Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: N-Sunderland on April 22, 2013, 03:49:32 pm
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Good hint--no spyglass as pilot.
I protest that statement.
Is it really worth it, Zill? You lose a lot of extra potential for speed/mobility/whatever in exchange for an item that every member of your crew has. I've heard your explanation before, but a good engineer should always find time to spot. Even when I'm camping the hull, I'll spot enemy ships during cooldowns.
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I split this topic to not derail the previous discussion any further, and for that reason only.
On to my opinion of taking my spyglass vs another pilot tool, I find it more useful to me than another tool. I know it's not widely accepted and I'm possibly the only guy left who does it after they took away the damage bonus for spotted ships (remember that?).
First, I always have a gunner. I also expect him on his gun all the time, unless he's repairing that gun or something I tell him to help with. I don't need him spotting. We all know gun mounts mess with spotting already, so he'll be hopping all over to get that spot and then on the gun, when he should of had that shot off already.
Then you have engies. Why not let them spot for you? Well cause in the thick of a battle, they better be running around repairing effectively. I always preach fluid engies. Movement is always the key. Staying stationary for too long, unless you're on a gun or in a lull and spotting (which is fine), isn't right in my mind. I will call for camping a part at times, but otherwise make the best use of those cooldowns and repair something not on cooldown.
So that leaves me to spot, and I do it all the time. I want to know where the enemy is 100% of the match time. We all hate surprises in a seemingly 1v1 scenario I'm sure. This also lets my ally know where they are, and we can coordinate properly. I value spotted ships very highly, and use my skill as pilot to compensate for the lack of another pilot tool. Some tool's you guys might think mandatory on a boat, I've learned to live without. I'm not saying they are useless, I just compensate by other means, if that makes any sense. I dont always have claw when piloting galleon/pyra, for example.
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I really can't live without Moonshine, Hydrogen, and Chute vent, and I mean that literally. I will killed (in game) if I can't get out of a situation vertically in either direction, or outrun two ships gunning for me.
I also like asking my crew to do most of the spotting since it adds to the Esprit De Corps in my ship. I want my crew knowing I am counting on them to do the little things like get spots. That way they know what it is like to feel appreciated by the captain before I open the floodgates of verbal abuse for not repairing things fast enough or missing shots at close range. If they know it is possible to win the captain's praise and respect they will work harder to do things right than if I am on "flogging mode" the entire time.
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There's just not enough slots to use all the great mobility tools available, I find myself making full use out of all three slots and relying on superior mobility to win most engagements. Even if my crew isn't spotting as much as I'd like them to, I can make up for it by simply communicating with my ally or paying attention to my enemy's movements and guessing where they'll want to go. The spyglass is certainly useful, but it's useful like the flaregun - great for a slot that otherwise would otherwise go to waste, terrible otherwise.
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I've always thought it might be interesting if engies and gunners could take something other than spyglass. Currently it's not even a choice. Perhaps something like a wind gauge or other detecting equipment.
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I've always thought it might be interesting if engies and gunners could take something other than spyglass. Currently it's not even a choice. Perhaps something like a wind gauge or other detecting equipment.
I've always thought that too. Probably a balancing act more than anything if they did introduce more tools though, and making tools for the sake of other classes seems eh.
It's not that I don't trust my crew to get spots. Its just one less order I have to bark, and they can be off doing their other tasks. Pilots have the best vantages for spotting vs crew (for the most part). They have the glass for those off-times they are behind you or in a blind spot.
Like I said, its just something I'm accustomed to and have always done while piloting. It helps me with initial positioning, and angles of approach, since you can see them on the map while spotted. Might be a weak argument, but I've quite literally never flown without it in my tools.
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Good call on the thread split.
I would argue that, of all crew positions during initial contact, the pilot will be the only one who is guaranteed to be doing something. That's from a tasking standpoint. The other bit is that bringing anything other than a spyglass for another crew member is useless. The non-pilots are pretty much required to bring the spyglass as their flying equipment. I don't think the fourth set of spotting eyes outweighs the dual responsibility of doing that as well as flying in terms of task saturation, or the significant loss of not being able to use a third item.
