantages laid on by loading it. I've yet to use loch in a situation and thought, "Ah, maybe I shouldn't have used this right now, and instead used X."

As others have said, I think bringing back the pre-patch Lochnagar would be nice, and nerfing this new ammo type by having it do more damage to the gun or another compensation.

So yeah, that's sort of how I feel about the changes. In general I'm not a huge fan of them. I'm a pretty mid-level player, so many of my assessments may be off when weighed against the competitive scene. I used to be pretty heavily involved in the competitive fighting game scene, and had to deal with my fair share of balance patches prior to this game, but the community response to nerfs there seem to mirror what I'm seeing as responses to these: if something is considered over-powered or difficult to deal with, completely taking it away isn't necessarily a good idea, but to just tone it down a tad.

It easier to make things that are weak a little bit stronger rather than take things that are too strong and try to make them more reasonable. The latter ends up taking things that are on one end of the scale and shifting them completely to the other, which is never fun if it was at least manageable.

I can't shake the feeling that the changes were chosen to shove ships into very particular boxes and discouraging creativity to reel them away from them. The compounding effect of some of the changes just exacerbates this. I dunno.

Peace
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: nanoduckling on March 20, 2016, 06:27:19 pm
I've asked this previously, but it was a small part of a longer discussion. I really feel like folks would benefit from an answer to it as it underlies a lot of the issues I see here.

Why are small, frequent incremental balance changes seen as less desirable than big occasional ones?
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: PixelatedVolume on March 20, 2016, 08:24:38 pm
any engineer can hop off the gun before it breaks and smack it quickly, then resume firing.

If shooting loch put the gun on mallet-length (or longer) repair cooldown, would it be decent?  TBH I'm a little surprised this problem wasn't forseen by our mighty Hand of Balance, but whatever.  Roll with the punches.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Daft Loon on March 20, 2016, 08:30:45 pm
Another option would be to take the autofire after 1 click mechanic that was tried for the hwacha and apply it to loch along with maybe a 1 second repair cooldown. That way you have to chose between aiming and self repair.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Eldarion Telcontar on March 20, 2016, 08:35:33 pm
any engineer can hop off the gun before it breaks and smack it quickly, then resume firing.

If shooting loch put the gun on mallet-length (or longer) repair cooldown, would it be decent?  TBH I'm a little surprised this problem wasn't forseen by our mighty Hand of Balance, but whatever.  Roll with the punches.

How exactly would this work?  Would this cooldown keep ticking (blocking any repair / rebuild) even if the gun is destroyed?  If not, gunner class will remain completely unneccessary on any ship -- the engineers will just fire loch ammo until the gun breaks, then rebuild with spanner / mallet.

Given that loch gat can destroy enemy armor in half a clip I'd say double the mallet repair cooldown, minimum.  Personally I'd rather see loch ammo completely deleted from the game at this point; Lobbies of Icarus and sniping matches aren't really my play style.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Eldarion Telcontar on March 20, 2016, 08:38:20 pm
Another option would be to take the autofire after 1 click mechanic that was tried for the hwacha and apply it to loch along with maybe a 1 second repair cooldown. That way you have to chose between aiming and self repair.

One way to fix this would be to radically increase loch jitter.  Experimental ammo, right?  Not much time in the barrel to properly engage rifling, etc. therefore accuracy decreases.  The loch gat then only becomes insanely lethal at very close range, which minimises overall impact on the brawling meta.

Actually, the more I think about it the more I like the jitter increase combined with DPS increase per hit.  It always seemed odd to have an enemy ship 3 meters from you that you couldn't take out; this change would simply make it so that you don't ever let the enemy get that close.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Synthovine on March 20, 2016, 08:53:59 pm

If shooting loch put the gun on mallet-length (or longer) repair cooldown, would it be decent?  TBH I'm a little surprised this problem wasn't forseen by our mighty Hand of Balance, but whatever.  Roll with the punches.

This isn't the first time I've seen that suggestion, so it's something I've considered. Dunno if they saw it here and mentioned it in a random lobby, but I've definitely seen it discussed before. However, my response to it is two-fold and I'll explain each aspect a bit.

