Guns Of Icarus Online

Admin => Dev App Testing => Topic started by: Keyvias on March 11, 2016, 01:08:37 pm

Title: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Keyvias on March 11, 2016, 01:08:37 pm
Hey everyone,

We are testing all this weekend and we will be doing a blind and non-blind test.
Balance changes are live in the dev app.
After the test is completed we'll release the notes here!

March 12th
11 am eastern- Blind Data Test
Affected Systems

Mobula
Spire
Squid
Heavy Flak
Harpoon
Pyramidion
Hwacha
Lochnagar Shot

March 12th
1 pm eastern- Change Notes Released

March 13th
12 pm eastern-  Informed Data Test

A big thanks to everyone so far, we've made a lot of changes based on your feedback and we think we've gotten it to a very good place, but we want to put it through you guys to let us know how well we did (or didn't do.)
Show up for testing, give us your feedback and let us know what you think!
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: BlackenedPies on March 11, 2016, 01:45:56 pm
Seriously it's time to stop. We've been waiting who knows how long for a balance patch but we're stuck testing the same failed changes for the past 3 weeks. Some people actually play the game and want to see it balanced but right now we're just wasting time. I didn't even bother with email feedback last week because it obviously wasn't gonna happen. Since it's blind testing I don't know everything that's changed but I tested loch and it's WORSE than last week when it was BROKEN. WTF!

I demand a new Hand of Balance (https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=14108) or I quit
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: MightyKeb on March 11, 2016, 02:19:49 pm
I didn't even bother with email feedback last week because it obviously wasn't gonna happen. Since it's blind testing I don't know everything that's changed but I tested loch and

^^ This.

Pretty tired at this point. Changes at the end of last week were far, far worse than everything else you initially came up with. Unnecessary, unbalanced, doesn't fix the problems, ignores obvious solutions, and simply aggravates.


If you want to do something for skirmish, at the very least hire a new Hand of Balance for skirmish because whilst people dislike eric for his idea of balance in general, he is surely not going to go far with it if you're pushing him and the majority of the team to work on an entirely different gamemode.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: DrTentacles on March 11, 2016, 02:42:35 pm
I'll come and give feedback when after I've seen the notes, and played but overall...eh. Guns needs a larger balance tweak than muse is willing to give. The overall death spiral gameplay is flawed.

The "balance" changes that have happened so far are inane, with a few small exceptions. This game does need *dramatic* balance changes, and I think with Alliance, Muse is beginning to realize it. The fix isn't just changing numbers, though that's a part. I've started to come to the conclusion lately that the overall gameplay is deeply, dramatically flawed. There needs to be more depth that isn't simply based on player knowledge. New players aren't intimidated by crunchy numbers. Lots of games require learning stuff, and have crunchy numbers, if you dig deep enough. What's needed is clear paths toward player improvement, and greater mechanical depth.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Dementio on March 11, 2016, 03:27:56 pm
In my infinite wisdom, I just wait for the notes. Despite Muse's reasoning behind blind testing, small number changes are really only noticable when there is an actual test environment, not two people sitting in practise mode trying to guess if it is different or not and you only get environment when playing a bit more often with full lobbies, and with multiple ship changes, chances are they will only be flown twice, after the notes came out, if at all.

I do like their effort in involving the community though, but after the third wave of feedback I would want them to finish the patch. With the diversity of voices in the community, we will be stuck with infinite balance testing and we don't have enough motivated players to keep doing this to themselves.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Byron Cavendish on March 11, 2016, 03:59:58 pm
Every single word, and post, above mine echoes the very core of all that I believe in and the anguish that is inflicted upon my soul.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Letus on March 11, 2016, 04:21:11 pm
if they're in play, then being able to even kill a practice ship with all three lesmok shots at point blank range with heavy flak....
why does it even have arming time...
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: GurasOguras on March 11, 2016, 04:51:50 pm
Lochnagar shot was never considered to be main ammo for Heavy Flak anyway. That's charged. Now it's gonna be burst and trying adapt lochnagar to new flak will make it only worth shit on other guns that use it (minelauncher, minotaur, heavy carronade) while still burst being most preferred ammo on heavy flak.

