Guns Of Icarus Online
Main => Gameplay => Topic started by: Bart Cunningham on July 17, 2015, 04:11:56 pm
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Is MMR even used? I have fairly good stats with a majority of wins, and so do the people I join matchmaking in a crew with, so why is it I'm often placed into matches with nobody but brand new players who have no idea what they're doing? Even with only two hundred to five hundred people playing at one time, surely the matchmaking could be better?
I have no problem, honestly, helping new players get into the game and teach them what to do and even micromanage them if I need to because they don't have the experience to take initiative, but so often these new players don't seem to want to learn. They entirely ignore my help and honestly ruin my experience.
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There aren't nearly enough people in this game to actually use an MMR system. Seems to be if the games open you join it.
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Basically what daorks said, but on the prime time I find some lobbies where the players' levels are very close to each other (lowest about 10, highest like 20) so the MMR works if it gets enough players to work with.
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Matchmaker's first priority is to have a balance of total MMR across both teams. This means at low population you'll get a match it was able to create, with balanced MMR. Ideally when it's higher population and can create multiple matches at once, it tries to reduce the range of MMR in a match.
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Even when the population is high don't expect your MMR to place you in a lobby full of high level skilled players. It prefers to create teams with mixtures of high and low mmr teams on both sides, so everyone wins! Basically what happens is the low mmr wander off and the one or two high level ships duke it out.
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I wonder if pilots' MMR are differently handled - their weightage in a game is so much more.
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I wonder if pilots' MMR are differently handled - their weightage in a game is so much more.
I have yet to see this reflect in the underdog system (pilot swapping places with a crewmember and causing it to change too or from underdog), although it could be easily missed if it was a small effect. With the separate search system it may also try to matchmake the pilots of a match without reflecting it in overall team mmr.
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Matchmaker's first priority is to have a balance of total MMR across both teams. This means at low population you'll get a match it was able to create, with balanced MMR. Ideally when it's higher population and can create multiple matches at once, it tries to reduce the range of MMR in a match.
I played during 2-3k people online. I played during 50 people online.
saw no difference.
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That's because during those 2-3k spikes, it's all new people from the sales.
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I think the higher your MMR, the more likely the Match making system is going to put you on a crew of low MMR players when you join through the Solo Queue. Your high MMR boosts the team's total MMR to make you a match in the algorithm's eyes with an average team.
In a way you the Match Making system is not just putting you with novices, it is putting you with under-performing novices. Some times I attempt to teach, but considering the crew was flagged as under performing it is unlikely they were communicating or willing to listen to advice.
I find having a high MMR is detrimental to having an enjoyable experience in this game. I gladly take losses to lower my MMR so that I may be placed with better crew next time I enter the queue.
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I find having a high MMR is detrimental to having an enjoyable experience in this game. I gladly take losses to lower my MMR so that I may be placed with better crew next time I enter the queue.
THIS...so f%#king much. Sadly this is the main reason I've stopped playing unless it's clan vs clan scrims or tournaments.
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High level people can have low MMR and and low level people can have high MMR, it all depends on their recent wins and who they fought.
The reason you might think you get paired mainly with low level people is not entirely because you have high MMR and they have low MMR, it's just because there are a lot more low levels than high ones. There are more of them, so you are getting paired up with them more often.
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It isn't a question of level Ext. MMR probably correlates with two things pretty strongly. (1) Natural playing ability (which in GoI includes forgivable things like poor twitch reflexes, and less forgivable things like an unwillingness to build consensus or listen) and (2) Experience. Matchmaker tries to balance MMR, if you win a lot, as many experienced players do, then matchmaker will on average give you inexperienced allies, and it will give you naturally bad allies as it tries to balance the match. If it is having a hard time balancing the match, as it often does, it will give you both. That is to say it will pair you with the worst player it can find. Might be the worst because they are a bit slow on the uptake and have the reflexes of a drunk sloth, but are nice folks to have on board, or they might be the worst because they spend the entire lobby screaming into their mic 'ready up' and questioning the sexual interests of the rest of the lobby while you are trying to get them to bring heavy clip. If there is someone who is both in the queue then your 45 ass is likely getting them unless there is a stack better than you in the queue.
The problem being identified here isn't being paired with low level players, it is being paired with especially bad players; often those players are bad at GoI because they are, at best, uncommunicative, at worse, total asshats.
Without the secret sauce we cant say for certain but I share the observation given. If I get the crap kicked out of me in the SCS or have a run of games where I play without some of my regular crews then the novices the matchmaker throws my way suddenly get far more polite, at least until my MMR recovers. In terms of putting my money where my mouth is, you'll notice I tend to stick about in lobbies when one of the ships is a full Rydr stack, even with a low level ally. These are often some of the best experiences I have in GoI because you folks win more than I do and thus tend to act as asshat magnets.
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The system wouldn't be better if it paired high MMR together against lower MMR. The system doesn't search for a low MMR player to put on your ship, it puts in the first available player. The system should mix MMR instead of placing all high MMR on one ship. Use the friends feature.