Firstly, if it were implemented I believe that the cooldown timer would be contingent on factors like clip size, rate of fire, reload time, etc. A straight timer would be more beneficial to guns that could sustain fire for a longer period of time without worrying about the timer at all (gats fit here pretty well), and get their job done before the gun breaks. It leaves them more vulnerable to breaking with incoming fire, but the same applies to guns the way they operate with loch now.

Secondly, it feels entirely arbitrary. It's the introduction of a new mechanic or rule that effects only one ammunition type and thusly becomes difficult to gauge in terms of balance. The same could be said to old lochnagar and the damage dealt to the gun (breaking lights entirely, but it was only really used on a Phobos in the light gun category), but even that paired with gun reload speeds, the repair ability of the pipe wrench, and common engineer positioning meant that it was almost irrelevant as a reason to not use lochnagar.

I don't know the game prior to lochnagar's introdcution (or if there even was a time before lochnagar's introduction; I'm ignorant here), so I'm looking at it purely from the perspective of mechanics that already existed when I began playing. I think when you start bringing in special rules that revolve around one particular thing you're having difficulty balancing, it means that it doesn't fit with the rest of the game and might as well be removed.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Richard LeMoon on March 20, 2016, 09:15:14 pm
Another option would be to take the autofire after 1 click mechanic that was tried for the hwacha and apply it to loch along with maybe a 1 second repair cooldown. That way you have to chose between aiming and self repair.

That was called 'Injection Clip' back when we were testing ammos, and it was awful. No thank you.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Ightrril on March 20, 2016, 10:19:07 pm
One way to fix this would be to radically increase loch jitter.

Might work for the Gat, not for Mortar or Hades. Also affects l.carro very negatively with loch.

I think the best changes would be to

or
or

First option makes a single loch gun of whatever gun choice that bit less frightening over the course of 1 clip.
Second option makes loch more in-line for Gatling and gives more time for the enemy for all other guns also. I like this option as the dmg/sec stays high (typically higher than greased) initially but after a few shots will drop. I really like loch as an 'ambushing' ammo type, make the first hits matter more.
Third option should balance between all guns better.

Of course an alternative is to just put loch back to what it used to be, but to be honest I like it being useful on other guns. Having an alternative to Greased is nice. As I said before, initial DPS being higher in a fight can make for some interesting engagements.

There's also the issue that Hwacha is still just as stupid as ever, velocity reduction doesn't solve anything when close.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Daft Loon on March 20, 2016, 10:32:14 pm
There's also the issue that Hwacha is still just as stupid as ever, velocity reduction doesn't solve anything when close.

I tried playing buff-engineer hwacha the other day and got balloon-blocked rather heavily, knocking 5-10 degrees off the down arcs might have a worthwhile effect without ruining anything else.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Ightrril on March 20, 2016, 10:41:59 pm
I tried playing buff-engineer hwacha the other day and got balloon-blocked rather heavily, knocking 5-10 degrees off the down arcs might have a worthwhile effect without ruining anything else.

That'd work pretty well for making dodging down work a little better certainly. I quite like the idea of adding a delay between the gunner activating the gun and the rockets firing (could be seen as lighting a "fuse", 1-2s long or so). That way pilots have a chance to dodge but also crews (for larger ships) have a small window to be able to disable the gun.
Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
Post by: Eldarion Telcontar on March 20, 2016, 10:44:48 pm
    One way to fix this would be to radically increase loch jitter.

    Might work for the Gat, not for Mortar or Hades. Also affects l.carro very negatively with loch.


    Fair enough.  Was just thinking out loud mainly regarding the way overpowered loch gatmortar.

    First option makes a single loch gun of whatever gun choice that bit less frightening over the course of 1 clip.
    Second option makes loch more in-line for Gatling and gives more time for the enemy for all other guns also. I like this option as the dmg/sec stays high (typically higher than greased) initially but after a few shots will drop. I really like loch as an 'ambushing' ammo type, make the first hits matter more.
    Third option should balance between all guns better.

    Of course an alternative is to just put loch back to what it used to be, but to be honest I like it being useful on other guns. Having an alternative to Greased is nice. As I said before, initial DPS being higher in a fight can make for some interesting engagements.
    [/list]

    I like the idea of an ambush ammo type.  My concern with option 2 is that I think the gunner class remains worse than worthless.  A good engineer with mallet can counter the DPS decrease from gun damage in the middle of a clip in well under a second.

