Guns Of Icarus Online

Main => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kushmeyer on October 22, 2015, 09:32:34 am

Title: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Kushmeyer on October 22, 2015, 09:32:34 am
I got a watered down game with unfinished content cut and put into a DLC that needs it's own kickstarter despite the original game getting 3 times it's intended goal. Oh, and the company threw in the Workshop as some kind of positive. Because spending more of my money on a game that has yet to deliver it's original promises is a positive thing.

Picture too big to attach: http://puu.sh/kTrHc/b8b371dfa7.jpg
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Byron Cavendish on October 22, 2015, 09:48:30 am
I feel ya man but you're late to the party. Now the rage is the complete abandonment of GOIO (except for "new" maps that are cut down versions of bigger maps), and a watered down half promised delivery of "Alliance", the new not adventure mode dlc.

But silver lining, you weren't lied to, at least not intentionally. They meant well, but I have heard from multiple ex-employees that the micro-management and constant dis-organization, and changing of direction on a monthly basis lead to a complete breakdown in any organized dlc development.

Still, they are nice, good people and I still like 'em. Except Eric.

So quite simply (and sadly), it is what it is.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Dev Bubbles on October 22, 2015, 10:42:06 am
Oh Byron, here you go again. I appreciate the support, but the talk about multiple ex-employees... We talked specifically about this last time, and yet, here you go making these claims again. Not sure what to say to this. It's your freedom of speech after all. One thing I would say is that, if somehow you feel that what we're doing with the expansion is not what you thought you backed in KS, I would love to give you a refund. I think our communications about everything has been clear and transparent. However, if somehow you still feel like you were cheated out of something, I would love to refund you asap. Just email you and let me know.

Kushmeyer, I'm not sure how much of our communications you've been following.  Firstly, if you're not happy with the KS, please email us at feedback@musegames.com, and I will give you a refund asap. Secondly, I'm not sure if the watered down game you're referring to is the PvP game or the expansion. If you're referring to the base game, there are a few things to note. One, 35K is not enough to make what we've made over 3 years. I can't tell you how far away $35K is from the cost of us making the game. This I need to rely on you a bit to understand how much game creation generally costs. Two, if there are unfinished aspects of the game you're referring to specifically, I'd love to hear them, as it could be great feedback for us to improve. However, do keep in mind that we've been updating the game for 3 years now. If you were in the original KS, I don't think it'd be too difficult to see how much work we've done since then. Three, with Workshop, it is a positive. We've had so many players who've asked us for it, and it took us a long time to make it happen. I'm not sure what confusion there is about in game stuff, but again, you're not obligated to spend a cent. Also, the majority of the workshop items the creators want to gift to the community free for all. 

Lastly, we know full well what we said between the original KS and the expansion KS. We've gone at length to explain the rationale for the expansion KS, and also make up for the poor planning and stupid communications we've made with the original.  We were up front with our mistakes as well. We've make a number of postings in numerous places and have talked openly about this whenever asked over the last 2 years. Somehow, none of what we said reached you, and for that I do apologize. But again, I'd be happy to give a refund. Thanks.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Byron Cavendish on October 22, 2015, 02:59:32 pm
Personally, while I do feel that the Alliance is not delivering what the adventure mode kickstarter promised, I am able to accept the reasons why. I still support you guys enough, as people, and as a company, to stand behind it. And I'm still interested in seeing what Alliance can deliver. I'm still not 100% happy it, but like I said it is what it is. Despite the problems, I accept them, and I still support ya guys.

However there are problems, and not everyone is as understanding. Those that are angry, I understand them too. So I have never held back from stating my mind, (for good or bad) and I do have to offer them my insight and my compassion to them.

