Guns Of Icarus Online

Info => Feedback and Suggestions => Topic started by: -Anakin- on December 04, 2015, 06:47:53 am

Title: 50 Players in Game
Post by: -Anakin- on December 04, 2015, 06:47:53 am
Take out this information, or at put it somewhere less obviously visible.

It seriously turns off new players.

Thoughts?
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: The Mann on December 04, 2015, 07:38:33 am
Interesting.

I suppose it could make sense.

I always see "This game is dead" and so on in Global  :'(
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: -Anakin- on December 04, 2015, 08:37:52 am
Exactly, they can't complain or be worried about low player numbers if they can't see them. I think it would still be good to have the number available to see, but perhaps in a menu.
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on December 04, 2015, 09:03:48 am
Exactly, they can't complain or be worried about low player numbers if they can't see them. I think it would still be good to have the number available to see, but perhaps in a menu.

community tab.

but yus I do actually need to see it personally so I can prepare for what to expect.

Plus it informs players on roughly how long MM will take seeing as we no longer have server browse.
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Celti on December 08, 2015, 11:57:17 pm
I totally agree with this! Everytime "what happened to this game?" etc etc should probably move it to Community Tab as suggested above.
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Celti on December 09, 2015, 03:13:16 am
I totally agree with this! Everytime "what happened to this game?" etc etc should probably move it to Community Tab as suggested above.

Or maybe the key you use to check FPS and all that could show the number of people online?
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Byron Cavendish on December 09, 2015, 10:13:58 am
It does seem to be an issue with new players. It seems like the catalyst for a lot of "is this game dying?" posts in the steam forum. Kamboda and I just love those.
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Hoja Lateralus on December 09, 2015, 11:35:19 am
Hiding the number won't change the fact, that there are only 50 players in the game at that time. People will probably notice is anyway (long search wait, playing with the same people, etc.) and "smarter" ones will find the number in no time at all (steamcharts, anyone?). I believe it is just fair for player to know how many players are in the game and to act accordingly, whatever that means for him/her/it*.

Instead let's think about why people leave so quickly after sales and try solving that problem. I bet many of us already have given 'some' feedback and we're sure as hell to give some more if needed.

*on the internet no one knows you're a dog
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on December 09, 2015, 04:19:13 pm

Instead let's think about why people leave so quickly after sales and try solving that problem. I bet many of us already have given 'some' feedback and we're sure as hell to give some more if needed.


Blame social media and freebie gaming. Lots of short attention spans and GOIO does not feed into it. Sadly Muse has been editing the game to feed these sorts of players. MM, CP changes, and now a splash screen.

Feeding casuals never works for longevity. Look at MMOs, whenever they stop catering to their core audience and start "content for everyone" or "casual gamer" pushes, the games suffer. The core players get disgruntled and start looking to other games, the casuals, while large in number, consist of social media gaming players who do not contribute to the community. They come and go even quicker. They are just not invested enough into the game to care.

Silly gametypes and such that will come with private servers may help some of this. Then players can turn GOIO into more of the game they want to play.
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: SiepeAssassina on December 10, 2015, 04:22:13 am

Instead let's think about why people leave so quickly after sales and try solving that problem. I bet many of us already have given 'some' feedback and we're sure as hell to give some more if needed.


Blame social media and freebie gaming. Lots of short attention spans and GOIO does not feed into it. Sadly Muse has been editing the game to feed these sorts of players. MM, CP changes, and now a splash screen.

Feeding casuals never works for longevity. Look at MMOs, whenever they stop catering to their core audience and start "content for everyone" or "casual gamer" pushes, the games suffer. The core players get disgruntled and start looking to other games, the casuals, while large in number, consist of social media gaming players who do not contribute to the community. They come and go even quicker. They are just not invested enough into the game to care.

Silly gametypes and such that will come with private servers may help some of this. Then players can turn GOIO into more of the game they want to play.

