Guns Of Icarus Online

Community => Community Events => Topic started by: Spud Nick on February 10, 2016, 01:20:09 am

Title: SCS Timer
Post by: Spud Nick on February 10, 2016, 01:20:09 am
Is the SCS more enjoyable to play and watch with the 20 minute timer? Has it changed how you fight in the SCS with your team? I want to hear your thoughts.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Newbluud on February 10, 2016, 01:38:50 am
It's necessary but it makes it viable for people to play the timer, something I personally find shitty. I mean, it's fair, but just being a bad sport imo.

The other thing is the coin flip system in the event of a 0-0 tie. That is just not good enough in my opinion.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Skrimskraw on February 10, 2016, 03:47:24 am
it puts the event beneath the roughly 3 hour marker :) I like that a lot.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Spud Nick on February 10, 2016, 04:43:29 am
it puts the event beneath the roughly 3 hour marker :) I like that a lot.


I do too. I love playing GOIO but I got other things to do on Sunday.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 10, 2016, 07:25:39 am
The only thing I don't like about the timer is when two ships are brawling less than 300m away. It doesn't make sense to stop combat and declare a winner, but it makes the rules simpler
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Solidusbucket on February 10, 2016, 09:28:41 am
I like the timer. It adds a nice element of strategy and keeps the game short.

I do not like the coin flip rule for a 0-0 but I do not have any other alternatives. It is a fair rule.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Fynx on February 10, 2016, 11:05:45 am
There was already plenty of discussions about this in some older threads.

To keep it short, it's a lesser evil. Working out some more complicated rules is, well, complicated. And it's a problem when "both teams decide that sniping from their spawn is their preferred tactics" for first two hours of the game...
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Newbluud on February 10, 2016, 06:33:25 pm
The issue with coming up with another system other than coin flip is it could create a disadvantage in bringing certain ships. For example, if you go by which team has the most perma left, ships like the squid and the fish are much more likely to have dropped their hull and survived, meaning the junker would have an advantage in a lot of these circumstances. Equally, perma is not represented numerically so it would have to be done on percentage, which is unfair to those ships with less overall health.

Additionally, this doesn't cover the rare instance where no perma damage goes down for the entire match. A judge's decision would require an entirely new points system to be created just for this rare circumstance, and would also require a huge workload for the referee and opens the floor for potentially subjective criteria for who wins, which is a dangerous road to go down. At present, there really is no way to make this fair. Quite frankly, the coin flip really is a punishment for teams that adopt an overly passive role. To take a 50/50 gamble on who wins the whole thing regardless of who maintains advantage encourages teams to take more risks and actually make at least a small attempt to be aggressive.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Hunter. on February 10, 2016, 07:22:44 pm
The only change I'd like to see is something similar to how in Football, if there is currently action the game will play on until the ref deems the match as over.

Pros:
Exciting combat is kept up,
Nerf to playing the clock,
Keeps to time limit, since most brawls will be over quick

Cons:
Subjective decision making by the referee,

So the 4 rules I would like to put forward for consideration:
"If the match timer runs out, however the Referee still deems the match as "in combat" (same rules as pausing), there is an additional 90 seconds of overtime before the match must end. This time can end prematurely if combat ends."

"If the match timer runs out, however the Referee still deems the match as "in close combat" (short range engagement in progress), the match plays on until combat ends."

"If the match timer runs out, however the Referee still deems the match as "in close combat" (short range engagement in progress), the match plays on with 1 minute of overtime, this can end prematurely if combat is deemed as finished."

"If the match timer runs out, and scores are drawn, however the Referee still deems the match as "in close combat" (short range engagement in progress), the match plays on until combat is deemed over, if the match is still at a tie by the end of combat, proceed with standard rules."