Now it's not worth to play as baloon popper, only as deadlocker (hwacha&artemis). This patch is only gonna make meta even more meta while nerfing niche choices.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Lyoko Barbossa on March 11, 2016, 10:10:54 pm
Lochnagar shot was never considered to be main ammo for Heavy Flak anyway. That's charged. Now it's gonna be burst and trying adapt lochnagar to new flak will make it only worth shit on other guns that use it (minelauncher, minotaur, heavy carronade) while still burst being most preferred ammo on heavy flak.

Now it's not worth to play as baloon popper, only as deadlocker (hwacha&artemis). This patch is only gonna make meta even more meta while nerfing niche choices.

Did you really expect anything less from Muse?
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Solidusbucket on March 11, 2016, 11:36:19 pm
Sooooo. Everyone in this game (including me) bitches when the "wrong" ammo is used. There is a clear meta ammo for each gun.

Am i the only one that wants fo say "fuck it" and have each gun only shoot normal rounds, buff the normal rounds of each gun to its meta state and  give ammo types that simply reduce or extend arming time/range.

Everyone keeps bitching (me too) about stupid ammos and balances. You know what exists IRL (to an extent)? Propellents. Make the bullet go further or shorter before arming (lesmok/greased without rate of fire change/damage reduction) .





Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: DrTentacles on March 11, 2016, 11:40:48 pm
Yeah. Ammo types need an overhaul.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Solidusbucket on March 11, 2016, 11:44:46 pm
Yeah. Ammo types need an overhaul.

They need to go away. It is a constant struggle to explain to newer players why ONE ammo type works well with a specific gun. What the shit is the point if only ONE ammo type work for each gun effectivley.

Don't give me this shit of heavy clip/greased/incendiary/charged work well with light cannonade (or any other gun). They are all equally shitty and all equally dependant on the situation.

No. Normal rounds work fine. On every single gun normal rounds work fine except for (A. Lesmok to get easier arcs and (B. greased/incendiary/lochnagar to get closer arming time / rate of fire increase (greased)

Oh, and don't give me that smack about Burst. Thats an easy number to adjust to every gun (Artemis / Hwatcha) to make it have the same AOE/ammo count with regular rounds.

Then again, maybe I'm just unique in this mindest.

See, I came to this game after playing a stupid amount of a combat flight simulator. The ammo types were extremely limited. This is because they're based off actual munitions. It did not stop the game from being fun (despite the disadvantage I faced because of my choice of aircraft and as such munition options). I should end my rant now....

I'm still angry about this.

When I started playing this game I thought of all the possiblities of ammo types. Imagine burst gatling being able to hit component / hull at same time (nope)

What about lesmok banshee tearing the enemy up better than the Artemis on Dunes (nope)

How about the mercury ripping enemies apart with a constant barrage of greased ammo (nope)

hades doing massive damage at closer ranged with charged (nope)

what is the point of having multiple ammos?
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Daft Loon on March 12, 2016, 12:15:49 am
I wouldn't mind seeing the arbitrary changes in damage go (burst , greased and charged are all extra damage rounds for the most part but with their effectiveness on each gun being determined by the math of clip size, damage and rate of fire rather than any real theme).

I would rather see ammo with each having:

-1 novel effect that is meaningful on most guns (fire, increased effective range etc)
-1 drawback that is meaningful on all guns


And this is from someone who has spent far too long calculating and discussing the minuscule difference between charged, burst and greased rounds on the light flak, and enjoyed it.


Edit

I think clip size and rate of fire changes are possibly responsible for the main problems. Look at the minelauncher - it has the widest variety of meaningful ammo choices and all of them have their logical effect, probably not a coincidence that the minelauncher is unaffected by those two things and works so well with the ammo choices.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Mod Josie on March 12, 2016, 01:48:40 pm
Hi everyone!
Here are the balance changes as sent to me by the nice people on high.

