Guns Of Icarus Online
Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: DrTentacles on February 11, 2016, 04:01:20 pm
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So, a bit of a non-traditional Hwatcha nerf incoming. The Hwatcha's currently problem is ease of use + effectiveness. Like the Flamer before it, it's extremely easy to use, but takes foreplanning and effort to counter, with excellent disable and hull-damage, along with moderate armor-strip, all in one easy-to-aim package.
To balance this out, rather than changing damage values, I'd make it impossible to fire less than a full clip. Often, good players will stagger their fire, turning the gun into a mega-Artemis and allowing precise sniping. Making the gun fire the whole clip (with the same shot spacing as it currently has if you rapid-click to fire) would give the gun a skill-cap to get a full-ship disable, and make the reload time a larger drawback. If it still proved too effective, perhaps a reversion to the spread would be called for, but I'd rather make one tweak at a time.
Thoughts?
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Sounds pretty cool.
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That's reasonable and would make sense because multiple rocket launchers (MLRs) were designed to fire all at once. An exception would need to be made for when it's broken while shooting so it won't auto shoot when it's rebuilt
For my first thousand matches I didn't know you could hold down to shoot hwatcha
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Are you trying to tell me, that not shooting all the rockets is effective?
What is the year?
For how long was I asleep?
I mean. Shooting only some of the rockets does so miniscule damage, enemy engineer should be able to counter the damage you've done with little to no effort... Same goes if most of your rockets does not hit the target...
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You can easily empty half a clip and destroy the most important part of the enemy ships (i.e. Pyramidion front guns) and just wait for them to be rebuild. Splitting a clip like this to shoot two enemy ships that happen to be close to each other is also a possibility and very effective.
It is also viable when shooting from unprofitable angles, for example, your Goldfish comes in from behind the Pyramidion, a few rockets are enough to knock out the engines while the Goldfish continues to move forward next to the Pyramidion, turns and shoots its front guns with the rest of the clip.
Shooting burst was the most effective when Heavy Clip wasn't nerfed yet, because long-ranging without missing a single missle while holding down the lion-gun-op button was nearly impossible, while shooting in bursts made it easier to aim.
I mean. Shooting only some of the rockets does so miniscule damage, enemy engineer should be able to counter the damage you've done with little to no effort...
The Hwacha, like most guns in the game, does more damage than necessary per clip. Most ship's die really easily to the Hwacha, simply because all components die very quickly, leaving most of the projectile to go into the armor and eventually into the hull.
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Nobody is saying this is the best solution, but it's a viable solution that wouldn't break anything. It might be unpopular but it would increase the skill level of the hwatcha
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I agree 100%
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The more I think about it the more I realize this is my favorite hwatcha balance. It makes sense because light MRLs are designed to unload automatically
https://youtu.be/9P3g8N_u7c8
Email feedback@musegames.com please
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Time to make it email-pretty.
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For my first thousand matches I didn't know you could hold down to shoot hwatcha
I didn't know you could hold down to shoot hwatcha
hold down to shoot hwatcha
hold down
shoot hwatcha
I have seriously learned something today.
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Are you trying to tell me, that not shooting all the rockets is effective?
What is the year?
For how long was I asleep?
I mean. Shooting only some of the rockets does so miniscule damage, enemy engineer should be able to counter the damage you've done with little to no effort... Same goes if most of your rockets does not hit the target...
It's possible to disable 2 ships with half a clip of burst on each.
lion gun op hahaha
The more I think about it the more I realize this is my favorite hwatcha balance. It makes sense because light MRLs are designed to unload automatically
https://youtu.be/9P3g8N_u7c8
Email feedback@musegames.com please
lion gun op
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7xyJOQ0pac
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I'd agree to this nerf IF lochnager only works for one rocket and cancels the rest. Or if it stays forcing the gun to having 1 rocket.
It MUST NOT be changed to where 1 shot=several rockets ammo-wise.
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It wouldn't. The gun would still have 20 shots but it would unload automatically
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For my first thousand matches I didn't know you could hold down to shoot hwatcha
I didn't know you could hold down to shoot hwatcha
hold down to shoot hwatcha
hold down
shoot hwatcha
I have seriously learned something today.