Last time I said guns was moving towards a casual gameplay (and not in a good way) I got pointed as a "nerd" who only cares about its stats and stuff like that...
"Core gamers" ore more commonly "THE community" is what makes a game what it is. Period. If someone won't stay there's no way to force it. Not even giving him free "kills".
Hopefully some more people share my idea. Thanks.
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on December 10, 2015, 07:04:39 am
Should just go with the philosophy behind Japanese/asian game design.

I'm sorry my game is too hard for you. We look forward to your next purchase.

I mean imagine dark souls becoming easier just because people were too dumb to play the game. When a game is hard but fair (that being said guns isn't that hard), it shouldn't be made easier since the fairness becomes a joke.

Guns fundamentally stresses the importance of efficiency. That won't be taught via handholding with game modes and match making because the moment the match starts. You have to learn to get good in the first place.

Plus most vets do have a sense of fairness as they see fit.
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Cancaro on December 10, 2015, 07:51:02 am
Hiding the number won't change the fact, that there are only 50 players in the game at that time. People will probably notice is anyway (long search wait, playing with the same people, etc.) and "smarter" ones will find the number in no time at all (steamcharts, anyone?). I believe it is just fair for player to know how many players are in the game and to act accordingly, whatever that means for him/her/it*.

Instead let's think about why people leave so quickly after sales and try solving that problem. I bet many of us already have given 'some' feedback and we're sure as hell to give some more if needed.

*on the internet no one knows you're a dog
Quote everything.
On why people leave, besides the missing of the brain or the concept of teamwork required by this game, I will give my opinion.
Stacked matches
I know newbies could be irritating and many of you like to play with (and not against) your friends, but this thing actually kills the game because there is too much gap between experienced players and new players. Sometimes there isn't even the option because there are too few people online and sometimes you just want a relaxing match, I know, but I think that's frustrating for new players. Only way to resolve this is being helpful with new players (there are some who listen) and spread the high level players if the lobby is too unbalanced. I include myself in this, even though I usually try to not leave low level crews or already lost games (I do when it's like the fourth in a row, charity has his limits  :P)
HWACHA
(http://i.imgur.com/IzBc6iB.jpg)
Old game
Face it. It's been out for years, games nowdays lasts months at best. Unless they are MMORPG or MMOFPS, but that's just because you don't need brain, you just have to farm 22h a day or just camp&kill.

What could be done in MY opinion? Just an idea who comes into my mind.

Produce new maps (not reuse old ones), themes, clothing (that without saying ships and guns because I suppose they are busy with the co-op, and those things need to be balanced). Workshop could be a great help if only material could get approved faster. Constant new material is something that keeps the game alive, more than paying a youtuber that will just bring a boom of 400 new (stupid) players that will just fill the game with monkeys and discourage the smart one because too much kids. Those 400 will also leave the game in few months. I understand the money, but it isn't a solution. We've seen it with the teaching tournament.
Put space invaders or snake in lobbies lol
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Coiler on December 10, 2015, 08:21:41 am
Don't know if something went wrong somewhere, what with Alliance -which I'm sure will be a great product for the work being put into it- being developed for some time now, but let's face it.
No actual new 'content' but a new gun and recycled maps for about a year and a half won't do justice to any game. Much less for one that needs players to be teached and handheld through the first 10 or 20 hours.
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on December 10, 2015, 07:48:17 pm
Don't know if something went wrong somewhere, what with Alliance -which I'm sure will be a great product for the work being put into it- being developed for some time now, but let's face it.
No actual new 'content' but a new gun and recycled maps for about a year and a half won't do justice to any game. Much less for one that needs players to be teached and handheld through the first 10 or 20 hours.

Bigger question here is what department loses some muscle so that other like in-game content development/approval, gets a boost?

Its a small core development team, going for an ambition project and sticking with it. And apparently interns are coming in to do intern stuff. But its not expanding anywhere fast enough to keep up with itself, to maintain its life span.