I always think the bad and the good have to be heard. There is a ton good about GOIO, but the thing is we've all said the good, there's only so many times we can say it. Our small community of vets wouldn't be here after 2-3 years otherwise. But as time goes on, the good has been toyed with, we get very little "new" to praise as good, and we start getting agitated as GOIO vanilla gets covered in dust while we hear more of the missed content in Alliance then what is actually in it. At this point, other than Muse, who actually knows the difference between co-op, alliance, or adventure mode? What differences define what game they would and will be? All we see is the slow decay of GOIO, and the poor balancing of it. So that does leave us angry, but in my case, still supportive.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Dev Bubbles on October 22, 2015, 03:44:04 pm
Hi Byron, thanks a lot.  Really appreciate it.  Yeah I hear you and agree that having negative feedback is actually really helpful.  Didn't want to sound like I can't take the criticism.  Well, I did rant a bit before I replied hahaha.  I did feel a bit that with the ex-employee assertion stuff, it's more at a personal level, and I felt like we already talked about this, so I was frustrated.  But it's cool though. 

About the specific points, again, I think with what is missed vs what we're working on, I felt like we've been through this quite a bit, so it's probably not needed for me to blabber on for too long here.  With co-op/Alliance/Adventure, firstly, co-op is Alliance. If this was causing confusion, we might have used a development code name like project x?  Not sure, but co-op should pertain to more of an actual game genre, while Alliance is more of a naming term we're coming up with.  Because, ultimately, we need a name to call what we are working on.  And we tried to articulate this in the KS update post.  Contrasting this to Adventure, we cannot call what this is "Adventure" because we did not reach the thresholds and tiers for the KS fully, and so if we deliver what KS backers back us up to, we should call what we're delivering something else.  I think this is the responsible thing to do.  I do feel like we've tried pretty hard to communicate this openly and clearly, but yeah, we could do better.  I think whereas with the original KS where we were totally stupid in how we communicated scope as Kushmeyer pointed out, we tried to be pretty careful with the expansion KS. 

With the issue of decay or balancing.  I can't say balance is perfect, and in some ways the balance of a game should never be perfect.  But while we see debates about usage and "OPness" of some guns (ex. hwacha etc.) I do think that we've improved with balance compared to when we first started.  You may argue that well, that's not saying much.  But when we first started, as you remember, we had plenty of times where 1 gun dominate usage and win rate.  Ex. heavy flak, artemis, merc, and so on.  Looking at usage and win rate data recently, I can at least confidently say that there are multiple viable builds in play in pub matches as well as competitive.  You're a better player than I, so you can probably say that I'm not in a position to argue about individual use cases and tactics, but I don't think I'm off here either. 

As far as the feeling of the game in decay.  One, we're continuing to update the game while working on the expansion. I totally get that you feel that we're not doing enough, with new contents, features, or balance. At some point though, look at it from my point of view, there is almost no win. If I update something, or change something, balance wise let's say, I could be causing decay in people's minds, as I would be risking eroding balance from an expected golden mean.  I can look at a gun's data, and say it's OP.  And even if people agree, and I balance it, I'm bound to piss off people who use that gun.  If I make new features, I can have some people yell at me and say, hey, why am I not working on the expansion, or hey, why is my specific ideas not implemented.  If I work on the expansion, I can get yelled at for not doing more to update the game, etc.  The point I'm making is, at some point, say after a few hundred hours of play, I might be fighting a losing battle with some people.  I change and get yelled at by some.  I don't change, and get yelled at by some.  So honestly, I can only say that we'll keep trying our best, with the understanding that at some point, a given player would get everything he/she could get out of the game experience and move on to the next great game.  And I think I need to be ok with that and be thankful, as there are a lot of great games out there. 

If you decide tomorrow or today even that GOI just isn't worth your time anymore, I'll definitely be sad and will miss you a lot.  And I'll of course take the criticisms and try to do better.  But, I think I should also be supportive.  If I've given you at least a few hundred hours of enjoyment, I'm actually pretty proud of that. 

Anyways, I might have gotten off track.  Appreciate the support Byron! 
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Skrimskraw on October 22, 2015, 04:07:30 pm
I backed, but after a while I just decided to see it as a donation to muse, I no longer have any expectations for what is being made, but in a sense you could say you were lied to, but bubbles is willing to refund you if you dont like the changes that was made.

personally I feel like Coop and adventure have gotten too much attention, skirmish is good, was good for a long while, but now its boring after 1000+ hours. sure someone can claim they can get more then 1000 hours out of the game, but not me i need a lot more content added for it to be interesting Again. Adding 2v2 versions of 3v3 maps for me is not a "new" map or "new" content, and the lack of new ship since mobula years ago is not either. The new weapons have been interesting but somewhat useless or not enough to break game balance.