    Fundamentally, an ambush type with high DPS should come with a fairly hefty price.  If your ambush doesn't come off, you should end up with the light guns used for the ambush disabled until at least the enemy has a chance to bring his guns to bear.  If the loch gatling can continually strip armor at anywhere near the current rate then the game has devolved into lobby stacking.

    I'd say one loch ammo clip should strip a buffed armor, if every shot hits, and only if the gun is broken afterward.  There are many methods to do this. :)

    Oh, and Muse, I miss GoIO.  Can we get this fixed so I can actually play again? :'(
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Ightrril on March 20, 2016, 10:59:51 pm
    Fair enough.  Was just thinking out loud mainly regarding the way overpowered loch gatmortar.
    Yeah, definitely the most OP guns with it at the moment. Hades is still very, very scary though, 4 shots of >205 armour damage (Galleon has 800 armour unbuffed).
    Quote
    I like the idea of an ambush ammo type.  My concern with option 2 is that I think the gunner class remains worse than worthless.  A good engineer with mallet can counter the DPS decrease from gun damage in the middle of a clip in well under a second.
    For light guns the pipe wrench repairs 60% of its health in a single hit with a much shorter repair cooldown. Pipe wrench is probably the best option if the gun isn't taking any other damage.
    Quote
    Fundamentally, an ambush type with high DPS should come with a fairly hefty price.  If your ambush doesn't come off, you should end up with the light guns used for the ambush disabled until at least the enemy has a chance to bring his guns to bear.  If the loch gatling can continually strip armor at anywhere near the current rate then the game has devolved into lobby stacking.
    Absolutely agreed, it should be a huge risk but with high reward payoff. Also having another ammo type rather than greased to use in guns gives Gunner more uses too, especially with stamina assisting with the reduced gun turning speed.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Atruejedi on March 20, 2016, 11:24:10 pm
    There's also the issue that Hwacha is still just as stupid as ever, velocity reduction doesn't solve anything when close.

    It's a bit better, but it could stand for a slight jitter increase. If a hwacha gets that close to you, you should be screwed... but it sucks if the hwacha was allowed to get close to you because that same hwacha disabled you from an extreme distance.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Ightrril on March 20, 2016, 11:51:40 pm
    If a hwacha gets that close to you, you should be screwed...

    With every other gun there's always a decent opportunity to escape or recover. Hwacha doesn't give that chance. The only way to get out after it hits is to move vertically, but that requires (usually) a full health buffed balloon, often also a helm tool. If the enemy ship with Hwacha still has the ability to move vertically you just can't get away. It's the worst case of "spam more of this gun onto the loadouts, that works" that I've ever seen. The range half to full disable was annoying, but close is where it's really overpowered.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Keyvias on March 21, 2016, 04:02:56 am
    Hey Guys,

    Just wanted to say we're having a meeting the second after the morning scrum ends and we're going to look at serious problems to get them fixed asap (LOCH)
    We're also going to look at what we want to test next and slower. As people said it definitely felt like we, at Muse, were all quiet on balance and then suddenly large changes. Thank you to everyone who tried out the patch in production.

    Second shout out to Atruejedi for the dissertation filled with great information, evidence, and his own experiences. That document is going to play a heavy part into tomorrows discussion.
    I highly recommend you put that on an open google doc and show off your work with everyone.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Omniraptor on March 21, 2016, 04:31:26 am
    What did you tell them, jedi? I'm intrigued and kind of scared
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Solidusbucket on March 21, 2016, 07:13:46 am
    Im gonna assume, given my many fun filled nights with him, that it contained something along the lines of him informing them of his intoxicated state.  :P

    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Insio on March 21, 2016, 12:51:29 pm
    How about from now on, we test 1-2 things, really, really, REALLY well, over a few weeks then put it in. Do that all the time, just one or two things, rather 6 months and 12 things.

    This.