No shit. I seriously just learned this for the first time this week, after years of skillfully and purposely staggering my shots to make sure I was aiming as carefully as possible. My mouse will thank me for saving some clicks now.
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Overall a solid idea, but a couple of questions:
1. What happens if I get off the gun? Can I get off? Am I stuck there until it's over?
2. What happens if the gun is destroyed mid volley? When it's repaired, does it resume firing? Only when it is once more manned?
If it stops firing when you get off, it can still be used to split fire, just much more difficult. If it doesn't stop firing when you get off, then you can have 1 gunner firing multiple heavy guns at once, just with little to no aiming.
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I think making it snap-back to original position and continue firing would be the best solution for the first issue. It would allow a single gunner to man the lower deck of a galleon, but one can do so fairly effectively currently. I suppose it's a minor buff, but only at close-range.
Not sure how I'd handle the mid-volley thing. Probably have it stop firing. I don't think that would unbalance something, while having it immediately void the clip would be very bad against disable.
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How the heck have you guys been firing hwachas this whole time?
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Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click
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Do you fire a gat like that too or what?
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Reminds me of the Day of Defeat trick to use scroll wheel to fire the carbine.
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Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click-Click
Burst ammo, eh? :D But yeah! I'm the same! Although I probably only press it like 8 or so times.
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Do you fire a gat like that too or what?
Spam clicking and no. My guess is it just never occurred to me to even try. Same way you can't hold down to fire the carousel.
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Do you fire a gat like that too or what?
Spam clicking and no. My guess is it just never occurred to me to even try. Same way you can't hold down to fire the carousel.
But you can hold down to fire the banshee?
heheheheheheheheheh
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Do you fire a gat like that too or what?
Spam clicking and no. My guess is it just never occurred to me to even try. Same way you can't hold down to fire the carousel.
But you can hold down to fire the banshee?
heheheheheheheheheh
don't.
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This is a very interesting idea. I do feel that the hwacha is slightly overpowered (it's still counterable, but honestly I think the ammo reload mechanic no longer requiring you to stay on the gun added a LOT to its OP-ness). This would definitely make you really think about where you're dumping it. However, this would kind of cause issues withthe possibility of long-range hwacha, as it can be helpful to fire a single shot to sort of make sure you're shooting in the right place, especially since the heavy clip nerf. Forcing you to dump the whole clip would make it a lot harder, when long-range hwacha was already nerfed with the heavy clip nerf, even with the reduced recoil. Long range hwacha does not need to be nerfed further. The issue is close range.
Another idea I had for a hwacha nerf is to simply reduce the AoE a little bit, requiring slightly more skill and precision to disable a whole ship. If you do just fire single hwacha rockets and watch the ensuing hit markers you can see just how insane the AoE is and how far the damage spreads from just one rocket. It means you barely have to be accurate at all — as long as you hit somewhere on the ship, you are likely to disable a bunch of stuff even if you didn't directly hit any of that stuff.
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Currently, every gun and ship is balanced around two weapons--the Artemis, and the Hwatcha. They're the most powerful weapons--in terms of their effect on the game, not their actual numbers, and they're what the current competitive meta revolves around. I'll probably write a longer balance post soon about the shape of the meta, but I finally figured out what's bothering me so much about how the Meta has shaped up recently. Both of those guns need to be looked at and re-balanced or it's just going to stagnate at mid-range disable, and ships that work well against mid-range disable.
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The Artemis is not over powered, it is strong in competitive meta because people know how and when to use it, but it does not shoot up, it is slow for use in brawler situations and revolves around skilled use, if used wrong or shot badly, it is near to ineffective, which is why its rare in pub matches.
Hwacha is the opposite, put the wrong ammo in the gun, use it badly and it can still be devastating.
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The Artemis is far, far too efficient at killing ships for the amount of disable it puts out. It also does not require nearly as much skill to use as people claim. This doesn't mean that it requires *no* skill, but basically any player that flies and practices competitive can use an Artemis to roughly equivalent effectiveness. The fact that it's incredibly efficient at both disabling and killing chokes a great many ships out of the meta.