I do agree with engineers not spotting in the heat of battle. I'd rather have my gunner do that. Generally, because of firing arc maneuvering (both ours and theirs), either the engineer or the gunner has a moment to spyglass the enemy.
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For public games, I'd definitely see taking the spyglass as captain as a good maneuver. After the first match, though, I'd tell them to grab it. I'm not a good enough pilot to sacrifice my third tool for any higher level play; I'm a little too reliant on the bonuses they give because I don't plan ahead very well.
I believe that I am an acceptable pilot in terms of skill. I also know that I make many mistakes that I fix using the tools I bring along. Therefore, I shall make the claim that inexperienced to normal skill level pilots should avoid the spyglass in order to make up for frequent flying mistakes. However, I will then make the claim that 'veteran professional' pilots don't need these tools for the wiggle room, because their mistakes are either too small and/or too infrequent- a spyglass would be getting more use than moonshine or phoenix claw. This lets the other crew members focus purely on their role. While the extra focus is not a significant increase, it is still undoubtedly giving the other members an easier job.
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No amount of skill is going to make you turn faster, or make you move faster, or make tar shoot out your ass. Your own ability to track unspotted enemies and convey their position verbally over captain does mitigate the effects of not having a spyglass yourself. I'd argue the more skilled you are as a captain, the less you need the spyglass and the more often you'll look to your main engie and wonder if he'd be better taking moonshine for you.
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No amount of skill is going to make you turn faster,
If you start your turn early enough, your ship can be pointed in the right direction at about the same time as a late turn with chicken foot. Good tactics can lessen the need for items that help you run away, as can a good crew.
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That's the same as saying good tactics will let you win with a harpoon junker. If you're not vastly more skilled than your opponent, if you're taking on someone of roughly equal skill, you're going to feel the effects of not having as good a turning speed because they're going to be turning early too, it's just numbers. You can, however, make up for the lack of spotted ships with communication and good general awareness, you're only going to have some trouble sniping through clouds as a skilled opponent's movements will become unpredictable.
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That isn't saying you can win with a harpoon junker due to good tactics alone at all. There are way more factors than just pilot skill that go into what good tactics do for you.
Assuming you're in a fight with even pilot skill and you have spyglass and tools vs the other guy having 3, you should already be considering what kind of fight you're going for. Need more maneuvering? Either take a boat that is already better at turning, or engage him while he is out of position, which the spyglass lets you do thanks to the map. Know that he will be out-turning you in the same boat, so compensate. Ram him off gun arc, stay in a more advantageous position. If he wants to chute vent down, and you only have hydrogen, use the time to repair. Then you can maybe attack his ally who stayed up near you, and force his use of tools to your advantage.
Good tactics can win you fights over hard counters, to a degree. We aren't saying good tactics will make the all flare squid OP.
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I meant good tactics like sticking close to your ally and focusing down the most dangerous ship. You don't need Drogue Chute if your ally can fight off the carronade ship trying to pin you. You won't need to use helium if you can force the enemy to run from the fight first. It doesn't matter how fast you turn if your ship is pointed in the wrong direction to begin with.
Having the pilot tool will always be better than not having the pilot tool, but with proper planning and coordination a good pilot/team can make up for its absence.
Also lets hear it for derailing a thread that got started because its was derailing another thread.
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Ehhh at least you can still try to make it seem on topic since it wouldn't of started without the lack of pilot tools and good tactics.
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Personally I just feel limited if I take the spyglass. Having another pilot tool gives me more options for maneuvering, and typically ships get spotted by members of my crew very quickly anyway, which only takes a second or two away from anything else they might be doing. And I get Zill's argument about those two seconds being crucial, but in my experience when a ship is first spotted they're usually still out of range of guns anyway.
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I feel that we might be forgetting that taking the spyglass still means there's two helm tools to use. Still need turning? Then grab the drumstick. Speed? Lube up those engines. Its not a death sentence to take a spyglass.
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Read your post about spotting in the other thread, Zill. My argument is that if the gunner sees someone that's out of his gun arc, he should be spyglassing them and the pilot should be turning to engage, or at very least the engineer should spot them while they're engaged. I think we've hit the agree-to-disagree point, though.