    Testing one or two things at the time would also make it a lot easier to give and review feedback once the change(s) is added to the game, and gamebreakers like the current (unless you fixed it by now) lochnagar could be avoided. I'm sure some changes would lead to necessary compensations in other areas, but even then the changes should start small and later be adjusted/corrected if needed. Especially when it comes to something being implemented in the game. Nobody likes change. ;)

    I also don't see the need to be so radical with the changes. For example, why not just start by allowing loch to fire two or three shots before it breaks to begin with? Didn't work? Ok, let's try to give it two more shots and see if that's better, or maybe changing the damage output or something else to achieve the wanted results.

    I have no idea if this would take up more of your time, but pushing a lot of changes regarding different areas could easily result in unwanted results due to changes not being properly tested *together* before making it to the game. The pyra nerf is a good example (although on a smaller scale since it didn't affect anything other than the pyra).
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Atruejedi on March 21, 2016, 01:26:39 pm
    I highly recommend you put that on an open google doc and show off your work with everyone.

    What did you tell them, jedi? I'm intrigued and kind of scared

    Im gonna assume, given my many fun filled nights with him, that it contained something along the lines of him informing them of his intoxicated state.  :P

    By request:

    Grab a coffee: Massive, In-Depth Balance Patch Feedback
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_12Iv_pqULb9yDkIal9hyoiMuN_G2aTLGks9mU6r_54/edit
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Solidusbucket on March 21, 2016, 02:58:35 pm
    Wow....

    If you disagree with any of this: dont say anything. Jedi has their attention. Please allow ALL his ideas in this document the chance to be implemented. We may TEST them. If we dont like them, then you may voice your opinion.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: ZnC on March 21, 2016, 03:05:57 pm
    He insta-KO'd me with his wall(s) of text.

    While I not gonna read everything, I think jedi has a generally accurate and fair view of the game. I already lost all my energy doing the numbers for Loch and constantly saying all it needs is Rate of Fire reduction.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Solidusbucket on March 21, 2016, 03:27:10 pm
    I read it all. It is a short read. My favorite part is his vision of a spire rising from the depths of a beseiged fort and providing necessary fire support. Spinning effortlessly while barrages of projectiles decimate an assaulting enemy.

    A mobula, seeking to destroy this fort spots the spire. It begins firing from long range. The spire's own gunners dial in their shots. The mobula's thin profile no longer provides it security in its current posture. It lacks the ability to dive down so instead charges forward, reaching its top speed and forcing the spire to back peddle.

    The mobula closes the distance in seconds and the gunners swap to close range. A brawl commences but not before the spire drops down quicker than a rock, allowing the balloon to protect its nimble armor.

    A squid comes in fast and low. A once brave pyramidion pilot reduced to using a squid attempts to ram the spire. He blows up insantly. The thing is 3 balloons supported by 3 steel catwalks and a few broken guardrails. Poor guy.

    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Insio on March 21, 2016, 04:48:56 pm
    Grab a coffee: Massive, In-Depth Balance Patch Feedback
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_12Iv_pqULb9yDkIal9hyoiMuN_G2aTLGks9mU6r_54/edit

    Can I buy you a beer?

    Seriously though, this is spot on.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Richard LeMoon on March 21, 2016, 06:39:24 pm
    I see a lot of my influence in that.

    The one thing I don't agree on is the Pyramidian mass. It is now only 20 tons lighter than the Galleon and double the weight of the Spire. The two largest ships in the game containing the largest amount of wood and metal (including the guns and engines). Why? So it can ram. I would much rather see it switch masses with the Spire (lending more to the vertical city-defense platform) and give it high acceleration to compensate for the loss of mass and let the engines work for longer under damage. This would give it the ability to give multiple 'punches' or high powered grinding into an enemy.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Daft Loon on March 21, 2016, 06:42:22 pm
    I see a lot of my influence in that.

    The one thing I don't agree on is the Pyramidian mass. It is now only 20 tons lighter than the Galleon and double the weight of the Spire. The two largest ships in the game containing the largest amount of wood and metal (including the guns and engines). Why? So it can ram. I would much rather see it switch masses with the Spire (lending more to the vertical city-defense platform) and give it high acceleration to compensate for the loss of mass and let the engines work for longer under damage. This would give it the ability to give multiple 'punches' or high powered grinding into an enemy.