Dont get me wrong, goio is a fucking good game, one of the best I have played and I will tell any new player to try it, but for me Im just tired of the same ships, same guns etc. maybe I will come back for Coop and hopefully it will have double the current content.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Dutch Vanya on October 22, 2015, 04:10:33 pm
I think the main issue is that there have been barely any gameplay content updates for skirmish mode since release. The things a multiplayer game like this needs: maps, ships, guns, MAPS & MAPS. Slow progress on adventure mode, stamina and a pointless matchmaker that increased wait times and removed the social element are not what this game needed.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Byron Cavendish on October 22, 2015, 04:18:11 pm
Ya I get where your coming from. My opinions are my own, I'm aware that while I think GOIO needs more attention, if you were to give it attention, others would be mad your not working on Alliance. There is no way to win with that, no one will ever be happy. And balance is better than it was 1 year ago, and 2 years ago, but it still needs some work in areas that are really obvious and have taken way too long to amend, so its frustrating even though a lot of ground has been made.

However, everything else aside, you guys are a big company as far as indie co-op pvp games go. I play a lot of them, and some (like Verdun) started with only two devs, and now have four. They are working on an expansion, but still manage to put out on average two new maps a year, and 2 new squads a year (relative to a new ship+new guns). That's just one example. And I know each company is different, so it's kind of like comparing apples and oranges. But by this example, and most other indie co-op pvp games, new content comes out consistently every few months.

So I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that with 12 employees, plus a few "mercenaries" in Taiwan, that you guys couldn't put aside 2-3 developers to create 2-3 guns, 2 maps, and 1 new ship a year. It's a lot of work yes, and it does detract from Alliance yes, but it's a good middle ground that prevents almost all the decay the vets are moaning about. Features are nice (matchmaking, clan system, spawn system right?) but they're just nice. We got by without them before, they do improve the game, but in the majority of people's eyes isn't new content. It isn't exciting or sexy. When the casuals play this for a few months, and then wait a year to try it again, if they see very little that is actually new (maps, guns, ships) they aren't gonna stick around very long. And all the while your slowly bleeding bored vets.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Byron Cavendish on October 22, 2015, 04:19:13 pm
Adding 2v2 versions of 3v3 maps for me is not a "new" map or "new" content, and the lack of new ship since mobula years ago is not either.

Great point that I reciprocate. It's nice, better than nothing, but not new.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Crafeksterty on October 22, 2015, 04:34:15 pm
I fell in love with the gameplay and ultimately backed any current kickstarters muse had at the time, i dont regret even if it wont come out or is coming out too slowly to have my attention for when it does. Because i loved the game.

But yeah, i do feel lied to. After a while and observing the slow pace in creation (With full knowledge they arent a fullyblown 100 man dev team that still managed to make an ambitious game) along with some content that does get brought out. I simply accepted the money I spent. No biggy.

But its sad to see the kickstarter not deliver its exact plan according to how it was told when people backed it up. Whenever Coop does come out i do expect a valid extension. But i have a suspicious feeling i wont be playing it anymore by that time... maybe.


So to me, the issue is just time, and keeping players busy. I do find this 'fact' true to me but, I have to advocate and say it would be worse if they would have given us all the promised content early on a very poor state.

I like to look at it like Valves philosophy of that it is done when it is done, just know that I (a backer) wont be there to celebrate when it is done. Atleast new players or others will.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Dev Bubbles on October 22, 2015, 04:34:43 pm
Hi Byron,
With how much work we can do vs what others can do, it's a bit out of my depth, as I can only comment on devs I'm friends with or are familiar with. I don't personally know the Verdun devs, but I just know that they are the combined efforts of 2 studios. But exactly how many people do what, I can't really comment. 