So the BIG question will be, when all the new stuff thats promised is done. Will there be a playerbase to play it by then?

So muse's current course of action is as follows.

Focusing on a whole new mode, with the small team it is time consuming and slow and likely lacking in funds to outsource testing or other plebeian tasks for development.

Meanwhile to stave off the necrosis of the playerbase, they have resorted to padding out the playerbase with dumb ideas like vet games and arbitrary achievements and very obvious pyramid schemes (novice partnership-get more novices to get useless titles, because you can't just grind that stuff with 1 set of novices, you must perpetually do so).

Let's also not forget the dumbing down of many aspects of the game for accessibility which has clearly failed to work as player retention has not really changed. The cycle of losing vets for "new vets" with deteriorating skill with each generation is still apparent. And we the players (at least a faction of the community), think its OUR fault for crushing newbies/being frustrated and angry with them and generally "forcing" these special little flowers to leave the game.

So... what muse do that isn't unreasonable, yet not some cheap ass gimmick that will fall flat on its face. What simple change will magically make things better?

My answer? Some goddamn back peddling. I mean a major rebalance overhaul, THAT will appease the vets. We've discussed the solutions of each issue thoroughly, so they don't even have to worry about discussing internally. A big first step in the correct direction of this game  is to get what is currently out COMPLETELY RIGHT, before you throw more into your "to sort" pile by adding more garbage to the pile.
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Byron Cavendish on December 11, 2015, 01:08:58 am
I completely agree Jazz. I think we have been hearing hints of this from Matt and Howard. From what I've heard in recent firesides and personal convos, at least those two seem to be on the verge of realizing it.

The major issue to what your saying is Eric. There's no way around it. I think he is the major problem for GOIO, and I think he is a bad influence on it. He holds a lot of power, sometimes more than Howard. When the lead designer is contradicting the CEO in firesides, or flat out saying "no, that's wrong", then you know you can't get around this guy. He does not care what the community wants. He doesn't care (or doesn't see) what GOIO needs. He cares about what he wants. Any back peddling will be minimal or rejected while the status quo sits. He is the responsible party for a lot of the changes over the years that have driven away the majority of vets. Where is Zill, sammy, salous, captain roy? Leaders of the old clans have all given up or been driven away. The bedrock of this game is the clans, and back peddling will help, but not without the source of the friction changing.

Honestly, I think Matt should have his job. I don't know what technical skills he has, but he is a good manager, he knows what's really happening in-game and in the community, and he does listen to feedback.

Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on December 11, 2015, 06:18:16 am
I completely agree Jazz. I think we have been hearing hints of this from Matt and Howard. From what I've heard in recent firesides and personal convos, at least those two seem to be on the verge of realizing it.

The major issue to what your saying is Eric. There's no way around it. I think he is the major problem for GOIO, and I think he is a bad influence on it. He holds a lot of power, sometimes more than Howard. When the lead designer is contradicting the CEO in firesides, or flat out saying "no, that's wrong", then you know you can't get around this guy. He does not care what the community wants. He doesn't care (or doesn't see) what GOIO needs. He cares about what he wants. Any back peddling will be minimal or rejected while the status quo sits. He is the responsible party for a lot of the changes over the years that have driven away the majority of vets. Where is Zill, sammy, salous, captain roy? Leaders of the old clans have all given up or been driven away. The bedrock of this game is the clans, and back peddling will help, but not without the source of the friction changing.

Honestly, I think Matt should have his job. I don't know what technical skills he has, but he is a good manager, he knows what's really happening in-game and in the community, and he does listen to feedback.

So basically Eric thinks he's Kojima but he's actually David Kage. But iunno, is he really that bad? Is it for certain that all of these poor moves comes directly from him?
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Byron Cavendish on December 11, 2015, 07:32:56 am
I don't think he is responsible for every bad decision. The difference between him and say, any other dev, is that they are not so completely self confident in thinking they can't make mistakes. Howard is very open to admitting when something was a bad idea, and changing it. Eric thinks everything he does is right, that he has the right to make the changes he wants, and he could care less about our feelings on the matter. Watch firesides for awhile, or look at his old posts (because he won't post anymore, he doesn't like criticism).