Balance Changes
Mobula bottom guns fanned out 15 degrees, top guns fanned out 5 degrees—to increase the difficulty of full weapon’s platform functionality without disallowing common builds

Spire reduced turn acceleration to 10d/s2 (from 15), reduced top turn speed to 8d/s from 12—to make it easier for other ships to flank the Spire

Squid back gun turn inwards (towards right side of ship) 40 degrees from 0—to make it easier for less experienced players to use the Squid in normal play

Squid increased forward/backward acceleration to 8m/s2 (from 6.66)—to make it easier for the Squid to change position and react effectively in close range combat

Heavy Flak has more damage moved to direct hit for a 70/30% split between direct and AoE (from 45/55%). Higher clip capacity to 4 (from 2) means damage per shot is reduced (115/50 explosive, from 150/180 explosive), BUT damage per second is the SAME due to increased RoF of 2 shots/s (from  0.8 ), and reduced reload time of 4.5s (from 5), reduced camera shake—to increase ease of use in both range (more damage in direct for within arming distance shots) and aiming (more shots to judge arc before reload)

Lochnagar Shot reduced clip size reduction to -50% from reduction to 1 shot, reduced rotation speed reduction to -80% from -90%, changed damage to gun model so that is deals proportional damage per shot until gun is destroyed e.g. if gun has 2 shots then each shot deals 50% damage vs a gun that has 4 shots were each shot deals 25% damage—to ensure that Lochnagar has use cases after Heavy Flak changes

Harpoon has right click to reel in with increased harpoon force to 1500000 (from 230000)—major feature request

Hwacha reduced projectile speed to 250m/s from 400m/s, decreased camera shake—to give receiving players more time to react to Hwacha volley

Pyramidon hull health increased to 700 (from 550), mass increased to 300000 from 200000 while preserving all other steering characteristics—you said you missed ramming, right?  Also affected less by Minotaur and other physics related systems due to increased mass.

EDIT: Sorry guys, I was given the wrong patch notes. They're now fixed!

Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: BlackenedPies on March 12, 2016, 01:59:37 pm
Hi everyone!
Here are the balance changes as sent to me by the nice people on high.
[...]

Those are last week's changes
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: DrTentacles on March 12, 2016, 01:59:57 pm
Still don't think the Pyra should be a ramming ship. Hull buff is nice. Mobula nerf is acceptable, but I'd prefer a verticality nerf.

Flak change is acceptable.

The fact that you're proceeding ahead with all the other changes, Muse, is proof that you have literally no idea how to balance the game. You have done a beautiful job with art, molding, and coding, and design, but when it comes to balance, and working with the a community, this is your first big game. You've been at it a while, and it has evolved, but it feels like you're stuck right now. This isn't me being insulting--this is me stating the obvious. Have another round-table discussion. Figure out what you want out of combat in the game. Ask the players what they like, and don't like. Set up a poll. Co-Op will act as a band-aid, because it allows you to shift the focus from ship v ship combat to objective based gameplay, but right now, you need a consistent objective and direction for PvP combat. You plainly do not have that.

I really want a mission statement for what you want to see out of combat in this game--what is your direction for balance? Where do you see tactical depths coming from in combat? Where do you see counterplay emerging? What are the strengths of sniping, and brawling, and how should they be represented in guns and ships? What are each ship's strengths, and what are their weaknesses? What separates a novice of each class from a veteran, and what separates a PuB from a team? What role does ammo serve? Does stamina serve? How will each of those be used by a novice, or a veteran?

You need to have solid, consistent answers for all of these for the game to have *depth*. Right now, most of the depth is in the teamwork, which is awesome, and very little is in the gameplay. This is a turn-off for many people--probably the biggest turn-off after the simple "knowledge cap" to play, because of poorly explained mechanics.   

I do not believe you have answers to these questions--if you do, I would be happy to hear them. I desperately want this game to be played--to last. I do not have your in-office perspective, but I have the perspective of a long-time gamer. It does not appear as though you have a coherent balance direction. Please explain to us where you want this game to be. Kevias, I'll probably email, but I'll take a PM. I am deeply concerned about the apparent lack of direction, and would like to understand, and help, if I can.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Dementio on March 12, 2016, 02:50:31 pm
The only change from last week to this week, is the Mobula's bottom guns are turned outward even further. Is that the resulting feedback from 2 weeks?

I hope Muse won't be surprised if I copy-paste my feedback mail from last week at the end of this week.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: BlackenedPies on March 12, 2016, 03:26:09 pm
The only change from last week to this week, is the Mobula's bottom guns are turned outward even further. Is that the resulting feedback from 2 weeks?