The point about contents vs features though, I can't disagree :) 
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Dev Bubbles on October 22, 2015, 04:38:46 pm
@Crafeksterty, there's really no point feeling being lied to. I'd honestly be happy to give you a refund if you feel like we're too slow or are not living up to your expectations.  It's really ok!  Please let me know and I can take care of it asap.  Thanks so much! 
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Mattilald Anguisad on October 22, 2015, 04:40:43 pm
Slow progress on adventure mode, stamina and a pointless matchmaker that increased wait times and removed the social element are not what this game needed.
I would like to inquire, for further explanation on how is matchmaker pointless, and how did it remove social elements. The statements puzzle me.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Byron Cavendish on October 22, 2015, 04:47:44 pm
Howard I feel like we could go to a cafe and have a great debate for hours.

If I understand Craf correctly, he doesn't mind the monetary loss (nor do I, I too see it as a donation) but more of an emotional loss. Years with high expectations that are slowly deflated until reality finally sinks in and you realize that what you were hoping for will never be. It's a sad feeling more than anything. You can't refund that. It's like that really hot girl in high school you dated, with the "big tracks of land" that broke your heart.

Verdun was just an example, you can look at anything, Depth, Rocket League, ARK, Chivalry, the Forest or whatever, these are indie games/companies that are putting out content on a regular basis on top of stretch projects. I'm not saying this to put you guys down. I'm just trying to prove that a lot of companies are working hard to constantly generate new content as priority, because it does keep us interested. I want to want to play GOIO, but these other games get my attention easier, and keep me excited about them because of new content.

I will probably be one of the last persons to be playing GOIO in the end, but it'll be on a day the Oilers aren't playing, I'm bored enough with my other games, and have nothing better to do.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Dev Bubbles on October 22, 2015, 04:48:16 pm
Guys, the bottomline is, I shouldn't be making excuses, and I don't want to be.  We'll keep trying to do the best we can with the game and with the expansion.  And hopefully we can honor your support, and justify the money you guys pledged into this.  If you feel like we've fallen short though, please don't feel like you have to suffer, compromise, or be wronged against.  We'll do our best to make sure you guys are taken care of, one way or another. If it's refund you guys are looking for, definitely don't hesitate to let us know.  Thanks!
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Dev Bubbles on October 22, 2015, 04:54:04 pm
Byron, I get you.  I actually know the Depth devs.  I just chatted with them recently.  Like, sigh, this is kinda hard to explain here, so yeah, a cafe sit down would be better for sure.  But I actually know how they are, and what constraints they face pretty decently.  Devs share knowledge and stories more than you think.  But yeah, everyone's different.  In all honestly, compared to devs I know, maybe we didn't do better, but we didn't do too badly either.  Argh, I sound like I'm making excuses again, so I'll stop.  With scope, budget, resources vs output, all I'm saying is that, I actually do know a bit of what I'm talking about and what I'm doing. That's about it.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Byron Cavendish on October 22, 2015, 04:57:40 pm
Bottom line, if you guys fix harpoon and add skywhale hunting as an Alliance game mode, all will be settled and the world will join hands in harmony. I'll leave it that. :)
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Richard LeMoon on October 22, 2015, 05:03:20 pm
Do I feel lied to?

Nope.

In the previous game I worked on as a senior content writer (drafted from being a player and rising through the ranks), I was lied to. So, I know what it feels like to be lied to. This is not it.

There is a huge difference between intentional misleading and mistaken aspirations.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Hunter. on October 22, 2015, 05:51:53 pm
All I want is for Alliance to release so there are no more excuses for the skirmish mode content drought. I just want a clear answer of "we don't care anymore and are just trying to give small balance changes to keep it alive" or "now Alliance is out we are gonna switch back to skirmish focus". Either answer and I will keep playing till my community of friends who play dies.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: HamsterIV on October 22, 2015, 06:20:35 pm
Between Kickstarter, buying extra copies for my friends, and a few cosmetic purchases I have spend more on Guns of Icarus than I have on any other video game. Yet the dollar spent to hours of enjoyment ratio makes this game one of the best entertainment purchases I have ever made.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Dutch Vanya on October 22, 2015, 06:21:19 pm
I would like to inquire, for further explanation on how is matchmaker pointless, and how did it remove social elements. The statements puzzle me.
This game has a playerbase that is just too small for a matchmaker to work. The social element is about my personal experience. People used to socialize in lobbies, but now we are stuck in a matchmaking queue for 5+ minutes each game and rematches are rare, so you are forced to go back to the queue again.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Mattilald Anguisad on October 22, 2015, 06:26:43 pm
There is a pisece of wisdom about software development, I've learned some time ago. I forgot where, probably from The Trenches.