Most of the posts I could find:

1. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,38.msg1603.html#msg1603

2. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,551.msg9253.html#msg9253

3. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,771.msg18772.html#msg18772

4. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1583.msg27898.html#msg27898

5. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1775.msg32289.html#msg32289

6. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1776.msg32287.html#msg32287

7. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,1882.msg33202.html#msg33202

8. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2012.msg35782.html#msg35782

9. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2012.msg35341.html#msg35341

10. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2058.msg37183.html#msg37183

11. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2007.msg37101.html#msg37101

12. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2058.msg37654.html#msg37654

13. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2358.msg40775.html#msg40775

14. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2358.msg40347.html#msg40347

15. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2674.msg45569.html#msg45569

16. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2674.msg45563.html#msg45563

17. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2674.msg46129.html#msg46129

18. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2758.msg47265.html#msg47265

19. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2760.msg47459.html#msg47459

20. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2758.msg48363.html#msg48363

21. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,2758.msg48358.html#msg48358

22. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3014.msg52104.html#msg52104

23. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3014.msg52100.html#msg52100

24. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3014.msg52147.html#msg52147

25. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3014.msg52125.html#msg52125

In this one he tried to pass off blame onto the very community that never wanted this feature. HMMMM...

26. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3254.msg55956.html#msg55956

27. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3254.msg55951.html#msg55951

28. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3035.msg55180.html#msg55180

29. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3426.msg61206.html#msg61206

30. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3426.msg67371.html#msg67371

31. https://gunsoficarus.com/community/forum/index.php/topic,3902.msg68102.html#msg68102
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on December 12, 2015, 02:56:22 pm
He comes off as taking the "I know more info about the game data than you hence I am making the more informed decision."

Not even considering that he might be incorrect in said decision. Also I wonder if he'll get off his high horse if he actually shares this data to the community to then be disgust.

But I don't think he'll share, 1. because sharing that stuff is kinda iffy but 2. he loses his edge in arguments.
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: SiepeAssassina on December 12, 2015, 03:43:30 pm
He needs to step down from his throne or this game will collapse. In its current state Guns isn't appealing to casual/new player nor to veterans/hardcore/old players.
I don't think this is community's fault as we all provided tons of constructive feedback.
We INVESTED time on this game, hoping to see it improving day after day hence the immense saddness in seeing that small counter ticking the time of GoIO's life.
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: BlackenedPies on December 12, 2015, 04:02:20 pm
HiPPO Syndrome (http://traveltekker.com/2012/07/11/think-you-can-effectivelyjudge-effective-user-experience-design-think-again/) You can't rely on the highest paid person's opinion
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on December 12, 2015, 04:33:59 pm
As the situation seems.

All we can do is hope we don't have to say I told you so (by then its too late). We've been discussing this game for years and have covered every practical option.

But in the end, it's muse's game. Don't like it (and slowly becoming the case), make your own and do it better.

Or in higher likeliness find a better game (apparently the asian company they refused in the early days made a clone so maybe...)

Will you be the captain that sinks with the fleet?
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on December 13, 2015, 03:33:56 am
Muse makes game
Players play game
Players become vets
Muse nerfs game
Vets leave game
Muse scrounges for players
Players want competitive
Vets not around anymore to manage competitive
Players leave game
Muse closes game

Ultimately, the private server move may be a sign that Muse has had it with managing GOIO. If you can't make people happy, just give them the tools to make themselves happy. If we can host custom servers with any mutators we want, we ultimately decide what is meta and what isn't. Muse doesn't have to bother anymore. The community wins and Muse  gets a much needed reprieve. This is really something that should have been done long ago. In fact myself and others suggested the same thing back then. See I come from UT99 background with a healthy modding community and custom servers. I saw how powerful those were with keeping a game alive long past it's prime. Games without private hosting, that run only via the parent company, never last.
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Byron Cavendish on December 13, 2015, 08:24:40 am
^
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Arturo Sanchez on December 13, 2015, 09:56:31 am
but will it come out on time?

also don't private servers have an issue in regards to cheating?
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Terrkas on December 13, 2015, 10:39:21 am
Should just go with the philosophy behind Japanese/asian game design.