I hope one of these, or a combination will fix one of my only critiques with the timing system - that intense and interesting combat can be cut short by a timer.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 10, 2016, 07:35:46 pm
Many systems use overtime and I'd like to see it in SCS. The definition of a close engagement could under 500-300 meters. Overtime more accurately determines the outcome and it puts the losing team at an initial disadvantage because they have to charge before timer ends

The problem with overtime is that it adds rules. If there were overtime it would need to be a simple objective decision by the ref. +30 seconds when two ships are engaging 300m away
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Newbluud on February 10, 2016, 07:39:53 pm
I like the idea of the overtime because it stops teams basically tanking an assault hard in order to maintain first kill advantage in the event of a tie. This prevents a ship that is guaranteed to die eventually from eking out the timer just long enough to be saved and win the match.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Solidusbucket on February 10, 2016, 11:58:52 pm
I disagree with the overtime.

I feel like it would be too subjective and open to disagreements. I also feel like it diminishes the strategy of the timer. Time management is an important aspect of combat, especially vehicular and more especially to air vehicles.

 I do not like the idea of being able to rush in at the last 30 seconds to declare in close combat after a first kill advantage team has held their ground for however long.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Skrimskraw on February 11, 2016, 03:34:28 am
the general idea is to not overburden referees with rules, so that they make less mistakes.

we've been waiting for almost 2.5 years for ingame changes to help these things ;)
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Spud Nick on February 11, 2016, 09:14:59 am
The only thing I don't like about the timer is that a team can win a match by running away from a fight (As long as they get the first kill) This was not the goal of the timer. The goal was to have faster matches so players could participate in the event and still have the rest of the day to chill.

I would like there to be a coin toss deciding the winer of the match in case of a time out (reguardless of the score) This would encourage teams to be more agressive and fight to the death in order to secure the 5 kill victory. The matches would be more entertaining to watch and to play.


Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Guagadu on February 11, 2016, 09:45:25 am
The only thing I don't like about the timer is that a team can win a match by running away from a fight (As long as they get the first kill) This was not the goal of the timer. The goal was to have faster matches so players could participate in the event and still have the rest of the day to chill.

I would like there to be a coin toss deciding the winer of the match in case of a time out (reguardless of the score) This would encourage teams to be more agressive and fight to the death in order to secure the 5 kill victory. The matches would be more entertaining to watch and to play.

The problem I see with that is that if a team is down 4-0, they could just run down the timer and have a 50% chance of winning.

Maybe the problem lies in the fact that the players know the time. They see that the match is almost over, and then run away from a fight. Due to the fact that players have the ability to set their own approximate timer, there is no way to get around this, though.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Solidusbucket on February 11, 2016, 09:53:04 am
I feel like running away is a nice touch though. It adds depth and strategy to both sides. It may get a little bland for viewers but the matches remain interesting and suspenseful for the team racing the clock to locate and ambush the enemy and the team trying to set up in a good defensive posture.

I enjoy SCS and I like the current rules. Wanting 5 kills each match offers no versatility.

Combat is not always going to achieve desired results. There is nothing wrong with settling for a single confirmed kill and falling back.

I would honestly like if SCS rules were standard or at least an option choice in public matches. Whoever created them did a fine job. They are simple and offer a tremendous amount of options / situations. Likewise, I feel like the 20 minute limit is fair for gameplay.

Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Lueosi on February 11, 2016, 11:10:45 am
Do you guys remember when the timer was increased each hull break during overtime up to Xmin? I don't quite remember why it got discarded but I think it was just to simplify the rules. If we add something like overtime or so, then I don't like to limit it to close range but rather to hull breaks or something similar independent of ranges.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Hunter. on February 11, 2016, 05:30:20 pm
Do you guys remember when the timer was increased each hull break during overtime up to Xmin? I don't quite remember why it got discarded but I think it was just to simplify the rules. If we add something like overtime or so, then I don't like to limit it to close range but rather to hull breaks or something similar independent of ranges.

I expected people to have a problem with the "close range favoritism", that's why I created the 1st drafted rule with long range in mind - additionally, it follows pause rules so would be easy to reinforce.

I do like the hull break idea a LOT though! Easy to referee, easy for both teams to see, no bias towards play style.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Spud Nick on February 12, 2016, 02:46:00 pm
I would like to have 10 minutes of over time if the ships are spotted or in a engagement. That way the team that is down in points can still play agressive and get a few kills to win the match. The team that is up in points can run away from the fight and lose there spots to win the match.