"Programmers can't estimate time, it will take them to program something. Whatever they say it will take them, multiply it by at least 2." - not exact words.

I believe this holds true for most of the producers that went to KS - I have personaly resigned to wait longer time. I wish there was a way to inform everyone about that.

Even Veterans of the industry, without a publisher to either give realistic dates or hold them to dealines failed to deliver on time.

Richard "Lord Brittish" Garriot: Shroud of the Avatar (1,919,275$/1,000,000$; Estimated delivery Oct 2014 - in alfa/beta for over a year at this point) - founder of and creator of most of Origin Systems games (including Ultima series)
Tim Schaefer: Double Fine Adventure/Broken Age (3,336,371$/400,000$; Estimated delivery Oct 2012 - act 1 delivered in Jan 2014, and after going over budget) - made many of the great Lucasarts adventure games
Chris Roberts: Star Citizen (total: >93,000,000$ out of ???; Estimated delivery Nov 2014  - beta for all pre-orders starting soon, current ETA 2016) - author of Wing Commander series and both Privateer games

... I could go on.

If allegations of over-micromanagement hold true, it means you either have wrong people, or you, Bubbles are (no mater how well intended) over-managing. It seems to be a bit of a common thread in some of the delayed KS campaigns.

Not saying that if they can be late that you can, but just trying to assert that software developers are terrible at estimating time needed.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on October 22, 2015, 09:16:18 pm
Either you give estimates and possibly miss or be off a bit or you make hard dead lines and churn out a Battlefield 4....either way ends in gamer wrath. Heck after working on VN development for two+ years now I can safely say, things rarely go right. I even had a talk with Bubbles recently about managing artists and found a lot of similar things I've dealt with.

Most of the complaints stem from a lack of knowledge from the consumer and expecting AAA huge team quality from a small team studio. Coding doesn't just miraculously happen. Fixing code isn't always easy. You don't know how many things might be dependent on one line of code or may cause problems elsewhere. In VN dev we started with Renpy and I'm moving to Tyrano simply because to troubleshoot Renpy engine means you have to compile and test from the start where Tyrano you can test scenes in engine on the fly. The amount of time saved is huge. But not all game engines make that easy.

From what I've seen with GOIO, I think a good chunk of the problem is Unity related, not Muse. Had other game engines been as open to develop for as Unity was when GOIO was made...maybe...maybe we might be better off right now. UE engine alone would have been great since it would have made user modding and content creation much easier. But it wasn't as open to dev on.

Then next Artists are some of the most problematic folk to ever work with. You don't always have the luxury to just simply have them on staff. If you have to commission them, they might tell you one estimate of time frame but end up taking double the time. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the delays Muse has is due to artist problems. That is literally what is holding back the Guns VN production atm...artist problems. We went into May/June ready to start production and summer hit, artists MIA.

From talking to Bubbles I get the same feeling I get when I've worked with VN dev. You don't really know how hard it is to churn these things out till you see it first hand.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Richard LeMoon on October 22, 2015, 10:47:59 pm
As a person that has seen first hand, I agree.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: -Anakin- on October 23, 2015, 08:53:03 am
I actually know the Depth devs.

Depth/goio crossover content pls, chivalry style?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=391159354&searchtext
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: DJ Logicalia on October 23, 2015, 09:08:29 am
I actually know the Depth devs.

Depth/goio crossover content pls, chivalry style?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=391159354&searchtext
PLEAASSSSEEEEE
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: The Mann on October 23, 2015, 09:19:58 am
I actually know the Depth devs.