I'd like to hear the feedback that warranted this change
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Daft Loon on March 12, 2016, 03:49:57 pm
...

Lochnagar Shot reduced clip size reduction to -50% from reduction to 1 shot, reduced rotation speed reduction to -80% from -90%, changed damage to gun model so that is deals proportional damage per shot until gun is destroyed e.g. if gun has 2 shots then each shot deals 50% damage vs a gun that has 4 shots were each shot deals 25% damage—to ensure that Lochnagar has use cases after Heavy Flak changes

...

This is not the same as what is active in the dev app

-60% clip size
+62.5% damage
-70% rotation speed
-70% recoil jitter
100% self damage etc
-60% arming time
-50% AOE
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: GurasOguras on March 12, 2016, 03:57:16 pm
Thank you for making Spire turn as fast as Galleon now.

It's going to be a sad patch for brawlmob, but it's gonna be replaced by brawlsquid so I don't care that much.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Daft Loon on March 12, 2016, 04:12:16 pm
Thank you for making Spire turn as fast as Galleon now.

And galleon has guns on both sides.....
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Nietzsche's Mustache on March 12, 2016, 08:12:31 pm
The only change from last week to this week, is the Mobula's bottom guns are turned outward even further. Is that the resulting feedback from 2 weeks?

I'd like to hear the feedback that warranted this change

Me too. Especially considering at least last Sunday, NO ONE used a mob. It was mostly spires and pyras. And the Spires still won, not because it's OP, but because the pyra's too damn slow still. Being a heavy S.O.B. doesn't mean the pyra can ram better (I'll grant you, the rams that did take place did do more damage to me on the spire, but they also cost the pyra just as badly because it can't connect those rams before loosing so much armor).

Ugh.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Omniraptor on March 12, 2016, 08:32:37 pm
The pyra needs galleon levels of armor and health if they keep it at this speed. Make it so the pyra can't really maneuver, but it can charge into someone's gun arcs and survive for a bit there. Maybe that will help.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: ZnC on March 12, 2016, 09:28:58 pm
I enjoy the gun-ammo mechanics and logic behind it. If they go, I go. Period. Might as well remove the gunner class and just have engineer and pilot only.

Here's my problem with changes:
Balance changes = Small tweaks to numbers
Gameplay changes = Significant changes in how things work

So far I've seen a lot of gameplay changes. Reducing Hwacha jitter by 33% just to compensate for Heavy Clip. Single click fires whole volley. Stamina. Squid gun arc change. Nerfing H.Carro arcs and reload speed at the same time. Flamer loses penetration completely. Nerfing pyra acceleration and hull at the same time. Buffing spire accel and hull at the same time. Fanning out Mobula guns. H.Flak rework. Loch rework for H.Flak. And more.

In the end, I find there's not much to talk about. Play and enjoy the game however you want, or don't.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: DrTentacles on March 12, 2016, 10:52:16 pm
As a note, increasing the Pyra's hull does not help it ram. I ram often in a squid. Rams are not about damage. Rams are about controlling the enemy ship. If the hull is buffed, and the turning and acceleration remains slow, ramming is still bad.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Omniraptor on March 12, 2016, 11:48:06 pm
Could we please get some clarification on the goals of these changes, and what specific gameplay problems they are intended to address. Especially the spire changes. Does muse think spires are too powerful?

I really really don't understand why they touched lochnagar. Like, why, guys? Just why. Why does harpoon have right click now? Why is light carronade still useless?
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Mysterious Medic on March 12, 2016, 11:59:57 pm
Okay, so instead of delineating why I disagree with many of the changes I'm going to give a proposal.

Revert hwacha to previous state before buff. Revert caronade to previous state before nerf.

Keep the shatter damage for the caro the way it is now. (Also keep the direct damage the same obviously) Keep the downwards arcs for the caronade as it is now. Don't nerf heavy clip. Don't nerf caronades upwards arcs.
Done, hwacha's fine.

For pyra: put health at 600. Revert back to old acceleration. Also, don't change its mass. It does something weird to ramming that has somehow made it easy to knock off your target even with moonshine.

For Mobula: don't mess with gun arcs- it's a weapons platform. Nerf its maneuverability, or punish it for taking damage more. Either reduce it's hull armor to 500, or reduce its vertical acceleration to 6.5 m/s².