Once over time starts both teams will have 10 mins to fight. If no spots are maintaned and no engagement happens in that 10 mins the match is over and the team with the most points(kills) wins.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Solidusbucket on February 12, 2016, 03:17:34 pm
I actually agree with this, Spud.

I would like if the ref could call overtime based on the situation.

I actually disagree with the spot being necessary but it does keep the rules controlled.


I will use our SCS match as an example. The match should have continued after we broke your Northwest hard defensive posture and got the kill. You gave chase. Overtime would have been warranted.

I disagree with 10 minutes though. It should only be 2
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Spud Nick on February 12, 2016, 03:42:36 pm
I actually agree with this, Spud.

I would like if the ref could call overtime based on the situation.

I actually disagree with the spot being necessary but it does keep the rules controlled.


I will use our SCS match as an example. The match should have continued after we broke your Northwest hard defensive posture and got the kill. You gave chase. Overtime would have been warranted.

I disagree with 10 minutes though. It should only be 2

The idea about the spots were to keep it in line with the pause rules.The timer could be 10 mins or less. Would 5 mins be enough time to kill two ships?
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 12, 2016, 04:00:54 pm
10 mins is quite a long time and would add to the overall length of SCS. It would also let teams continue ranged engagements which can last forever. The idea of overtime should be letting teams finish combat without dragging out the match. I'd say 5 mins is too long and the max should be 3
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Solidusbucket on February 12, 2016, 05:06:59 pm
Yes, I agree with blackened. I actually think 3 minutes is too long.

2 minutes should be max.

It does not take long to kill a ship.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Spud Nick on February 13, 2016, 01:17:38 am
If everybody is in favor of overtime we could make a new thread with a poll. Let the community decide how long the overtime should be.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: MightyKeb on February 13, 2016, 06:59:19 am
I'd support it.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Lueosi on February 13, 2016, 07:11:36 am
How do we decide when to go into overtime? Always when tied? "Engagement" happening? Ships spotted?
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Hunter. on February 13, 2016, 07:19:00 am
How do we decide when to go into overtime? Always when tied? "Engagement" happening? Ships spotted?

Engagement/Ties
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Dementio on February 13, 2016, 07:46:12 am
I am fine to live without overtime.

The rules for overtime will probably be the same as for pause, which means some refs will call overtime and some won't because when is a sniping duel at >1km an engagement and when not.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Spud Nick on February 13, 2016, 09:31:13 am
How do we decide when to go into overtime? Always when tied? "Engagement" happening? Ships spotted?

Overtime will take place when the 20 minute timer has ended and no team has 5 kills. Overtime will start and last for (Blank) minutes allowing teams to run or fight. The team with the most kills at the end of overtime wins.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Solidusbucket on February 13, 2016, 09:34:20 am
How do we decide when to go into overtime? Always when tied? "Engagement" happening? Ships spotted?

TLDR at bottom.

This is the issue. It is very subjective.

Kinda like in soccer/football (maybe not professional) how time wont generally be called while a team is attacking. It is called after the ball is cleared.

Of course the ability to call this overtime is because refs calculate all the non playing time then use that as their excuse to continue play.

Regardless it is subjective. Making the call is going to favor one team. People will potentially get mad at the ref. The ref may make a bad call.

There is no set in stone rule to call overtime. Just a general guideline to keep the action going. Once it is gone then game over.

It is all situational. We could talk all day about situation X vs Y abd not get anywhere.

The overtime rule could ruin SCS beecause of disagreements.

The rules right now are fair. There is no grey area.

Maybe make overtime an optional choice at first. Test the waters.

Tldr
Make overtime like soccer/football.
Overtime calls will be subjective.
Overtime should be used to keep the action going. No action= let timer run out.
Action is subjective.


Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Spud Nick on February 13, 2016, 10:23:50 am
The main goal behind overtime is to give the team that wants to fight a chance to win the match. It's really not that hard to add a few minutes after the 20 minute timer is finished.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 13, 2016, 03:08:10 pm
I've been in and seen plenty of matches that were seconds from a kill. My original suggestion was 30 seconds because that would've been enough to change the outcome. An extra minute or two with the same rules as a ref calling a pause would be a good overtime
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Lueosi on February 13, 2016, 05:25:18 pm
Ok, let's try it next week: 3min overtime in case of running engagement when the timer runs out.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: BlackenedPies on February 13, 2016, 05:30:58 pm
Ok, let's try it next week: 3min overtime in case of running engagement when the timer runs out.