Depth/goio crossover content pls, chivalry style?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=391159354&searchtext

+1
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: MightyKeb on October 23, 2015, 10:25:15 am
I actually know the Depth devs.

Depth/goio crossover content pls, chivalry style?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=391159354&searchtext

+1

When Water hazard actually gets a Water Hazard element...
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: -Anakin- on October 23, 2015, 10:46:16 am
Depth map set in water hazard with rock pinnacles everywhere and a crashed airship underwater <3
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Dev Bubbles on October 23, 2015, 11:17:28 am
I actually know the Depth devs.

Depth/goio crossover content pls, chivalry style?
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=391159354&searchtext

Oh we talked about that actually.  Would be really cool, but it takes a bit of work and logistics to make that happen for either of us.  I do want to start doing more of this with other devs though.  It's cool.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on October 23, 2015, 01:54:39 pm
Well I would say Payday crossover but they're busy destroying their community atm.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Dutch Vanya on October 23, 2015, 03:29:40 pm
The chivalry devs were the ones that initiated all the crossover content. they did it with depth, payday 2, killing floor 2 and even rocket league.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Byron Cavendish on October 23, 2015, 03:51:48 pm
warframe also did crossover with rocket league
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Kamoba on October 23, 2015, 03:54:17 pm
Wait, what exactly is this cross over stuff?! *gets reading glasses and starts researching*
I feel like I am a caveman right now... Not knowing what this is..
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Dutch Vanya on October 23, 2015, 03:56:10 pm
Wait, what exactly is this cross over stuff?! *gets reading glasses and starts researching*
I feel like I am a caveman right now... Not knowing what this is..
Mostly cosmetics in each game themed after the other one, but depth went the furthest and included an entire map set in a modern day version of one of the existing chivalry maps.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Kamoba on October 23, 2015, 04:07:27 pm
Okay that's pretty darn cool! :)
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Thomas on October 23, 2015, 05:14:50 pm
Well this topic got derailed pretty fast.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Richard LeMoon on October 23, 2015, 05:58:11 pm
Guns of Tantalus Online (https://www.google.com/search?q=steampunk+submarine&tbm=isch)?



Would play.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: UndyingUndyne on October 23, 2015, 06:13:56 pm
The problem with this game is that literally no one plays it anymore. You can have all the sales and DLC you want, but that's obviously not had a long term effect at all.

It's a shame, really. The concept is great, but all the flaws with this game have led it to having almost no dedicated players anymore. When new players do come by, all they manage to do is bring out the salty side of some players (myself included). It's probably not their fault. The game has a high learning curve and the tutorials are shit. But the salt winds up driving them away in the end, which in turn makes the game even more dead.

Oh well, it was a fun ride while it lasted.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Richard LeMoon on October 23, 2015, 06:53:57 pm
The problem with this game is that literally no one plays it anymore. You can have all the sales and DLC you want, but that's obviously not had a long term effect at all.

It's a shame, really. The concept is great, but all the flaws with this game have led it to having almost no dedicated players anymore. When new players do come by, all they manage to do is bring out the salty side of some players (myself included). It's probably not their fault. The game has a high learning curve and the tutorials are shit. But the salt winds up driving them away in the end, which in turn makes the game even more dead.

Oh well, it was a fun ride while it lasted.

The problem with this game is that literally no one plays it anymore. You can have all the sales and DLC you want, but that's obviously not had a long term effect at all.

with this game is that literally no one plays it anymore.

is that literally no one

literally

(http://imagesmtv-a.akamaihd.net/uri/mgid:file:http:shared:mtv.com/news/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Princess-Bride-you-keep-using-that-word-1432239123.gif)
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Piemanlives on October 23, 2015, 08:19:14 pm
No he's using that word correctly since they changed the definition a few years back, which still bothers me to this day.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: ShadedExalt on October 23, 2015, 08:38:45 pm
Guns of Tantalus Online (https://www.google.com/search?q=steampunk+submarine&tbm=isch)?



Would play.