Heavy flak change is okay.

Harpoon change is okay.

Squid change is fine, although somewhat unnecessary.

Spire needs a massive change. The idea of "glass cannon" does not really work in this game. All guns are accessible by all ships, and it's not like Spire has a passive buff on damage or something. Give Spire a niche maneuverability to use, like mobula has. Maybe exceptionally high acceleration and speed? If not give its weapons some protection, or give it a slimmer profile. Something needs to be done, and giving it better armor, hull, or otherwise just won't work due to the shape of the thing, and also its less than optimal engineering routes.

Don't touch lochnagar. Add more niche ammos.

These changes are simple, and fix the problem in an isolated way that does not affect the whole system (a problem Muse has had with balancing for a long while).
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: nanoduckling on March 13, 2016, 07:28:16 am
The problem with the various ammo types is they don't really offer interesting choices. There is usually 1 ammo type you should use per gun (a fact which even with stamina largely leaves gunners pointless closing down another interesting set of choices). Where we are selecting different ammos we are mostly doing it for range leaving us with three to four real ammo types, long (lesmok), medium (charged/burst/normal), close (greased/incend/heatsink) and point blank (loch). You could have those 4 ammo types with suitable damage to range trade offs and the game would play mostly the same.

I don't want to see different ammo types go. I want them made interesting. The loch changes look to me to be taking an interesting ammo type (loch was almost always taken as a gunner and was one of the ammo types lending itself to more varied play styles) and replacing it with another potentially interesting ammo type. It is like fixing your handbrake when the steering wheel is broken. We might end up with a better handbrake, we might end up with a worse one. Most likely we will end up with a handbrake some people like while others miss the old one. The steering wheel is still going to be broken. How it will actually interact with the current meta I cant say, making it kind of a pointless risk to take in my book.

So since we are supposed to be using this thread to give feedback, I'll ask a question of Muse whose answer will tell me how I can best be useful looking at the patch proposals. What is it you are trying to achieve with the changes to loch? What is the intent with the other changes? What are the numbers backing up the changes to balance the game?

Folks have said there is a problem with the people at Muse heading up these patches. I'm pretty frustrated too. Allow me to offer up the possibility that there is a problem with the process though. Seems to me there are three basic categories of things you might want to do with a patch.

(1) Balance
(2) Fix an existing mechanic
(3) Introduce a new mechanic

In order of biggest problems to smallest problems with the current patch process.

(1) Continuous and slow instead of the current meta breaking mess would let us shift the meta to interesting places for you. Let your players shift the meta naturally and give it a regular and gentle push if it gets stuck. Once a month look at the current meta for the top 10% of games by geometric mean of MMR and looking for signs the ships, weapons, tools and ammo aren't balanced. Make very, very small adjustments to ship and weapon stats to adjust for any element that is over or under used. 2% here, 3% there.

Do this in a way that enhances the character of the ships (so if the squid is under powered give it better turning or acceleration, don't just dump a load of points into its hull stat). Be transparent about what trends in your data provoked these changes (I'd just publish the statistics used in depth complete with models of the data and the like).

They need to be small because an interesting meta should shift on its own anyway if elements are reasonably balanced as rock becomes popular and people start considering if paper should be a thing again. If they aren't then cumulative changes will eventually even things out if they are made regularly enough.

(2) Find out what mechanics folks don't like. And by folks I mean your existing, experienced player base. You can and probably should consult the odd novice (they would have told you that the mino was either going to be pointless or leave them with insane levels of rage for instance), but by and large it will be those of us who have played the game the most who know where the game needs the most love if it is going to be deep. If you ask novices then they are going to ask for noobtubes everywhere.

Even with what seems to be a novice player fetish you folks still try to balance for them in ways that will amplify the effect of skill differences (squid changes in the most recent set of proposals for instance) instead of dampen them.

This will be more qualitative than (3), so it will require interaction with players, case studies, that sort of thing. I can give you a head start though. The harpoon is broken. The rangefinder is pointless. The ability of crew to bring pilot tools outside of the spyglass is largely pointless.