Including when the game isn't tied?
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Lueosi on February 13, 2016, 05:32:48 pm
Yes.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: DJ Logicalia on February 14, 2016, 08:24:23 am
I'm excited to see how this works. I'm optimistic that this could be a good change
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Kamoba on February 14, 2016, 08:54:18 am
I'm excited to see how this works. I'm optimistic that this could be a good change

Optimism is the doorway to disappointment, go in pessimistic and come out pleasantly surprised...
It was a guns player who taught me that.. XD
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Richard LeMoon on February 14, 2016, 12:58:28 pm
I would personally go with a 10 second retroactive 'idle' countdown after time is up in the case of a tie or heavy combat where the tide could turn. If the battle looks close as the timer runs out, the fight continues until there is 10 seconds of idle time (no major damage being dealt to a ship that could possibly kill it in the next ten seconds).

This would basically be a 'players in motion' or 'ball in the air' type of rule set.
Rules would be:

1. In the case of a tie, combat will continue if both teams are active players in heavy combat and have an equal number of ships in the air. If either team breaks off and combat stops for 10 seconds, the match is decided by a random toss.

2. In the case of a tie while combat is idle and both team have an equal number of ships in the air, the match is decided by a random toss.

3. In the case of a tie while combat is idle as time runs out and one team has an more ships in the air, that team is declared the winner.

3. If teams are separated by 1 point, combat will continue ONLY if the team with fewer points has both ships in heavy combat (dealing large amounts of ship-killing damage) and is in a position to score two points. If they only score one point and tie before idle combat, the other team wins without a random toss.

Subset rules.

Heavy combat shall be defined as something that could kill a ship in its current state in 10 seconds or less. Otherwise, it is strategic combat.
Disabling guns or engines does not count as heavy combat.
Popping balloons does not count as heavy combat unless the target ship is on the ground with armor down.
Random toss could be flipping a coin or sending the official a 'rock-paper-scissors' call in a PM.
The time extension ONLY APPLIES to ships currently engaged in heavy combat when the 20 minute timer runs out.
Ships that respawn after 20 minutes is up may NOT rejoin combat.
If a ship is in respawn countdown when the 20 minute timer run out, it may NOT rejoin combat.
If is ship is not in active combat when the 20 minute timer runs out (even if it's ally is), it may NOT engage in combat.
If a ship leaves combat (takes or deals no damage for 10 seconds) it must leave the combat area and may not engage in combat.
Breaking these rules decides the tie and forfeits the match.



That would feel more fair to me, though I generally only sub for these matches.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: sparklerfish on February 14, 2016, 01:53:52 pm
I understand the need for a timer to keep the SCS from lasting all day, but I HATE that "running the timer" has become a strategy.  It's not just boring for the viewers, it's boring for the participants.  Flying around the map looking for the other team is so mindless and stupid.  It feels like a waste of my time.  I sign up because I want to play Guns of Icarus and I want to shoot airships, not play a game of hide-and-seek.  It actually makes the matches take LONGER because teams WANT it to go to the end of the time rather than actually fighting and letting someone take a kill.

I've also been in plenty of matches that were clearly about to end during an engagement but the timer ran out before it could come to its natural end, which felt sort of antithetical to the point of having the timer.  I definitely like the idea of treating it the way pauses are — not ending when you are in the middle of an engagement.

As for things being "subjective" — is that not WHY we have a referee?  If things were completely cut and dry all the time and exactly obvious we could just govern ourselves in matches.  We have referees to make those calls because they are theoretically objective and impartial and able to make decisions for us.  "People might get mad at refs" is a terrible reason to not implement a rule.  People get mad at refs in sports all the time.  Sometimes a call is in your favor, sometimes it is not, and people are always going to get mad if it's not in their favor.  That doesn't mean that the rule is bad or the ref is wrong.