No amount of skill is going to make you turn faster,
If you start your turn early enough, your ship can be pointed in the right direction at about the same time as a late turn with chicken foot. Good tactics can lessen the need for items that help you run away, as can a good crew.
Yes, but that increases your turn radius, as well. You can end up spit out from a merge engagement, or having to reduce throttle to make the turn, resulting in increased distance. It often puts you at a turning circle disadvantage. Blah blah here's the post about it. (http://gunsoficarus.com/community/forumarchive/discussion/1082/geometry-a-pilot039s-main-gun)
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Read your post about spotting in the other thread, Zill. My argument is that if the gunner sees someone that's out of his gun arc, he should be spyglassing them and the pilot should be turning to engage, or at very least the engineer should spot them while they're engaged. I think we've hit the agree-to-disagree point, though
Yea, and to be clear, I'm not telling any of my crew to not spot. That would be rather silly given my value to marked targets. But it's kind of that quick psychological thing where they see I spot them rather quickly and move to other things like loading ammo and repairing. Kind of like how you put guns in a particular place so you can control who's manning it.
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I still take spyglass can't trust randoms to spot for me and is a must for squids
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I still take spyglass can't trust randoms to spot for me and is a must for squids
But if you're with a crew you know and trust, you won't take it?
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Even with a crew I don't trust, I can track ships easily enough with my one good eye to make taking that third captain's tool worthwhile. Yeah it's a pain in the ass when an unspotted enemy moves underneath my ship but I'd rather have a tool to make it easier to get my guns back on target.
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After the phoenix claw and the chute/hydrogen, I'm usually up in the air as to what to use. The third tool seems to usually get ignored... I've started using the Spyglass in honor of this thread, and I'm starting to like it.
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Having both chute and hydrogen and pheonix claw gives you a serious advantage over those that don't, there's always at least one direction you can flee towards where they can't follow you. Moonshine will let you escape and get back into the fight faster to avoid your teammate getting trapped in a 2v1. Tar barrel is an ass-mounted hwacha. Even impact bumpers are going to see more use as that'll let you ram or tank rams better, or drag out engagements with enemy carronades.
There's lots of good choices for all three pilot tool slots, if you find yourself not caring much about that third slot then you need to try the tools out more. If nothing else, moonshine or kerosene will be more useful in just about any other match.
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Because of my fly-style, I guess I only need two tools that impact the ship, and the spyglass for the much needed awareness. Don't worry, Helmic, I've tried them all out and know how what works best for me.
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The topic's all about taking the spyglass, don't think you can get away with a simple "it works for me", you gotta be more specific to convince anyone. Even brand new crew can spot enemies, sometimes without you even telling them. You're sacrificing a huge portion of your mobility to do someone else's job, a job that isn't so necessary (if YOU can spot the ship, you already see it, from then on it's just a matter of keeping your wits about you). Spotting is certainly very helpful and crewmembers that spot for you will win matches as that reduces the ship's reaction time considerably, but your reliance on that marker can be considerably reduced with practice in exchange for a significant mechanical bonus, you're getting more DPS and less damage just by keeping your guns in arc and range and fleeing in a direction you won't be followed.
I can see the spyglass being useful for newer captains that can't quite communicate with their crew yet or maybe on ships where you know your crew doesn't speak English and won't spot or POSSIBLY on a sniping ship where there's a chance you're the only one that can see a ship that needs shot at, but for anyone capable of getting those tricky spots in the first place you personally are not going to benefit that much from the marker anyways. Microphone or text instructions are often faster than the three or four seconds of mad left-clicking it sometimes takes to spot something with a spyglass.
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I used the Spyglass for awhile when I was first starting out and didn't really have a firm grasp on how damn useful the Piloting Equipment was. My typical setup is Claw/Kerosene or Moonshine/Tar, cause I love quick escapes from bullshit I don't deserve to get away from.
Sometimes when running a anti-balloon build I regret not having the Spyglass, cause the enemy will often pass far beneath you. I fly with a usual crew that I communicate with, but it's still sometimes frustrating to see a target and not have it spotted. Still not worth losing another piece of gear, though.