I'm sorry my game is too hard for you. We look forward to your next purchase.

I mean imagine dark souls becoming easier just because people were too dumb to play the game. When a game is hard but fair (that being said guns isn't that hard), it shouldn't be made easier since the fairness becomes a joke.

Guns fundamentally stresses the importance of efficiency. That won't be taught via handholding with game modes and match making because the moment the match starts. You have to learn to get good in the first place.

Plus most vets do have a sense of fairness as they see fit.

Well, there are lots of ways to make dark souls easier. Like having  spells and playing with friends as phantoms.  And on the other side one can increase the difficulty with some items or by taking handicaps. Basically everyone can adjust the difficulty for himself, how he wants it with those options.
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: sparklerfish on December 13, 2015, 02:35:16 pm
To go back to the original topic, yes, I think the player count should be slightly more hidden.  This is something that turns off new players before they even play a match.  All this talk about how to make the game appealing is irrelevant if someone logs on, sees the game is "dead", and never even gives it a chance.
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Hoja Lateralus on December 13, 2015, 03:24:02 pm
To go back to the original topic, yes, I think the player count should be slightly more hidden.  This is something that turns off new players before they even play a match.  All this talk about how to make the game appealing is irrelevant if someone logs on, sees the game is "dead", and never even gives it a chance.

On the other hand - Muse had 2 years to fix this. They didn't. So it is reasonable to think that perhaps something needs to be done, and we just wonder what might be that thing. Also everyone is interested in this. Muse, because money and because survival of skirmnish, vets because shorter matchmaker waiting times and (after a while) more chance of forming a 'middle class' of GOIO, people with 500-1000 games played, which would also mean less newbies in their matches, and of course newbies are interested because it means (potentially) longer life of novice lobbies and more players to play with, probably middle class players, which wouldn't perhaps stomp them as hard as vets supposedly do. 

*this - meaning low player count
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on December 13, 2015, 08:49:30 pm
but will it come out on time?

also don't private servers have an issue in regards to cheating?

Ask Muse. Eric was teasing about it weeks back.

Yes private servers will likely mean cheating will finally happen. It's going to suck but its a small price to pay towards making a lasting game. Muse's overall dev work on GOIO would go from handling every aspect and balancing to just writing anti cheat stuff for servers. Unless of course they host their own still. Then main servers would be under Muse and be cheat free while private servers would be open.
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: FranckM on December 14, 2015, 12:46:24 pm
With how small the community is, most people know each other, so any cheater would be recognized quite fast.
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: BlackenedPies on December 14, 2015, 12:57:26 pm
How does cheating work in private vs public servers?
Title: Re: 50 Players in Game
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on December 14, 2015, 05:40:12 pm
Well the way Muse said it years back was...their system eliminates one part of cheating by them handling all the server code. You'd have to hack the game server itself to get it to cheat. So really its not that it can't be done, just no one in their right mind would invest time to do it. Private hosting takes the power from Muse and puts it in our hands. So we can do whatever we want with it. Granted I think it will require some Unity knowledge but it would mean one less step.

Course I don't see the point of cheating in GOIO. This isn't like a normal FPS where you'd really gain majorly from aimbots. Maybe back in the sniper battle days it would have been godlike but now...ehh. Unless your cheats are making the ship invincible or making guns autofire without AI or crew on them, theres just no reason to use cheats. Invincibility/etc would come in with private hosting since you could tweak server files or even have access to admin commands.