Anyhow, I look forward to seeing how overtime will work in future SCSs and I'm glad people are willing to give it a shot!
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Lueosi on February 18, 2016, 02:54:23 pm
New extended ruleset for overtime:
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Hunter. on February 18, 2016, 04:10:19 pm
New extended ruleset for overtime:
  • if there is a running engagement (same definition as for pause calling) when the normal game time runs out, the game will continue in overtime
  • overtime lasts at maximum 3min
  • overtime ends when the engagement ends

Huzzah!

We did it, viva la revolution
(http://www.warlordgames.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/edgehill.jpg)
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Areus on February 20, 2016, 09:44:38 am
I'd say yes on both counts, especially from a spectator's perspective.

The patience contest that so many vet lobbies end up in, especially on less... carefully thought out maps like Canyon Ambush, is enough that if it became the norm I'd probably drop out of competitive play. I do find it dubious that games can be won with 1 kill and a lot of running away, but since people are (oddly) less prone to exploiting that than they are camping all the live long day, it hasn't become a significant issue to date.

This is doubly true as a spectator where low-action games don't even have the tension they would as a player simply because (A) the spectator has nothing to do while they wait and (B) the stakes and tension are, for them, far lower. Even some of the 20-minute bouts on maps like Dunes can grow tiresome from a spectator's perspective.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: -SkBo- Skylord Bobo on February 21, 2016, 03:26:15 am
Another possible solution looking into the future is changing the tournament format.


One of the maps in Cronus is Labyrinth, the king of the hill format solves many of the problems we are facing because it...

1. Effectively sets a time limit to the game (though a timer may still be useful, it would not be nearly as necessary)

2. it eliminates the massive disadvantage from loosing the first engagement, because there is no first kill advantage the second engagement is just as open as the first.

3. It stops the hide and seek strategy which is detracts from the action both in game and from a spectators point of view. The winning team cant hide in a corner because there is a specific point they have to keep under their control.

The competitive games I have played on Labyrinth have bean some of the best, mostly due to the decreased downtime and the reduced punishment from death (which leads to much larger game swings). Obviously the problem with this idea is the lack of maps to play on. Labyrinth is a good map, but i have doubts about Desert Scrap as a competitive map. In the future I would love to see king of the hill versions of other maps (such as Canyon, Fjords, etc.) so we could try a format like this
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Lueosi on March 16, 2016, 12:12:07 pm
What are the opinions about the current overtime rules? Keep it? Change it? Drop it?
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Guagadu on March 16, 2016, 12:47:33 pm
What are the opinions about the current overtime rules? Keep it? Change it? Drop it?

I really like them, I find it makes the end of a game much more exciting, from both a player and spectator perspective.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Newbluud on March 16, 2016, 01:14:17 pm
What are the opinions about the current overtime rules? Keep it? Change it? Drop it?
Hugely preferred to the old system. People still play the timer, but it makes for a fairer and more competitive end to a match, instead of the option to play ridiculously passively being given to the team with the kill advantage.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: MightyKeb on March 16, 2016, 01:16:56 pm
What are the opinions about the current overtime rules? Keep it? Change it? Drop it?

I really like them, I find it makes the end of a game much more exciting, from both a player and spectator perspective.

Having used overtime in my last two SCS matches, I second this.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: sparklerfish on March 21, 2016, 09:59:11 pm
It's great, please keep it.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Solidusbucket on March 21, 2016, 10:45:36 pm
I noticed one issue where overtime was declared on a score of 3 to 1 with the 3 score having kill advantage, and the 3 score losing their first ship during the overtime engagement. The engagement was long range. There was no point of the overtime.

Other than that, its nice.

EDIT:

There is still a point. Keep it simple and structured. But everyone in the stream agreed that it was a moot overtime.
Title: Re: SCS Timer
Post by: Lueosi on March 22, 2016, 01:07:46 pm
Thank you everyone for working this out, it's now included in the official rules (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oQ4hrcN1Pgbng30cjdmrxYp1SJNWYtqLciyr54AzCk8/edit#bookmark=kix.xc32wrlkzar4).