(3) This you are going to have to do the same way you currently are. On the plus side if you aren't making massive ship breaking changes with every large patch we can give you better feedback on your new mechanics. Blind testing 'there is a new gun' or 'there is a new map' or 'there is a new ammo type' makes sense. Blind testing stat changes when the first thing your community does when given a new patch is fire up ducksoficarus and calculates is completely pointless.

I appreciate the idea of being consulted on these patches, but the lack of communication here is really killing the process. If your inbox is wildly different from the forum please, tell us. Again, numbers would be nice - "80% of the emails we got with feedback loved the loch changes" would at least tell us why you are persisting with ideas which have had a lukewarm reception at best. Why are the balance changes so large? Why are they so infrequent? Why are we 'fixing' mechanics people like and leaving broken others? What is the vision here? Even if we aren't on board with the objectives at least we could then understand the motivation behind these changes which to an outsider simply seem bizarre.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Atruejedi on March 13, 2016, 11:58:58 am
Ssssssssoooooooo... it's noon... Sunday... 12 PM EST... and... and literally the only person in the dev app for the testing session...
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: nanoduckling on March 13, 2016, 12:20:44 pm
Honestly jedi, since the last major patch, I don't see the point. I read the notes from the past two weeks and have given my feedback, but the changes didn't reflect folks feedback then and they don't reflect them now. And it isn't just vet complaining there were common threads last time and this time which are being ignored. I cant help Muse achieve what they want to achieve if I don't know what it is. I suspect I'm not alone in this.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Atruejedi on March 13, 2016, 12:27:52 pm
Well, we have 12 people online... nobody from Muse... so...
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Letus on March 13, 2016, 02:33:06 pm


Heavy Flak has more damage moved to direct hit for a 70/30% split between direct and AoE (from 45/55%). Higher clip capacity to 4 (from 2) means damage per shot is reduced (115/50 explosive, from 150/180 explosive), BUT damage per second is the SAME due to increased RoF of 2 shots/s (from  0.8 ), and reduced reload time of 4.5s (from 5), reduced camera shake—to increase ease of use in both range (more damage in direct for within arming distance shots) and aiming (more shots to judge arc before reload)



...so..
What's the point of the arming time?

You might as well make the Lumberjack do 300 Flechette Direct and 50 Scatter AoE while we're doing this.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Byron Cavendish on March 13, 2016, 02:38:43 pm
Honestly I never saw the point of arming time.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Letus on March 13, 2016, 03:04:09 pm
Honestly I never saw the point of arming time.

When it came to the Lumberjack, it made sense...I was a huge fan of the Lumberjack before the arming time, and basically, you had a Carronade that could shoot across the map...or at point blank range...which...well, really replaced the Carronade.

Now, when it came to Heavy Flak, it kinda made sense...

But the problem now, the Flak still supposedly has its arming AoE, which does a meager 50 Explosive, the Direct does 115.
With a regular round, those four shots will do 644 perma hull damage
Buff vanilla would do 837 damage.

That's without the 50 AoE explosive
The AoE would add 280 perma hull a clip, which, yes, would be great...as that does a total of 852.

So
That will kill, with no problem:  Pyramidion and Junker

If we put in account of Burst rounds, that's 805 Damage, which is just about an Armed Vanilla time.  The Pyramidion and Junker are instantly doomed at point blank range of 1 Heavy Flak
Buffed Burst: 1046
That kills everything BUT the Galleon and Goldfish.

Lochnagar
523.25 permahull damage
Buffed: 680
(granted you'll get the AoE Damage, which adds 162 damage...for a grand wopping 685!  WOOO.  YOUR GUN IS BETTER WITH BURST)

Yeah you're not gonna Loch this gun

Charged
579 permahull
752 buffed

Greased
644
837

Just a solo, it seems that the obvious choice is the use burst rounds since it will do the most damage at any range because you don't have to wait for the AoE.

Double the damage when you have two Flacks on a Galleon.
In fact, the Double Flak Galleon was the reason why the call for an Arming Time happened after Lumberjack did, if you remember correctly.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Lyoko Barbossa on March 13, 2016, 03:27:21 pm
Honestly jedi, since the last major patch, I don't see the point. I read the notes from the past two weeks and have given my feedback, but the changes didn't reflect folks feedback then and they don't reflect them now. And it isn't just vet complaining there were common threads last time and this time which are being ignored. I cant help Muse achieve what they want to achieve if I don't know what it is. I suspect I'm not alone in this.