The Guns community has a warped view of "skill cap" when it comes to a lot of things, because Guns has a somewhat high skill floor, but many aspects have a low skill ceiling. In addition, a lot of the skill floor is simply based on a large amount of information to take in, rather than muscle memory or mechanical skill. Thus, we look at novices and claim anything they *can't* do requires skill, instead of comparing ourselves to people with competency, and trying to figure out what the exact differences between a "competent" Artemis gunner, and a "great" Artemis gunner.
(Edit: I understand Artemis is beloved by many high-level players, because it's a weapon that rewards proficiency, something that is relatively uncommon in GOI. Its arcs make it fun to play around with, and it fits into most ship build seamlessly. However, the fact that it does so much, so well, chokes a lot of other option out of viability. It doesn't have to be dominatingly over-powered to be unhealthy. As with the hwatcha, it is far easier to execute a mid-range Artemis based strategy than it is to execute one that counters it. The Hwatcha is a problem at all skill brackets, the Artemis is only a problem when you start reaching competency-level skill brackets. So yeah. Maybe attacking some sacred cows, here, and I'll be honest--I prefer brawler-meta to midrange. But everything is massively disable-focused now, and that's a problem.)
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The Artemis has too many weaknesses and like other weapons has strengths, it is effective at range from up high, the drawbacks to this means it is less efficient at close range (due to turn speed) and keeping the higher ground more often than not means being a more visible target to the enemy.
If Artemis is as over powered as you think it is, I wouldn't have been one of the very few pilots to have chosen Artemis over mortar when I flew pyramidion competitively and the only reason I could afford to make that choice was because I had astounding Artemis shooters on my ship, more often than not the meta choice was mortar, with the exception of mobula, on which case the Artemis is choice for range and arcs.
My guess, you're not keeping the high ground against Artemis users, or you're trying to outsnipe them with a less proficient crew or loadout.
It can be used to disable and kill but not to the point it is over powered, any time someone with an Artemis gets an armour break, it is very viable to hydro dodge their shots.
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I really need to get that longer balance post out about the Mob and Artemis, but I'll do a quick TL:DR.
This isn't about me. I am well aware of how to counter an Artemis. I can't always pull off those counters, but a large part of that problem is I haven't had regular practice in ages. However, I'm looking at this from a broad perspective that encompass every tournament and SCS since the Pyra and Carronade were nerfed, which was what allowed the Artemis to become the new meta. The fact that counters exist does not make something balanced, once again. The Artemis keeps ships that depend on heavy guns at a severe disadvantage, and it's far from a useless weapon at close-range, with it's enormous arcs. There's really only one ship that can truly take advantage of it's slow turn speed and vertical limitation--the Squid, and that's the other ship that suddenly became part of the meta.
GOI is a game of "Death Spirals." Damage you take reduces your ability to output firepower, because of limited manpower and need for repairs. Disable weapons need to be carefully looked at, because they, above all other weapons, can break that balance, because they both cause damage, and further limit firepower by forcing rebuilds.
Height is another factor that is...of an interesting nature. The fact that maps have incredibly diverse high-ceilings is bad for balance when it comes to vertical combat.
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GOIO isn't hard. The artemis is simple to master with its perfectly straight shot at 575 m/s. The average first person shooter player has no problem with the "hard" guns like hades and lumberjack. We even say that the hardest gun is the mine launcher which only requires two skills: knowing ranges and leading 3 seconds. You don't even have to hit them! Mines impact 20 meters away which is almost 2/3 the length of a squid...
Difficulty in this game is vastly overstated
Artemis isn't good at killing. Over 40% of the time is spent reloading which gives it only 38.3 hull dps. Mobula hull takes 5 seconds to rebuild so your effective damage per armor break is less than 200 vs a mob. I bring artemis on only one of my common played builds (hwatcha spire) because its so poor at killing. But its great at disabling
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The trick with Artemis is how many you can bring to bear. There are definitely better weapons to outright kill. The Artemis shines because its reliable (its so easy to hit you can expect to get close to max dps, dpc, dpb etc..) and because it's easy to get into arc. And once you get three or four of them on a target, the enemy ship is so disabled you have all the time you need to kill them. That's why hades/double Artemis is such a scary combination.
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+100
This is an awesome idea, Dr Tentacles