Guns Of Icarus Online

Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: Helios. on February 16, 2016, 04:47:06 pm

Title: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Helios. on February 16, 2016, 04:47:06 pm
vet games would be hugely improved if the lobbies were blind pick. mechanically this means you get to see the name of the enemy players and not the ship and the loadouts.

build your team around what YOU are doing, your teamwork, your plan. dont just hardcounter their team in the last second. vet games are being seriously poisoned by these late switch tactics. if you want to try hard and win, great lets bring up the quality of play! if you want to smack down people so you can laugh at them, go away!

actually most games would be improved this way, and would allow for more cool and crazy builds if you didnt have to play the hard-counter to your innovative build... the meta is built around ships that cant be hard HARD countered.
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: MightyKeb on February 16, 2016, 06:38:06 pm
I think we'd rather focus on making vet games an actual thing in the first place, there's no point in making blind picks for a gamemode that noone plays.
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Helios. on February 17, 2016, 12:36:28 am
maybe people WOULD if there was an actual difference between regular and vet
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Spud Nick on February 17, 2016, 12:40:38 am
Most of the vets that want a challenge will sign up for the SCS. The vets that don't just want to pub stomp with a good crew.
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Kamoba on February 17, 2016, 05:23:08 am
Most of the vets that want a challenge will sign up for the SCS. The vets that don't just want to pub stomp with a good crew.

I know many who don't sign up to SCS because of time issues or other commitments who would enjoy matches other than pub stomps. :)

I wouldn't mind Blind Picks being an option for vet lobbies..
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: GeoRmr on February 17, 2016, 07:13:17 am
Vet games should be decided by a coin flip.
I see nothing wrong with this; by the power of Ragnaros I have the power.

Tbh, I wouldn't mind if there was an option to use blind pick when creating a lobby - but only if it was not by default.

Edit: Wait a minute, you're actually able to play vet games regularly? What time zone are you?
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Helios. on February 17, 2016, 01:53:09 pm
it is not as reliable as i would like, but even when it's 'available' it just means that 50 people with a lvl higher than 30 are online. it doesnt mean they are all looking for vet lobbies, in fact, mostly it means that there are some people pub-stomping hardcore somewhere.

my point was that if people liked blind pick matches, then there would be a reason to wait just a minute longer to get into a vet game, rather than now, when it's just a vaguely higher level of play and the opportunity to win a few achievements...

honestly im really annoyed with counterpicking in general, and feel like at the highest level of play, it is too dangerous to run certain ships because they are too easy to counter if you know its coming.

its also more in keeping with the overall idea of the game, i think. imagine that you are flying your cargo through a canyon, and then you get ambushed. your convoy escorts move to engage, but they have what they brought, they can't emergency trade out the galleon for a squid, your ships were chosen and outfitted without the knowledge of the ambushers (if there even are any!) the complete lack of ANY fog of war is not only a problem in terms of making the game (and especially that first exchange and encounter) less tense and fun but also it makes no sense in the light of the larger world and with the nature of some of these conflicts.
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Dementio on February 17, 2016, 07:32:53 pm
I have nothing against it being an option.

What I do fear is that blind pick doesn't allow for more ships outside the Meta and if more specialized ships do get chosen, they may just fail horribly, because the enemy had a team had everything, but the one thing that the specialized ship would work decently against. Now that is the worst case scenario, but it isn't a fun one.
And vet games, the only place where one could afford running specialized ships and loadouts, without allowing said specialization? Maybe some don't mind it and for some that do want it, competitive may or may not be an option.
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Helios. on February 17, 2016, 08:32:38 pm
i feel like the meta is built around the fact that anythign that is too easily countered isnt viable. if the enemy wasnt hardcountering your picks though, they might be very vulnerable, to a very hard hitting class cannon spire for example, where in a game where any seriously specialized ship can be specially countered.

the ships we see now, especially in the competitive scene, are heavy control ships designed to counter reactive ship builds like the junker or galleon. if you couldnt be sure what the enemy was bringing, then you couldnt be sure that your very specialized control mobula would be appropriate, so you might brign somethign more rounded. you might also decide that a risk would be fun, adn fly a ship that is so absurdly topheavy in some respect that anyone with 5 seconds could counter it easily if they brought the right build, but agains't anything else was very powerful (im looking at you hellhound/mine-spire....) Galleons, spires and junkers more generally have very little showing in competitive scene because its too easy to shred them at long range, but there would be some trepidation before bringing a control mobula if you couldnt be SURE no hwacha fish or disable squids were going to come ruin your day.

another point id like to make is that both sides would be equally blind, so balance wouldn't be any kind of issue, except that players that win a lot due to hard counter-picking might not win as much, and that is perfectly alright with me....
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Atruejedi on February 17, 2016, 09:06:00 pm
I would play vet games if this "blind pick" existed. Seriously. That would be a blast.
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Spud Nick on February 17, 2016, 09:32:31 pm
I don't think that most vets will like the blind pick option. Nobody wants to be hardcountered but every likes to counter. It's a big part of the game.

Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Helios. on February 17, 2016, 10:06:12 pm
you are saying people want to hardcounter people for easy wins more than they hate having it done to them? thats a pretty stinging indictment of the vet community...
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Spud Nick on February 18, 2016, 01:12:50 am
Players will use any advantage to win in a competitive game. It's no different in this game. Players will counter pick if it gains them the advantage in a match. Some of the vets will keep the same ship but swap out the weapons depending on the map and the ships they fight.

My favorite ship is the Junker and I will change the loadout depending on maps and ships I fight. I will often fly a munker when I have a good crew even if I am countered. I don't always win but I learn a lot about how I can engage in future matches. I also think flying in these mix matches makes me a better pilot.
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Helios. on February 18, 2016, 01:48:18 am
would it really be so bad if captains had to build their ships and build their teams based on only each other and the map?
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Spud Nick on February 18, 2016, 03:47:03 am
would it really be so bad if captains had to build their ships and build their teams based on only each other and the map?

No it would not be bad. That is what Clan Clan does for the SCS.
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: MightyKeb on February 18, 2016, 03:54:23 am
would it really be so bad if captains had to build their ships and build their teams based on only each other and the map?

No it would not be bad. That is what Clan Clan does for the SCS.

So do Predators. Generally most decent to good competitive teams practice their builds and focus on ally synergy before they really get to countering the enemy because whats the point of countering the enemy if they know how to deal with that counter better than you know how to counter?
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Spud Nick on February 18, 2016, 04:11:43 am
SPQR was the only team that relied heavily on the counter game. The teams that are active now focus on the meta or bring ships that they like to fly. Mobula, Goldfish and the Squid are the most popular ships in the SCS right now.
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Captain Scrobeard on February 18, 2016, 07:58:23 am
I like the idea and I would definetly give it a try ...

However I could imagine that implementing this option could decrease the variety and number of unconventional loadouts because players will more likely play 'save' and well-rehearsed loadouts.
But if it will become a thing, it should definitly be an option for the vet games (if they become more popular) and propably not for the regular matches ... there are many people around, balancing matches by giving themselves a handycap on purpose (swapping ships included) or giving some valuable advice to unexperienced players even on the enemy teams. Blind picks could make it more harder for the players willing to do the balancing stuff in stacked lobbys etc. by themselves. And this is a fantastic thing about this community which I dont wanna miss ...
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Omniraptor on February 18, 2016, 08:42:22 am
Vet games would definitely be more appealing to me if they had blind pick of ships.
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Kamoba on February 18, 2016, 11:30:19 am
I like the idea and I would definetly give it a try ...

However I could imagine that implementing this option could decrease the variety and number of unconventional loadouts because players will more likely play 'save' and well-rehearsed loadouts.
But if it will become a thing, it should definitly be an option for the vet games (if they become more popular) and propably not for the regular matches ... there are many people around, balancing matches by giving themselves a handycap on purpose (swapping ships included) or giving some valuable advice to unexperienced players even on the enemy teams. Blind picks could make it more harder for the players willing to do the balancing stuff in stacked lobbys etc. by themselves. And this is a fantastic thing about this community which I dont wanna miss ...

I actually disagree and think it would increase ship variety. I know many people who want to take their favourite ships but each time they try they get hard countered and are forced to deal with it and fight harder or change ship to avoid being easily crushed
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Captain Scrobeard on February 18, 2016, 12:52:05 pm
I like the idea and I would definetly give it a try ...

However I could imagine that implementing this option could decrease the variety and number of unconventional loadouts because players will more likely play 'save' and well-rehearsed loadouts.
But if it will become a thing, it should definitly be an option for the vet games (if they become more popular) and propably not for the regular matches ... there are many people around, balancing matches by giving themselves a handycap on purpose (swapping ships included) or giving some valuable advice to unexperienced players even on the enemy teams. Blind picks could make it more harder for the players willing to do the balancing stuff in stacked lobbys etc. by themselves. And this is a fantastic thing about this community which I dont wanna miss ...

I actually disagree and think it would increase ship variety. I know many people who want to take their favourite ships but each time they try they get hard countered and are forced to deal with it and fight harder or change ship to avoid being easily crushed

If the majority thinks like that, you might actually be right. If you don't have to worry that far more than 50% of the ships in this games will be more or less meta-builds, it could be a very entertaining game-mode which could actually improve the experience for the players ... as I said, I'd love to give it a try. And I'd also love to play more unconventional loadouts in those matches. Maybe my fears are baseless.
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Helios. on February 19, 2016, 11:23:25 am
my point was that meta builds are there only because they arent easy to counter. you could run a wacky build if you KNEW people wouldnt be dicks and just hardcounter you, and it could work!
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Helios. on February 19, 2016, 11:24:46 am
the meta is what it is in a world where the ships are visible. change that: change the meta?
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: MightyKeb on February 19, 2016, 11:38:31 am
The outcome of it depends entirely on the intention. In a competitive enviroment, or in a pub enviroment where a pilot's goal is simply doing well, the meta builds will be taken more in the event the enemy happens to have a good counter on the other team for any other ship you may take. However, in a casual enviroment where everyone agrees to fly unorthodox builds in order to surprise eachother and play the game in an alternate way, you would be right. But that in itself requires all pilots to be in line with this idea otherwise you risk being countered by the silly meta mob without even knowing.