I will say this only once more. Did you really expect anything less from Muse?
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Richard LeMoon on March 13, 2016, 07:59:02 pm
I was pondering things, and IF the gun angles had to be changed, I would go with something more like this.

20 to 30 degrees on outer guns rather than the current 35.

(http://i.imgur.com/goA1REL.jpg)

In devapp, the side guns are ALL 50 degrees. (35+15 and 45+5) That reduces the number of viable forward facing side guns to Artemis, flamethrower, and Banshee. Barking Dog is semi-viable. Completely removed from viability are flak, Gatling, and mortar (which was only semi-viable). In short, Mobula builds will be reduced to Hades/Merc/Gat main, Artemis/banshee wings. I was told this patch was intended to shake up the meta. All it is going to do is solidify it.

Sending this to feedback email as well.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: BlackenedPies on March 13, 2016, 08:22:47 pm
I'd rather do that but I'd prefer not to touch gun arcs because it doesn't balance and just changes builds. IF arcs were changed that's the best solution
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Richard LeMoon on March 13, 2016, 08:47:50 pm
For visual reference, this is the current setup:
(http://i.imgur.com/r7gl8sk.jpg)

And the devapp testing changes:

(http://i.imgur.com/aq0bERy.jpg)
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Mod Josie on March 14, 2016, 11:34:58 am
Well, we have 12 people online... nobody from Muse... so...

Hi Jedi (and everyone)

I have to apologise for this one. I was asked to run the testing on Saturday because the usual team members were unavailable to take care of it. I wasn't drafted for the Sunday duty and I didn't check if I was still supposed to be supervising. As such, everyone thought that someone else was handling it and nobody from Muse showed. I ought to have checked, sorry about that.

That being said, we got some good feedback E-mails from both days, so thanks everyone for those!
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Erom Gary on March 14, 2016, 01:14:20 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/aq0bERy.jpg)

I'm just putting out my thoughts to the table about the arc changes of the mobula.

I can somewhat see the point here of why they've fanned out the arcs so wide out. I believe the idea here was to encourage captains to dedicate each wing to either specific range, disable power and kill power ect. With the front gun specialising on what one of the wings are dedicated to (as stated above ^^).

Although, you'll then only have two players firing at a single target simultaneously instead of three, which is problematic since it's killing the mobula's purpose of being a floating weapon platform. The only solution I can think of is to remove the ladder to the front gun and instead add stairs on both sides, similar to a galleon when running to helm. Which will allow one of the engineers to have easier access to front gun for a trifecta.

Indirectly from my perspective, this is a nerf. Although this can also be a remake to the ship's core playstyle, and show the new way of how to man and navigate a mobula.   
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Richard LeMoon on March 14, 2016, 02:46:10 pm
It is just a more forward facing junker with less repair ability.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: MightyKeb on March 14, 2016, 02:53:10 pm
It is just a more forward facing junker with less repair ability.

It was always like that, being inherently weaker to piercing/explosive than junker. However, people overlooked this because it was also a junker that couldn't be disabled and could chase you around the map with long range.


Wing-playstyles already existed before, infact this is also a nerf to them because now it takes longer to turn a wing for it to be effective. At the same time, it's a buff to hades-art mobula because now it's much harder to get out of it's arcs by circling around it's wings, and if you just rush forward hoping to end up in the front gun arcs and avoid every other, then you still lose because range.this just limits a bunch of creative options for mobula, nothinjg more.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Omniraptor on March 14, 2016, 06:56:58 pm
Yeesss muse, fan out the mobula's front guns until it flattens so much it transforms into a junker :D
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Daft Loon on March 14, 2016, 07:48:05 pm
(http://i.imgur.com/aq0bERy.jpg)

A couple of ideas:
- Keep the dev-app changes but additionally rotate the top central gun maybe 30 degrees to one side, probably towards the hull side since balloon can be more easily ignored to run to a far gun in the short term.

- Remove the top central gun entirely and allow the side guns to point almost forwards, 20 and 30 degrees maybe
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Richard LeMoon on March 14, 2016, 08:43:22 pm
I thought of those as well, but discarded them due to wonder what drugs the ship designers would have to be on to end up with those designs.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Daft Loon on March 14, 2016, 08:55:35 pm
I thought of those as well, but discarded them due to wonder what drugs the ship designers would have to be on to end up with those designs.