    Clearly the cylinders on the side of the pyra that look like fuel tanks or something are actually full of lead as ramming ballast (don't ask how it stays in the air).
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: GeoRmr on March 21, 2016, 07:27:57 pm
    I'm just going to email muse and refer them to jedis post and google doc
    10 out of 10 nail on the head feedback
    maybe if everyone emails them linking it some good will happen
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Hoja Lateralus on March 21, 2016, 08:22:56 pm
    I've asked this previously, but it was a small part of a longer discussion. I really feel like folks would benefit from an answer to it as it underlies a lot of the issues I see here.

    Why are small, frequent incremental balance changes seen as less desirable than big occasional ones?

    Because of Muse's method. As they have said, their basis for balance changes are in-game statistics from non-competetive matches. Therefore it is more reasonable to wait and collect more data to prove or disprove validity of your balance changes. That's basically what Howard or Matthew have said, that perhaps they have waited for too long, but basically they wanted X months of time (collecting stats) before reacting. That's why they didn't react to people's feedback regarding pyra nerf. Since community is small perhaps a month-worth of data isn't statistically significant (enough). If Devs relied more on feedback than on stats, they could do the monthly changes.
    Personally I think various patches prove that this way of thinking is ineffective. As some of you pointed out - it makes Muse buff the competetive meta-ship and nerf the competetive no-no ship. Nuff said.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: nanoduckling on March 22, 2016, 07:27:18 am
    That's fine in principle Disaster, but that is why I asked about the power analysis (I know you largely agree with my perspective here but I want to explain further my reasoning).

    I did a back of the envelope calculation on how much data a typical days worth of GoI playing will generate and it is way bigger than any data set I ever get to work with. ~200 players online at a time, typical game time plus lobby ~30 mins, ~20 players per game, so ~20 games an hour makes ~500 games a day. That means a month gives ~15,000 games to work with. I wish I had those kinds of sample sizes for my work.

    I'm not one of the folks who is grumpy that stats play a big role in balancing, although I share the concern that stats are being used without sufficient context. I worry if the stats are of sufficient quality and specificity to do the job being asked of them.

    I also think balancing for low level play is foolhardy, but Muse tell us it is a mix. Well I would like to know what kind of mix. Is it 60-40, or 90-10? Because if the balance changes are going to be almost entirely determined by novice game statistics then my input and the input of other experienced players is mostly a waste of time. I'm happy to help pull the tractor out of the mud, but I need to know enough of us are pulling towards the road. If most of the pulling is just towards an entirely different patch of mud then I'm not sure I'm of much use.

    I would like to know a bit more about what those stats actually are and how big a role they play though.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Chang'e on March 22, 2016, 07:52:37 am
    Atruejedi would like us to know that ramming and receiving rams feels good.

    Sorry. Just had to get that out of my system. It's a good read, and Muse did say they're reading it, so hopefully we'll see it implemented in the near future.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: ZnC on March 22, 2016, 10:07:14 am
    I'm just going to email muse and refer them to jedis post and google doc
    10 out of 10 nail on the head feedback
    maybe if everyone emails them linking it some good will happen

    Geo, Keyvias told jedi to share his feedback with the community. So I'm pretty sure they already know. :x
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: GeoRmr on March 23, 2016, 03:39:53 am
    I'm just going to email muse and refer them to jedis post and google doc
    10 out of 10 nail on the head feedback
    maybe if everyone emails them linking it some good will happen

    Geo, Keyvias told jedi to share his feedback with the community. So I'm pretty sure they already know. :x

    It's about showing that we support it.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Letus on March 23, 2016, 12:31:07 pm
    Jedi said many things I would.  (I really need to email more,) but I'd just add one thing about Squid since he stated he wasn't a Squid Pilot:
    The rear gun change makes it heavily leathal in open maps...'cause all you have to do is fly straight and brake, and unlike Paritan Rumble or Canyon, in the open maps, you don't have to worry about running into a wall.  I know many don't fly like me...I rarely phoenix claw, but the deal is Tar Barrel.

    With the old gun...if you were to use them...it was an awkward position and rather hard to judge, and using a tar barrel for your disabling power required a quite bit of turning and throtteling...as you had to line up your butt onto their face...but with the gun angled slightly, you can keep your Squid Straighter, which allows for easier escape (as if Squid escaping wasn't easy before.)