(http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l9googbqHF1qa6vr1o1_1280.jpg)

Submarine map in Alliance/Adventure mode with this as a boss
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Richard LeMoon on October 23, 2015, 08:45:24 pm
Still not using it correctly (though the 'virtually' usage is still in strong contention as being 'correct') in conjunction with the word 'anymore', since the player base numbers have been relatively unchanged.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: BlackenedPies on October 23, 2015, 09:49:07 pm
There's usually over 200 players and I haven't seen under 100 in a while. I assume that's enough for an indie game.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Kamoba on October 24, 2015, 02:07:03 am
No he's using that word correctly since they changed the definition a few years back, which still bothers me to this day.

It bothers me too that they changed it to allow for exaggeration... And other words too.. It also bothers me that trendy internet words are being added to the dictionary in the hopes that the language can stay hip and cool, yet by the time the trendy words are added, all the hipsters and trendies are using a language entirely different... The only addition and change I've agreed to in the English dictionary for the past few years (give or take a year lets say 10) is Flabbergasted.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Schwalbe on October 24, 2015, 06:45:49 am
What the fuck people.

He brought up quite a valid point (at least for me, cause I wouldn't express what I see in this game better), and all you do is picking through his words?

I see. You are trying to keep the post derailed. Even letting it to die out would be more appropriate.


PS: I have a high fever and shitload of work, so lunacy is stronger with me than usual - though I mean not to cause a shitstorm.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Kamoba on October 24, 2015, 07:12:06 am
What the fuck people.

He brought up quite a valid point (at least for me, cause I wouldn't express what I see in this game better), and all you do is picking through his words?

I see. You are trying to keep the post derailed. Even letting it to die out would be more appropriate.


PS: I have a high fever and shitload of work, so lunacy is stronger with me than usual - though I mean not to cause a shitstorm.

He complained about the size of the player base in a rage like post, he made no constructive points on how things could be changes, simply bitched that they should be changed, thus I made point of.acknowledging his post myself and simply complained about the decaying state of my mother tongue. :)
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Kamoba on October 24, 2015, 08:12:06 am
Cant edit but realised I meant to say *not acknowledge his post.
Hope its clearer:)
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Schwalbe on October 24, 2015, 09:09:14 am
I'm sorry. I might be a bit too feverish at the point... how the hell was that a rage-like post? He pointed out the problems of this game today. He mentioned nothing about changing anything. It's passive-aggressive at best.

Also, he noticed what's happening in community after the introduction of a certain atrocity and some events, more specifically: a chain of events, cough cough COUGH fucking lungs:

Quote
The concept is great, but all the flaws with this game have led it to having almost no dedicated players anymore. When new players do come by, all they manage to do is bring out the salty side of some players (myself included). It's probably not their fault. The game has a high learning curve and the tutorials are shit. But the salt winds up driving them away in the end, which in turn makes the game even more dead.

Not constructive? Maybe. But pointing out the problem is still more constructive than eluding yourself that everything's fine or shit. -.- It's like that problem of half-full/empty glass - it's better to know whether it's filled with piss or not. -___-

That was what I meant. Thank you. Now, allow me to suffer the agony of learning all the shit for OS laboratories this monday, and Data Transmission for friday. Yeah, I'm pissed about that.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Richard LeMoon on October 24, 2015, 09:53:46 am
Let me translate that from Salty to English. (this is a roast post, don't take it seriously)


"literally no one plays anymore" = none of the people I used to play with play anymore, literally.

"You can have all the sales and DLC you want, but that's obviously not had a long term effect at all" = the player numbers are about the same, but my friends are still not playing.

"It's a shame, really." = I really miss my friends.

"but all the flaws with this game have led it to having almost no dedicated players anymore." = Why the hell is my green list not green? Where are you guys?

"When new players do come by, all they manage to do is bring out the salty side of some players (myself included)" = I am seriously salty and literally speak for the entire community of salts. We are thinking about starting a club. Salts of Icarus. It sort of reminds me of a club I wanted to start as a kid, but never really got around to it. We were going to ban all parents. I am sure it would have worked. That was sarcasm. I would have been sent to bed early, most likely.

"It's probably not their fault." = It is totally their fault for not learning the game before they play with me. Damn that makes me salty. I spent a hell of a lot of time getting from their level to mine. They could at least do the same. Nubs.