True that
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Nietzsche's Mustache on March 15, 2016, 12:08:41 am
I thought of those as well, but discarded them due to wonder what drugs the ship designers would have to be on to end up with those designs.

Remember that  the mobula was built as a party barge for a princes. I'm pretty sure drugs were, indeed, aplenty.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Letus on March 15, 2016, 03:27:05 am
I thought of those as well, but discarded them due to wonder what drugs the ship designers would have to be on to end up with those designs.

Remember that  the mobula was built as a party barge for a princes. I'm pretty sure drugs were, indeed, aplenty.

They were hidden in the balloon...
that's how it got high.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Byron Cavendish on March 16, 2016, 07:19:12 pm
Well, we have 12 people online... nobody from Muse... so...

Hi Jedi (and everyone)

I have to apologise for this one. I was asked to run the testing on Saturday because the usual team members were unavailable to take care of it. I wasn't drafted for the Sunday duty and I didn't check if I was still supposed to be supervising. As such, everyone thought that someone else was handling it and nobody from Muse showed. I ought to have checked, sorry about that.

That being said, we got some good feedback E-mails from both days, so thanks everyone for those!

I've been thinking about this whole thing, and it just doesn't sit right. It gives a bad taste in my mouth. It makes it seem like Muse isn't taking the testing very seriously. We aren't paid testers, we're doing this because we care for the game. It doesn't look good when we show up and no one from Muse does. I don't even think this has anything to do with Josie. She's an intern, why is Muse even delegating an important task of scheduled testing to an intern? I mean no offense to Josie, but when we're getting near the end of testing, I expect the actual developers intimately involved with the changes to be there, ie Eric and Howard. We need a head honcho there directing exactly how we should be testing, and looking for the exact feedback they need. If the time is inconvenient, reschedule or cancel it. Otherwise it looks like they don't care, or are just hosting the event to pander to us.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Richard LeMoon on March 17, 2016, 04:43:22 pm
The person making the changes should always be there for testing the changes.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on March 20, 2016, 02:35:41 am
Squid changes...giggidy giggidy goooooo!!
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: lanfear on May 21, 2016, 08:34:55 pm
i'm getting warnings from the board software this thread if not this whole forum is dead. very well.

forced tutorial. very counterproductice useful for some but a massive turn off for others. i can figure out from gamplay and the keybinds menu what i need to do. i don't need an overbearing over long mandatory tutorial to get back into the game.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Atruejedi on May 22, 2016, 06:29:31 pm
forced tutorial. very counterproductice useful for some but a massive turn off for others. i can figure out from gamplay and the keybinds menu what i need to do. i don't need an overbearing over long mandatory tutorial to get back into the game.

It isn't about you. It's about the community as a whole. We're tired of players who are too big for their britches.

Consider tutorials akin to vaccinations. They aren't for you, they're for us.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Schwalbe on May 23, 2016, 02:28:30 am
i'm getting warnings from the board software this thread if not this whole forum is dead. very well.

forced tutorial. very counterproductice useful for some but a massive turn off for others. i can figure out from gamplay and the keybinds menu what i need to do. i don't need an overbearing over long mandatory tutorial to get back into the game.

The amount of cancer we are encountering in-game dropped since it's introduction. A little.

The amount of cancer on forum however, as easily witnessed by both your attitude and lack of grammar check (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rdAZ7oATfc) - did not. Which is unfortunate.
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: Hoja Lateralus on May 23, 2016, 07:29:00 am
You mean you have to learn the basics of the game before playing it?

(http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Fry-Im-Shocked-Futurama.gif)
Title: Re: "When Ambush Comes to Shove" -Week 3 Possibly final testing?!
Post by: HelFyre on May 23, 2016, 10:32:54 am
forced tutorial. very counterproductice useful for some but a massive turn off for others. i can figure out from gamplay and the keybinds menu what i need to do. i don't need an overbearing over long mandatory tutorial to get back into the game.

And plenty of people can't. Suggest ways (with precision) to make this more fun for people who pick these things up easily, and teach more advanced concepts to people who can. Then you progress.