    This means you can have two Gatling guns and a mortar with your initial pass being an armour strip, only to unleash a pile of tar and mortar practically on top of them because...shooting squids require guns pointing at them...but suddenly, they have tar in their face that they couldn't escape from...and a gat mortar.

    So before, if I was running a gat + banshee + gat + tar barrel, the tar barrel was often a hit and miss as it would form with enough time for a pilot to go "oh shit" and turn away....meaning that a hit was a pass into a reverse into a tar, which could...because I suck...kill my engines.

    I have no clue if any of this is making sense...

    Followed by the speed.  I love the speed...almost feel like the old squid again (though still not the same turning.)
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: ZnC on March 23, 2016, 03:13:14 pm
    Well, I guess premature patching was good since Muse probably got a ton of feedback (and rage) :D.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Norm von Luftballons on March 25, 2016, 09:47:45 pm
    I would hate to see the Mobula lose its one agile aspect and become an immobile weapons platform. If it is overperforming, I don't see why a simple armor or hull nerf is out of the question. Otherwise, I don't dislike the Mobula changes. The outward arcs make Artemis builds slightly less efficient, at least, and the close range capabilities of the ship have been significantly reduced as well. I doubt you could eradicate the "meta" builds without doing something drastic and potentially damaging to balance elsewhere, like making the Artemis a less desirable choice. The current Mobula is weaker and that is enough to wait and see how win percentage results may change.

    And for those like Atruejedi with pet Mobula builds, you can now overlap two Mercs on a wing with an Artemis up top and create a new "trifecta." It's actually easier to do than before, at least if you're not wedded to the light flak as your finisher of choice. I doubt any such plan could ever be considered "good" simply because of how far it throws out the basic repair setup of the ship, but I would not say that you've, ahem, "destroyed fun."
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Richard LeMoon on March 25, 2016, 11:10:33 pm
    The 'Hades Funhouse' build (which has actually seen some competitive use) is no longer viable. It was a very high skilled build to fly with high risk/reward. Also a lot of fun. It was also the only Mobula I flew. Nothing left but boring builds now. So, yes, destroyed fun for people that don't fly metemis Mobs.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Solidusbucket on March 26, 2016, 12:28:35 am
    I dont' see what's wrong with destroying mobula's up/down capabilities if another ship replaces it (spire)

    shit: I would much rather have a spire go up/down really fast than a mob. That thing has a heavy weapon. Do you realize how kick ass it would be to have the ability to do long range WITH A LUMBERJACK. You would be able to DODGE properly  while still BEING BALANCED because of the spires frame.

    The spire is perfect for Up/Down

    I really hope muse at least tries it. it is so fitting.

    please try it, muse

    just alter the value

    I know it only takes about 40 minutes. please. please!
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Norm von Luftballons on March 26, 2016, 01:18:13 am
    The Spire is already fairly insane on close combat maps like Canyon and Paritan. Not sure how it could possibly be made okay to be a vertical mobility monster while still retaining its pivoting ability.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Solidusbucket on March 26, 2016, 01:25:50 am
    The Spire is already fairly insane on close combat maps like Canyon and Paritan. Not sure how it could possibly be made okay to be a vertical mobility monster while still retaining its pivoting ability.

    By reducing its acceleration and top speed capability.

    Now you have the equivalent of the galleon except goes up/down and turns for the trade off of broadside (easier to flank) and armor/hull (easier to kill)

    I see no issue.

    As Jedi stated. It is a fucking turret.

    I'm sure someone here besides me know's the capabilities of a mounted weapon.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Norm von Luftballons on March 26, 2016, 01:37:41 am
    "Easier to flank" seems to be a slightly optimistic assessment for a theoretical ship that could turn on a dime and ascend and descend effortlessly.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Sammy B. T. on March 26, 2016, 02:19:33 am
    A little late and absent but I would like to echo just how on point Atruejedi was in his document.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Huskarr on March 26, 2016, 04:54:17 am
    I dont' see what's wrong with destroying mobula's up/down capabilities if another ship replaces it (spire)

    shit: I would much rather have a spire go up/down really fast than a mob. That thing has a heavy weapon. Do you realize how kick ass it would be to have the ability to do long range WITH A LUMBERJACK. You would be able to DODGE properly  while still BEING BALANCED because of the spires frame.