I've had awesome pub crew recently who may have had low MMR but it was no indication of their quality as players. If you expect them to know everything then you may be disappointed, but the vast majority of players listen to good communication.
It's not true that the system gives you bad players due to MMR. They're regular pubs. The best way to filter the bad ones is to give recommended loadouts. If they don't accept then don't play with them period. MMR is no indication of player quality especially for newer players. Communicate and add friends.
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Blackened no one has suggested that the matchmaker should put all high MMR players on a single ship. That would be a bad idea.
Your anecdote is no more or less reliable than my own. Neither are sufficient to confirm or refute this hypothesis (yours isn't even inconsistent with it, and seems to require that you know the MMR of the players you are playing with when that is hidden).
I've outlined a mechanism by which MMR will pair you with low MMR players if you have a high MMR. I've also outlined what I think correlates with MMR. You say this mechanism isn't at play, well what part of the chain of reasoning here do you dispute? Does communication and community mindedness not make you a better GoI player? Is MMR not correlated with performance? Do very experienced players not have higher than average MMR? Will the matchmaker not mix very high and very low level MMR players to try and balance against a team with middling MMR?
Your advice is sound, but I think everyone here already does it. The comments are at the moment directed towards understanding the phenomena, not avoiding it.
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MMR is no correlation of the quality of players. The past performance of newer players being thrown around pub matches is no indication of performance on a tight ship. If a player with 20 matches has lost every match that is no indication of potential ability when they fly with experienced players.
MMR is experience. You might have to teach low MMR players but that doesn't mean they're bad. The system should mix experience with new players. The system prioritizes speed so it will put the first available crew in your ship. If there are multiple crews or multiple ships then MMR comes into play.
Friend everyone who listens. Be friendly and make them a part of the ship. Explain so they understand their job and mechanics. If you treat a player like they're bad then it's fun for no one. I have high MMR from my 5900 matches and this isn't an issue. Mixing gives experience.
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I would argue that Individual MMR doesn't have a place in a game where an individual's performance can not guarantee victory, but that is a different topic.
Low MMR players are not all bad, but most of them don't communicate, and may even have turned microphone audio off. The cases where I encounter a low MMR crew (one that gets set as Underdog when I move to spectate, or looses underdog when I move from spectate to their ship) that is actively communicating are extremely rare compared to the many mute/no text chat ships that meet the same criteria for low MMR. Trying to teach the mute crews feels as futile as speaking to a wall. In these cases I would rather let them make their mistakes and loose so that when I rejoin the solo Matchmaking Queue with a lower MMR.
My goal is to get on a fun ship with good people. Increasing my MMR by winning difficult games does not bring me closer to this goal. Instead I may not always bring my A game to an uncommunicative novice ship that in my estimation stand no chance of winning. It is my Meta Game of dealing with the Match Maker, sometimes it does not help to play the best I can. I see this as a failing of the over all design of the game.
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Sounds like something that could explain some of my experience. I play a lot of public lobby games and they tend pretty heavily towards winning and losing streaks, partly thats my mood etc but having a winning streak bias towards getting the worst of the novices tommorow and a losing streak the reverse fits what i see. If it is correct it would seem like MMR is changing too fast from an accuracy standpoint at least, im not sure slowing it down would solve anything though. IMO it should be biased against mixing players with too large a differential in experience, it just leads to frustration with excessive demands/insufficient skill.
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That's pretty much been the main criticism of matchmaking since it's release and the reason for the drop-off in vet activity.
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I don't know how MMR is weighted but I doubt losing a few matches has any effect. I assume it's mainly matches played. MM first prioritizes speed then it balances- which is exactly what it should do. If there's a slot open on your ship it will put the first open player in it. If there are multiple players then it balances by MMR. If the opponent MMR is higher then it will give you the higher MMR player. I don't see the problem.
Equating low MMR with being a bad player is false and unfair. Yes you'd rather have an experienced crew member but you either got the first random pub, or MM attempted to balance and gave you the lower MMR player. It helps balance the match and gives the new player valuable experience. If you don't want to teach new players then find friends.
There are occasional problems with players but you can reduce that. The easiest way is to friend every pub who listens and play with them. If you get an uncooperative player in match then tell them to leave and don't play with them again. Recrew and find a replacement. These are pubbing problems not MM problems.
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Blackened there are only two possibilities I can see here. Either you are right, and MMR doesn't correlate strongly with player ability, just experience. Since the stated goal of the MMR is to capture player ability if it is really only reflecting experience then MMR is already a serious failure and would do badly predicting match outcomes in a variety of circumstances. If it does capture player ability, then it will have precisely the impact that has been suggested by myself, Byron and Hamster. Either of these scenarios is pretty problematic.
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This isn't a complicated game but it's not intuitive. New players get thrown into disorganized ships with only a vague idea what to do and they often lose. The only way to learn is from experienced players.
There is no good way for MM to capture player ability but it can reflect experience. According to Muse over 75% of matches are statistically well balanced based on MMR and win rate. http://gunsoficarus.com/blog/chewing-on-some-stats/#more-7147