"The game has a high learning curve and the tutorials are shit." = I mean that literally.

"But the salt winds up driving them away in the end, which in turn makes the game even more dead." = I have no data to back that up, but it sounded awesome in my head. I figured, hey, why not add a bit of drama to the salt.

"Oh well, it was a fun ride while it lasted." = I will still play. GOIO, game of the year. Filthy casuals. I hope someone sees this post as bringing up valid points instead of focusing on my misuse of the word 'literaly'. I am sure my fellow salties will back me up.







Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Hunter. on October 24, 2015, 10:08:02 am
To be fair Richard, I was in a similar place when I came back about a month ago from a year long break or something. The only people I used to play with were TAW+a few, but all of TAW have quit and I had to meet new players and join new groups but I'm enjoying the game the same as I ever did. So get out there and talk to people in lobbies!
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Schwalbe on October 24, 2015, 10:12:08 am
If I am salty of anything or anyone, it's more the veterans of this game and community than anything else.

And there's more to this banter of his than you claim. Even if your roast is partially true.

But hey, what the fuck does that angsty asshole Schwalbe knows.

The more I... encounter people, the more bitter I become.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: UndyingUndyne on October 24, 2015, 07:25:12 pm
Oh god, what have I done? I unintentionally misused the word literally (I'm not an English major, sue me), and I managed to derail the entire thread!  :-[

In all seriousness, though, are we seriously going to discredit everything I said simply because I misused one single word? Granted, I was rather salty at the time I wrote it, but there are valid points in the argument.

Muse seems to be having difficulty in having the new players who do come around because of sales and DLC keep playing, thus increasing the average players online from the 200-400 there are now. I get it, this is an Indie game, so there aren't going to be League of Legends number of players online. But you would think that after all Muse has done to get their game out there, there would be a larger player base. Hell, after all those Youtubers played the game together several months back, I remember seeing 3,000+ players online. What happened to them all? Did experienced players drive them away with salt like I suggested? Or is there some other reason I've failed to consider?

Honestly, I haven't played the game nearly as much as a lot of you have. I was kinda hoping maybe you guys would discuss the issue more and suggest other problems, and then a proper discussion about solutions could happen.

But nope, let's just all focus on how that guy can't use the English language properly! That guy's such a scrub! He clearly doesn't have any credibility because of it, so let's just make fun of him instead of having a productive conversation!
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Hunter. on October 24, 2015, 08:03:34 pm
Personally, I've always seen the issue as to why players don't stick around as a marketing thing. I feel that the majority of players pick the game up with friends to crew a ship together. Eventually 1-2 players get bored and leave leaving 2-3 players playing with randoms and getting stomped and then leaving as well. If the game had less of a focus on joining up with established friends there would be more player retention as people would join and become a part of an existing in game community.

This is of course all theory from what I've heard from new players who stopped playing, personal experience and looking at how the game is marketed and piecing some stuff together - I have no marketing training nor factual figures so take it as you will.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Squidslinger Gilder on October 24, 2015, 08:26:32 pm
Its a PVP game that relies on teamwork. That is already two x marks by it. PVP and teamwork doesn't mesh with profits outside of MOBAs or twitch shooter crap and PVP denotes a certain scum factor of player that is more prone to being distracted by shiny objects than not. Generally speaking of course, not folks around here. If you post in forums you are automatically taken out of that category.

In some ways I think the horrific moe asian version of GOIO, which would have happened had a publisher picked up this title, would have been a better PVP seller. Simple because it would have been flashy and cheesy. Filled with fan service and all sorts of things designed to get attention and keep attention. We like to laugh at the idea of that but I could see it very easily becoming a seller in this Coddified world. You don't attract a huge audience with sim games, not these days at least.
Title: Re: Any other longtime supporters feel like they were lied to?
Post by: Richard LeMoon on October 24, 2015, 11:18:04 pm
What Gilder said. It is not the Salts driving new players away for the most part. It is the unique game play. Look at the highest selling and highest player retention games. They are formulaic to a fault, catering to exactly what people expect to play. GOIO can't do that because its core is different.