    The spire is perfect for Up/Down

    I really hope muse at least tries it. it is so fitting.

    please try it, muse

    just alter the value

    I know it only takes about 40 minutes. please. please!

    If I remember correctly the spire should have amazing up and down acceleration and speed lore wise.  The Spire is a Baronies border "patrol" ship. It sits in the bottom of a small valley and waits for other ships to come and then rises to their level and finishes it of. A higher armor value would also be useful for this kind of ship, because if you loose the armor and receive perma damage you won't be able to run to the mechnic shop. The Spire would have good turning capabilities because of physics (just like the balloon) and because it would be facing many fast ships (Anglean raiders should have fast ships imo for raiding and the Chaladonian's developed the squid and the shrike).
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Atruejedi on March 26, 2016, 05:03:23 am
    And for those like Atruejedi with pet Mobula builds, you can now overlap two Mercs on a wing with an Artemis up top and create a new "trifecta." It's actually easier to do than before, at least if you're not wedded to the light flak as your finisher of choice. I doubt any such plan could ever be considered "good" simply because of how far it throws out the basic repair setup of the ship, but I would not say that you've, ahem, "destroyed fun."

    My "pet" build was two mercs on one side and a light flak on the top middle. Now the only option for the top is... an Artemis. Joy. Yipee. Huzzah.

    Fun destroyed. I shouldn't be shoe-horned into taking an Artemis on the top if I want to try a long range build on one side.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Daft Loon on March 26, 2016, 05:28:31 am
    The shape of the spire would balance its being given high vertical acceleration in some less obvious ways too, when going up it cant get its guns to the height ceiling like the mobula can because of the height of its balloon above even the top guns, going downwards it has the problem of being about 30m closer to hitting the ground than it feels like.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: MightyKeb on March 26, 2016, 05:31:17 am
    The shape of the spire would balance its being given high vertical acceleration in some less obvious ways too, when going up it cant get its guns to the height ceiling like the mobula can because of the height of its balloon above even the top guns, going downwards it has the problem of being about 30m closer to hitting the ground than it feels like.

    Speaking of, does the galleon suffer the same issue aswell?

    And if so, does this mean squid can get it's guns higher than almost any other ship?
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Solidusbucket on March 26, 2016, 05:32:29 am
    Yes (which is why squids can sit on top of a galleon's balloon at height ceiling. I think. I don't actually know other than from playing the game.)
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: MightyKeb on March 26, 2016, 05:56:08 am
    Yes (which is why squids can sit on top of a galleon's balloon at height ceiling. I think. I don't actually know other than from playing the game.)
    I'm pretty sure galleons can momentarily bypass the flight ceiling from posture + weight alone, just like how they're extremely resistant to the trade winds.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Kamoba on March 26, 2016, 08:42:32 am
    Yes (which is why squids can sit on top of a galleon's balloon at height ceiling. I think. I don't actually know other than from playing the game.)
    I'm pretty sure galleons can momentarily bypass the flight ceiling from posture + weight alone, just like how they're extremely resistant to the trade winds.
    They can and with a coordinated crew and pilot it is one way to stop a squid blending a galleon, as long as the person shooting knows that they're going to have arcs for a few seconds, a well placed close range blast (hwacha or heavy carro) can save the galleon from the squid, it's only a few seconds window though.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Solidusbucket on March 26, 2016, 01:30:16 pm
    You mean how ships go up up up then decend then kinda level out?  I'm still trying to master that mechanic.
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: PixelatedVolume on March 26, 2016, 05:43:07 pm
    Really gets on my nerves, the way you can bounce like that
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: Kamoba on March 26, 2016, 05:46:37 pm
    You mean how ships go up up up then decend then kinda level out?  I'm still trying to master that mechanic.

    Yeah that's the trick, fantastic when done right (Ayetach comes to mind.)

    Really gets on my nerves, the way you can bounce like that
    How come?
    Title: Re: 1.4.5 New Balance Changes "When Ambush Comes To Shove"
    Post by: PixelatedVolume on March 26, 2016, 06:30:12 pm
    Really gets on my nerves, the way you can bounce like that
    How come?

    It makes it seem like there's a ceiling there.  Muh immershon.....

    Also sibce I forget sometimes and hydro into it then get forced down (I fly Junkers, and the accel is baad)