 Personally, back when Vet games were done often enough for me to catch it, I'd use them as an opportunity to cooperate with my ally towards the game's intended objective just like how I would in competitive. I emphasized on this because everyone in those lobbies were always guaranteed to havea semi-clear idea of what they were doing, and thus trying your best would actualy breed hot competition from both teams. Generally it seemed to me that troll attitudes or builds werent respected very much unless the whole lobby agreed to go 4 munkers or something of the sort. From my perspective, the scenario you're aiming for (Read: One where unique builds are brought without fear of being countered, rather than one where meta builds are brought in fear of being blindpick countered) doesn't really mesh with the intended purpose of vet games and I'd much rather see it as an optional feature in normal lobbies. The problems with vet games have already been explained, mainly touching on how limited it is combined with how optional it is. If you intend to fix the vet games, touch on it's design faults. If you intend to bring blindpicks into the game, that's fine, but that should be the main topic, not it's implementation in vet games. Although it wouldnt hurt to have a vet blindpick lobby, I think it'd be for the best if it was tested/added in advanced lobbies first.
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Helios. on February 19, 2016, 10:14:24 pm
im honestly flabbergasted that there is so much animosity with blind pick. in an attempt to foster the highest level of play, make the game a more purer form of competition. peeking at the other side and picking ships to make their life hard isnt (unless a dev wants to correct me here) a feature, its a bug.

i see counterpicking in general as a courruption of both the game as its meant to be played and erosive to the community. anyone who is perfectly willing to hardcounter pick someone is not going to be doing the community any favors, and honestly in my view dont deserve to win as easily as they might.
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Spud Nick on February 19, 2016, 11:57:39 pm
It still comes down to piloting skill at the end of the day. Even if you are hard countered you can still win the match if you have better teamwork than the other team.
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: MightyKeb on February 20, 2016, 06:48:58 am
im honestly flabbergasted that there is so much animosity with blind pick. in an attempt to foster the highest level of play, make the game a more purer form of competition. peeking at the other side and picking ships to make their life hard isnt (unless a dev wants to correct me here) a feature, its a bug.

i see counterpicking in general as a courruption of both the game as its meant to be played and erosive to the community. anyone who is perfectly willing to hardcounter pick someone is not going to be doing the community any favors, and honestly in my view dont deserve to win as easily as they might.

Did you read what I posted? Nowhere in it have I ever said I dislike blindpicks, Infact I tried to help you align your envisioned idea better by suggesting that you prioritize advanced lobbies first before you implement blindpicks into vet games aswell.
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: GeoRmr on February 20, 2016, 10:53:27 am
im honestly flabbergasted that there is so much animosity with blind pick. in an attempt to foster the highest level of play, make the game a more purer form of competition. peeking at the other side and picking ships to make their life hard isnt (unless a dev wants to correct me here) a feature, its a bug.

i see counterpicking in general as a courruption of both the game as its meant to be played and erosive to the community. anyone who is perfectly willing to hardcounter pick someone is not going to be doing the community any favors, and honestly in my view dont deserve to win as easily as they might.

I just don't like the idea of forcing the blind pick, mainly because I don't believe that it does foster the highest level of play. I'd like to paraphrase Sammy B. T. - We're going to take the same ships every time. Let them hard counter us and we'll still take them, and then we'll win anyway. (which they did)

This doesn't mean however that I'm in anyway opposed to having blind pick as an option when creating a lobby, you make a valid point and it could definitely add some variety to the game. Just don't force it on us, plz.
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 20, 2016, 11:45:03 am
I agree that it should be an option in custom and vet lobbies
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Helios. on February 21, 2016, 10:50:49 pm
vet lobbies arent mandatory by ANY stretch of the imagination. my idea for making blind pick the standard for vet games was to differentiate them from the normal games. nobody plays vet games because its basically just the same thing as a regular except it takes twice as long to get the game started. i am suggesting that it be implemented this way because i know for a fact that there are at least soem people who really want blind pick, and would wait for vet games. ironically the more people who are willing to wait, the less waiting that they will have to do. 

the more different they are from normal games, the more interest there can be. if people HATE it, then sure make it optional, or get rid of it altogether.

in other games when ranked matches were put in they have a slightly different method to how they are played, with the intention of creating either a higher level of play, adding an extra level of strategy or removing some crutch or training feature that is now unneccicary
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Captain Scrobeard on February 28, 2016, 11:42:41 am
This deserves more attention. The more I think about it, the more I come to the point that blind picks would be a big improvement for the game.
Title: Re: vet games:blind pick
Post by: Helios. on February 28, 2016, 11:46:02 pm
right?